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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    The breaking of the helm was to to open the path to Azeroth.

    If Uther had done what he was supposed to, then Devos wouldn't have turned, and Bastion would just be suffering from the drought caused by the Arbiter being offline.

    So the Jailer's plan is pretty straightforward: get Anima from Revendreth, get power, open door to Azeroth, kill Titan. But Uther was an opportunity to start corrupting Kyrian, and the drought probably hastened the Jailer's plan significantly because Argus's death tossing the arbiter offline gave all the souls to him.
    That big red thing that disrupts the Arbiter is a huge surge of Anima sent by Denathrius. He's been the "inside man" all along.

    Argus had nothing to do with it.

    We also don't know how the timeline works in the Shadowlands, we still don't know how souls work exactly - like the cinematic implies that Uther went up right at the moment of death, but we know his ghost still helps us in the Halls of Reflection which implies that the part that helped us was the wounded part of his soul that was sheered off by Frostmourne.

    Basically there's a long game at work, but I'm not sure the "death of Azeroth's world soul" is the endgame yet either, I mean it might have been mentioned somewhere in the game but not that I can see yet.

    So we're still waiting to see what the Jailer's true plan is outside of the nebulous concept of "freedom."

  2. #62
    None of it makes sense.

    The Helm of Domination was forged to conquer Azeroth through the Lich King. Now suddenly it's destroyed to conquer Azeroth. If so, why create the helm in the first place? Lorelol.

    This is just as stupid as back in Cataclysm with the Tol'vir and the Curse of Flesh. The Old Gods used the Curse of Flesh on the titan stone races to corrupt them. Fast forward to Cataclysm and Deathwing, pawn of the Old Gods, reverted the Curse of Flesh and gave the Tol'vir back their stone form to corrupt them. Lorelore again.

    Sometimes it's almost as if the writers don't even know their own lore.

  3. #63
    I honestly think the entire expansion's intro was mishandled. My opinion is the Shadowlands and the expansions/content after would be more significant if we had faced a boss that beat us. This would have set a precedent for us actually being mortal and set up a show down with a significant power further down the road. The Lich King's role in this should have been to find a way to pull us back and help us return to the land of the living without being undead. Missed opportunity by Blizzard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    None of it makes sense.

    The Helm of Domination was forged to conquer Azeroth through the Lich King. Now suddenly it's destroyed to conquer Azeroth. If so, why create the helm in the first place? Lorelol.

    This is just as stupid as back in Cataclysm with the Tol'vir and the Curse of Flesh. The Old Gods used the Curse of Flesh on the titan stone races to corrupt them. Fast forward to Cataclysm and Deathwing, pawn of the Old Gods, reverted the Curse of Flesh and gave the Tol'vir back their stone form to corrupt them. Lorelore again.

    Sometimes it's almost as if the writers don't even know their own lore.
    Original lore was Kil'jaeden or Sargeras created the helm and cast Nerzhul to Azeroth to usher in a Legion invasion. It was retconned that the helm was made in the Shadowlands.

  4. #64
    So you can just create a helm that links two realities and just shatter it. Why not just shatter it directly?

  5. #65
    For Sylvanas to get to the Shadowlands.

  6. #66
    I think the Jailer wanted to quick & easy conquer Azeroth without lots of fighting. That would be achieved if he was able to convert all of his kidnapped leaders. With a Dark Thrall, Baine and Jaina alongside the soon to be Dark Anduin the Alliance and Horde would both willingly side with the Jailer and Sylvanas without any fighting, Azeroth would be his.

  7. #67
    As said, shock value. Its pretty obvious not gonna lie.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrowseer View Post
    As said, shock value. Its pretty obvious not gonna lie.
    Could be more than one thing, honestly. I wouldn't be surprised if they started with the 'shock value' and worked from there to craft the narrative, but it's just as likely it worked out that way as a secondary effect due to how they wanted to take the narrative.

    While shattering the helm made a rift between Azeroth and Shadowlands, I'm curious to think if that was actually a secondary goal. There has been some hinting that the Jailor has the capacity to exert or manifest his power/control through the helm, which would suggest that Bolvar has been inhitibing whatever the Jailor's initial designs were for the use of the helm (even without direct knowledge of the Jailor's plan, Bolvar tells us that he's been holding the undead in check and fighting against the influence of the helm). From the limited information we do have through the campaign questline, even the helm fragment allows Bolvar some interference or at least insight into the Jailor's dealings. Basically, it could be inferred that breaking the helm could've had two goal, in no particular order: create the rift to Shadowlands, and get rid of a tool that was meant to assist your plan that is currently inhibiting it or not in your full control.

    There's still too much we don't know about the plan, aside from breadcrumbs and vague hints. If I had to hazard a guess, they're trying to use Anduin as a leader of the Jailor's army, and the Helm of Domination is being replaced by the new weapon... and it's functionality is probably buffed and/or includes some sort of Frostmourne-esque functionality. Why are they picking him? May be his affinity towards Light/Void, as other tidbits to indicate that their influence is still present even in the Shadowlands. Honestly, as I already say, there's still way too much we don't know.
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  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    That's what happens when you judge the entire story by only looking at parts of it. I can do it too. Watch:

    WoW is exactly the same as a data entry job. You do nothing but sit at a computer pushing buttons.
    Why do you assume there is more history? or that history will ever be complete?

    Remember the Cinflicto Maiev X Tyrande from W3 .. Well, blizzard forgot.
    You remember Wration's plan to stop the Legion ... for suddenly it's to stop Nzoth.
    Remember when he was BFA AND they said the Horde was going to have reason to go to war and burn Teldrazzil. Well, I'm done and we still don't have those reasons.

    This could be perfectly all of History or that the end of History will come in 15 years with an "if you remember that ... forget it".

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Anduin.

    /10chars
    How is Anduin a weapon?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    That big red thing that disrupts the Arbiter is a huge surge of Anima sent by Denathrius. He's been the "inside man" all along.
    now if that truly was the case, blizz wouldnt be making all this mystery around it. we would already know if it was simply "denathrius threw his sword at it LOL", there would be no point in adding all that drama, all that talk of the arbiter going "mysteriously inactive" etc etc
    the fact that blizz deliberately keeps it a mystery, with no clear answer what exactly happened, indicates its supposed to be a "surprise" (never mind that nothing blizz comes up with will be a real surprise for the players)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deferionus View Post

    Original lore was Kil'jaeden or Sargeras created the helm and cast Nerzhul to Azeroth to usher in a Legion invasion. It was retconned that the helm was made in the Shadowlands.
    this is basically it. the helm was originally not some "vessel of domination" that can shatter the barrier to the afterlife. it was simply part of a demon-crafted armor to hold ner'zhuls LK soul. until ner'zhul said fuck it and did his own thing. everything else is just retcon, and theres no other way to describe it.
    speaking of the armor btw, it seems blizz has fully forgotten about it. the helm and frostmourne were now crafted by the runecarver, but theres no mention of the armor that came with the helm. might as well say it doesnt exist at this point.
    Last edited by Houle; 2021-01-12 at 06:54 AM.
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  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Your Mommy View Post
    How is Anduin a weapon?
    His connection with the light is strong enough that it can breach realities. As such he's probably a conduit that can be used to shatter those barriers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    now if that truly was the case, blizz wouldnt be making all this mystery around it. we would already know if it was simply "denathrius threw his sword at it LOL", there would be no point in adding all that drama, all that talk of the arbiter going "mysteriously inactive" etc etc
    the fact that blizz deliberately keeps it a mystery, with no clear answer what exactly happened, indicates its supposed to be a "surprise" (never mind that nothing blizz comes up with will be a real surprise for the players)
    It's an enormous red explosion of anima.

    We have only one area with red anima.

    We know Denathrius was stockpiling the stuff in prep for his betrayal to the Maw.

    We know that he'd be willing to do it, whether it be a knot of anima or just a big pile of twisted up ready to explode souls (if you're not a vampy boy they cover that if you draw the anima too much from a soul or push the sins of other souls upon one that it'll become overloaded and a danger to everything around it or that deals with it.)

    8.1 will roll around and the Arbiter will wake up.

  13. #73
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Don't see any reason why he couldn't. His Mawsworn were able to leave to abduct the faction leaders and raise fallen Scourge and cause other mischief.
    Yeah but they're Kyrian. That's sort of a trait of Kyrian and Valkyr - that they can enter and leave the Shadowlands at will. Studying the Kyrian is one of the reasons the Jailer-aligned Maldraxxi invaded Bastion, it's only just being touched on with last week's Necrolord renown stuff though.

  14. #74
    The Patient BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Are you serious? You don't see the large hole in the sky it created? You still don't understand why it was broken? Tsk..tsk...tsk....
    Moderators on this site are, to put it nicely, morons. They believe any opinion contrary to popular ones are either trolling or flaming or baiting. They can not comprehend the fact that there can be people who would utterly detest what they like or million others like. Well, it is their site and their "Authoretaeh" but they are morons nonetheless.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    The point was shattering the sky so the Maw could invade Azeroth.

    I'm quite sure the next raid tier (9.1) will be on Azeroth, repelling the Scourge and Maw forces.
    But why not waiting for the Jailer to escape and prepare his troops to be ready before shattering the veil then ... ?

    Like you wanna escape from prison so you ask your friend to bomb the shit out of the jail's gate, but you're not even out of your cell yet, that just seems the better way to have a shitload of reinforcements preventing you to actually escape.

    But I guess we'll soon have the explanation of - wait for it - IT WAS THE JAILER'S PLAN ALL ALONG, to bring us there so we'd bring the ONLY TOOL IN THE FREAKING UNIVERSE that could possibly set him free - hehe what a subverted expectation, we totally did not see that recently - hm hm Azshara hm hm.

  16. #76
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdna View Post
    Man, the story in Shadowlands makes me very sad. It reads like an terrible fanfic, let me elaborate on that. It seems like WoW has been taken over by some people who are super jealous of the old Warcraft team, so they made an expansion that changes (or expands) everything for - in their opinion - better:

    1) Remember the scourge? They were cool, with their plagues and skeletons and necromancers and stuff. Well, in SL you meet the REAL source of necromantic magic, were the REAL power is. The things you've seen in the past are just pale imitations of our new faction.
    2) Remember how cool the Night Elves were? With their tree houses and forest buildings and nature powers? Well, in SL you meed the REAL source of this forest shit, were the REAL power is...
    3) Remember the Lich King? Well, in SL you meet the REAL power behind the Helm, this Jailer dude...

    More examples can be found if you look hard enough. Of course that WoW story was never that great but making an expac with better, and stronger, and more important characters than the old ones we loved seems like a new low for the blizzard story team. Now we just need to wait for the Sylvanas redemption arc that will put the final nail in the coffin for the Warcraft lore.
    ??? seriously?
    Your complaint is that things come from other things?



    The same can literally be said for every expansion. especially since if we had for example an expansion we travel to the past (wod) go to another planet (legion/tbc) or a new continet (mop/cata/wotlk) you just find new things that explain old things...


    We are exploring death, a realm that existed long before these things we as players have been seeing, so yeah thats how it works...


    its like complaining about evolution.


    "Remember the lizard, they are cool with their tails and legs and tongues, well in the museum you will meet the real source of the lizards genes, the things you see pale in comparison!"
    "Remember the shark, they are cool with their fins and gills and teeth, well in the museum you will meet the real source of the sharks genes, the things you see pale in comparison!"
    "Remember the Bird, they are cool with their Feathers and beaks and wings, well in the museum you will meet the real source of the birds genes, the things you see pale in comparison!"


    yeah? The lore of necromatic magic has ALWAYS spoken about a realm of death, so yeah... makes fucking sense that their power GASP would come from the realm of death.


    again its like complaining g and crying that we saw super strong demons on argus

    "Remember the demons? They are cool with their fel and corruption and power, well on argus you will meet the real source of demonic power, the things you see pale in comparison!"

    Like how much more do you need to just make up things to complain about?

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    Are you serious? You don't see the large hole in the sky it created? You still don't understand why it was broken? Tsk..tsk...tsk....
    So the horde and alliance that defeated the legion, old gods and titans could also disrupt his plan? The last time we made a big hole in the sky we jailed fucking Sargeras.

  18. #78
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    i addressed that. my point is why. it was done on the jailer's order, but honestly, why lol, Denathrius was going to siphon anima anyway. the machine of death was already broken. The drought was already in effect.

    If anything we mucked his plan up by him having sylvanas break it.
    Again we already explained it to you, the veil between the realms of death and life needed to be shattered so that the jailor could escape his bonds banishing him to the maw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    So the horde and alliance that defeated the legion, old gods and titans could also disrupt his plan? The last time we made a big hole in the sky we jailed fucking Sargeras.
    i mean we didnt do shit to sargeras, literally fucking nothing, it was the titans that jailed sargeras. we just held argus off the titans till they could bind him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    now if that truly was the case, blizz wouldnt be making all this mystery around it. we would already know if it was simply "denathrius threw his sword at it LOL", there would be no point in adding all that drama, all that talk of the arbiter going "mysteriously inactive" etc etc
    the fact that blizz deliberately keeps it a mystery, with no clear answer what exactly happened, indicates its supposed to be a "surprise" (never mind that nothing blizz comes up with will be a real surprise for the players)



    this is basically it. the helm was originally not some "vessel of domination" that can shatter the barrier to the afterlife. it was simply part of a demon-crafted armor to hold ner'zhuls LK soul. until ner'zhul said fuck it and did his own thing. everything else is just retcon, and theres no other way to describe it.
    speaking of the armor btw, it seems blizz has fully forgotten about it. the helm and frostmourne were now crafted by the runecarver, but theres no mention of the armor that came with the helm. might as well say it doesnt exist at this point.
    the armor was never really special, it was just to help nerzhul hold his form, really the helmet was like literally the only fucking part that really had power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    His connection with the light is strong enough that it can breach realities. As such he's probably a conduit that can be used to shatter those barriers.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's an enormous red explosion of anima.

    We have only one area with red anima.

    We know Denathrius was stockpiling the stuff in prep for his betrayal to the Maw.

    We know that he'd be willing to do it, whether it be a knot of anima or just a big pile of twisted up ready to explode souls (if you're not a vampy boy they cover that if you draw the anima too much from a soul or push the sins of other souls upon one that it'll become overloaded and a danger to everything around it or that deals with it.)

    8.1 will roll around and the Arbiter will wake up.
    actually we dont know if it was a "red explosion of anima" just that it was a red thing, it coulda been a soul, it coulda been denathrius, we dont know yet, just because its red does not mean its denathrius, there is MANY more red things in the wow universe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morssoe View Post
    So you can just create a helm that links two realities and just shatter it. Why not just shatter it directly?
    If you have an item that makes a portal to your house, and you wanted to connect your house to your friends house, do you really think just using it.. in your house, would acheive the goal of making a portal... from your friends house... to your house...

    no he needed it to be broken on azeroth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    None of it makes sense.

    The Helm of Domination was forged to conquer Azeroth through the Lich King. Now suddenly it's destroyed to conquer Azeroth. If so, why create the helm in the first place? Lorelol.

    This is just as stupid as back in Cataclysm with the Tol'vir and the Curse of Flesh. The Old Gods used the Curse of Flesh on the titan stone races to corrupt them. Fast forward to Cataclysm and Deathwing, pawn of the Old Gods, reverted the Curse of Flesh and gave the Tol'vir back their stone form to corrupt them. Lorelore again.

    Sometimes it's almost as if the writers don't even know their own lore.
    seriously?

    Why create the helm?
    Idk maybe to conquer azeroth, and oh hey if you fail at conqeuring azeroth yo ucan then destroy the helm to give us another chance at destroying azeroth

    how is that "lorelol"

    Imagine making a weapon to destroy your enemy, but if you cant cut them down with it, you can snap it in 2 to call a massive force of allies to come help you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    That big red thing that disrupts the Arbiter is a huge surge of Anima sent by Denathrius. He's been the "inside man" all along.

    Argus had nothing to do with it.

    We also don't know how the timeline works in the Shadowlands, we still don't know how souls work exactly - like the cinematic implies that Uther went up right at the moment of death, but we know his ghost still helps us in the Halls of Reflection which implies that the part that helped us was the wounded part of his soul that was sheered off by Frostmourne.

    Basically there's a long game at work, but I'm not sure the "death of Azeroth's world soul" is the endgame yet either, I mean it might have been mentioned somewhere in the game but not that I can see yet.

    So we're still waiting to see what the Jailer's true plan is outside of the nebulous concept of "freedom."
    1. Oh shit you work at blizzard? this is the only way you would know 100% what the lore is that we have 0 way to tell for sure yet!

    2. did... did you watch the cinematic? The cinematic literally shows uther got torn in 2. one half went to bastion, the other half of his soul was kept in the blade, which is the one we see...



    yes, there is many long games at play, many that have many backup plans incase something goes wrong, lich king fails at conquering azeroth? well then i can get someone else to shatter the helm and let my men get in and possibly do the job

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    i mean we didnt do shit to sargeras, literally fucking nothing, it was the titans that jailed sargeras. we just held argus off the titans till they could bind him.
    Before the hole we did in the sky :
    Sargeras happy, infinite demon army who can be rez non stop, titan pantheon down, titans corrupted one by one. Everything going great.

    After we made a hole in the sky to invade the legion homeworld without any battleplan:
    Sargeras in jail, demon army not infinite anymore, pantheon free and happy, titans not corrupted, demon worldsoul killed, legion homeworld conquered.

    I don't know, I kinda see something here. Like it was just absolutely and completely, obviously JUST because of us.
    And yeah it's not like there are no titan level nice creature who allready jailed the jailer once, free, who you are litteraly helping right now.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    They said we would not be leaving the shadowlands for any major patches. So any new content would be in the shadowlands, but some quests would have us leave.
    Also he is not invading, if you read the actual convenient campaign you would understand what his plan is and it has nothing to do with invading.

    It was not me who claimed he wants to invade.

    Also my covenant campaign has literally NOTHING to do with the Jailor at all, at least up until now.

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