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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    Shadowlands is a huge narrative mistake.

    1) it comes out of the blue and is not tied to the wow lore
    Shadowlands have been mentioned off and on over the years, though not in great detail. So not out of the blue, though teh vast majority of it is indeed new.

    2) it doesn't make any metaphysical sense for death to be a physical realm
    Why not? An actual realm of death, one that can be visited, is one of the most ancient story tropes around, present in countless mythologies. Heroes going to and coming from the land of the dead is a time-honored tradition in stories. Orpheus, Heracles, Gilgamesh, Izanagi, the list goes on.
    Last edited by Kiivar86; 2021-01-12 at 03:17 PM.

  2. #22
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    Shadowlands is a huge narrative mistake.

    1) it comes out of the blue and is not tied to the wow lore
    2) it doesn't make any metaphysical sense for death to be a physical realm
    3) it makes death irrelevant , particularly the countless player deaths which suddenly also make no sense since we've been ressurecting on Azeroth and outland for 15th years instead of going straight to the shadowlands.
    4) players going in and out of the maw freely is simply a stupid concept

    The people responsible for the narrative at blizzard should be fired for this klusterf uck of a story.
    1. It's been a part of the WoW cosmos for years actually, long before this expansion was even a thing.
    2. That's an opinion
    3. I'm fairly certain player death isn't considered canon, unlike in Destiny
    4. Whatever gave us the ability to use the waystone, is reason enough that we can go in and out of the maw freely.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethas View Post
    Jaina and Co are also mortals, but they are unable to go in and out of the Maw at will.
    That's because, uh, they were kinda imprisoned

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    When Ursoc died in Ardenweald, he is dead forever. But when we die in Ardenweald, it doesn't matter.
    Ursoc didn't die in Ardenweald. He died in Azeroth and went to Ardenweald to be reborn. But instead of letting him be reborn, they used his Anima to keep Ardenweald from collapsing.

    When the player "dies" in the Shadowlands, they don't die like mortals normally would because living things aren't supposed to die in the Shadowlands. Canonically we don't die at all (but obviously we need to be able to revive to keep playing).

    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    When Arthas was casted into Maw, he couldn't escape. But players can travel in and out of Maw like nothing.
    Arthas died on Azeroth and he probably didn't have that special something something that the player character has that lets us use the waystone. There is a reason why Jaina, Baine and Thrall need to be with us after they escape Torghast. It's because only the player character can use the waystone. And even if Arthas could use the waystone, who is to say he is free to do so (not captured) or even knows about it? Bolvar never told us about it before we went in so we can only assume being Lich King doesn't grant you the extra knowledge.

    You complain about things not making sense, but it seems that's just because you didn't pay attention.

  5. #25
    What makes even less sense is that we're in the afterlife, trying to prevent the death of our planet and yet we're still fighting each other for some reason.
    Khadgar: "Well Zergy, are you armed?"

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  6. #26
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    That's because, uh, they were kinda imprisoned
    Event if they weren't, they wouldn't be able to leave.

    We are able to come and go as we please because of our, as of yet, unexplained connection to the Waystone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethas View Post
    We still don't know where covenant people who die in Shadowlands go. Apart from Maldraxxus, as far as I got it, they just reforge the body and infuse it with the fallen spirit. Other covenants I don't know. And it seems strange that souls can die in SL at all indeed.
    They don't "go" anywhere.
    They cease to exist and their anima dissipates into the realms.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    2) it doesn't make any metaphysical sense for death to be a physical realm
    This is a fictional fantasy world if you haven't noticed.
    A concept like "Death" is whatever the writers want it to be.


    Death being its own physical dimension where things go once dead is literally the oldest trope to ever exist.

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  7. #27
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    How can you try and make sense of this, when raidbosses die and are back next week. Sometimes even in a "merely a setback" kinda way in another Instance or x-pac. Dungeon bosses die and are back the next reset etc?

    Unless you post and discuss this as canon in the Lore forum.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiivar86 View Post
    Shadowlands have been mentioned off and on over the years, though not in great detail. So not out of the blue, though teh vast majority of it is indeed new.
    "New" is fine. The game can't exist without new lore.

    The problem is the new lore usually ties back to some old lore, or fits some piece of a grand puzzle. Shadowlands doesn't. There were no breadcrumbs leading up to it beyond Sylvanas' inane fall to villainy. (Which had no sense to it whatsoever.) Nothing could be seen coming, it was just some stupid "Gotcha, you thought we were going here but we actually went SOMEWHERE ELSE with the story!" bullshit Blizzard decided to pull in BfA that nobody appreciated one bit. (Rightfully so.) The lore doesn't fit a grand puzzle - It was built SPECIFICALLY for this inane story of Sylvanas, and will exit equally as useless as WoD's dimension ended up being. (So as to say, we'll probably recruit the Kyrian as an Allied Race later, and never revisit the Shadowlands nor any of it's lore ever again.)

    The problem, is that the entire realm of the Shadowlands can't have any ties to Azeroth, because it as a realm had absolutely no ties to Azeroth prior to Shadowlands - Which is when we, presumably, will be resolving the story going on in the Shadowlands and moving on to the next big thing, thus cutting ties with the Shadowlands for good.

    Why not? An actual realm of death, one that can be visited, is one of the most ancient story tropes around, present in countless mythologies. Heroes going to and coming from the land of the dead is a time-honored tradition in stories. Orpheus, Heracles, Gilgamesh, Izanagi, the list goes on.
    But those realms of the dead aren't ruled by denizens of the dead. They are ruled by Gods, deities, beings with power over death but are immortal, and thus cannot die. In these stories, Death is not a force - It is an inevitability. All living things die. That's all there is to death in these stories, what happens after is your soul is taken to it's resting place for eternity. These resting places exist, not because of the energy of Death, but because they exist to house souls. They were built in these stories specifically for that purpose, in an otherwise-normal location.

    WoW is attempting to make death a force of creation. Which... Yeah. You read that right. Death as a force of creation. The cosmic forces chart has always only included forces of creation, which assisted in the creation of the universe. If Death creates and doesn't destroy, then it's not exactly very "death"-like, is it? Death is meant to apply to the slow decay and eventual cessation of existance of living beings, it does not have an energy source, it is the eventual running out of energy that causes Death. This isn't how WoW has decided to take it, and that causes confusion VERY easily. Hence why we have "natural beings of the Shadowlands" that cannot die because they exist in the realm of death. Hence why we have "beings who were born in the realm of death." That in itself is a contradiction.

    The realm of death is meant to be a realm which houses the souls of the dead. Their eternal resting place, whether it be for better or worse than life. That's not what WoW made it, WoW made it a realm with it's own political structure, it's own denizens, and it's own heirarchy - Which makes it no different than life. It's not much a realm of the dead if it's just life 2.0.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-01-13 at 07:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Niroshi View Post
    You can leave the Maw only through their device but nobody else can unless they're with you.
    Well, you can hearth out, preferably using the Brewfest stone, or as a mage/engineer teleport as desired.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergy View Post
    What makes even less sense is that we're in the afterlife, trying to prevent the death of our planet and yet we're still fighting each other for some reason.
    To the contrary, I think that is the most realistic thing about it all, lol. IRL, if aliens invade for our resources, I don't think world peace is the first step taken. I will agree that logically, it should be.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    To the contrary, I think that is the most realistic thing about it all, lol. IRL, if aliens invade for our resources, I don't think world peace is the first step taken. I will agree that logically, it should be.
    Logically, it makes sense, until it hits the wall of "whose orders do we take?" That's generally where world peace tends to struggle, as we can't get the whole of the world to agree on any one thing at all. And it's hard to argue with - There are definitely factions around the world today who I would not like having a say at the eventual World Council, but it's not right to deny them a voice either.

    That's why it tends to fail. It is the logical first step, but that step is always too difficult to overcome, hence why we have not yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  12. #32
    Another fun idea. Prior to the Old Gods we were made by Titan forges and were immortal. They created the Curse of Flesh which then corrupted immortal beings and granted them an ability to decay and die. Which in itself is fun because it means in some sense Old Gods are somehow manipulated the very Purpose and forced Titan creations to go to Shadowlands. Very significant feat for mere tumours of the Void.

  13. #33
    Scarab Lord Motorman's Avatar
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    From my understanding, we all died and because we were bad we are now punished by going to shadowlands and doing Toreghast every week. Good people were exonerated and can play other games now.
    WoW forums in a nutshell:
    m8 i've been around since Feb 2005, I know it all.
    i outgrew the games playerbase.
    So I was using a gold dupe hack. I don't know why i was banned for this. It is so unfair.
    People need an incentive to play content. "Its fun!" is simply not enough.
    Btw iam multi glad so plz dont tell me how to play, kkthxbye

  14. #34
    I think we just have to look at other mythology for answers for example the Vikings, who believe in Valhalla, a place were you get drunk and fight constantly, Basically, the place is a zone where you fight in a never ending battle field, but you dont die, you might "Fall" in battle, but when the battle is over, you sort of get reset. I think its the same idea, you dont die, you just "Fall" and return eventually.

    In the case of Villians, it could be they suffer a "True death" because they are killed by a mortal instead of fellow spirits

  15. #35
    Scarab Lord Motorman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergy View Post
    What makes even less sense is that we're in the afterlife, trying to prevent the death of our planet and yet we're still fighting each other for some reason.
    Thats the "immortal human spirit" in action. Ofc we could take the direction of movie 6th sense where the boy says: "I see dead people. They don't know they re dead". If we don't know that we are "dead" then we act as we would alive. Around us we have spirits etc that are "more dead" so this could be factoring in that "well im in the land of the dead but im not dead".

    Obviously there is nothing that actually makes sense but in a game stuff shouldn't make sense anyway. I mean, if someone likes Shadowlands as a place (or as an expansion) they could say "why the hell save the old world (expansion) exist and go back to it, I like it here. Can it be done? It would literally mean not play the game to abstain from actions that could save Azeroth

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Romanthony View Post
    I think we just have to look at other mythology for answers for example the Vikings, who believe in Valhalla, a place were you get drunk and fight constantly, Basically, the place is a zone where you fight in a never ending battle field, but you dont die, you might "Fall" in battle, but when the battle is over, you sort of get reset. I think its the same idea, you dont die, you just "Fall" and return eventually.

    In the case of Villians, it could be they suffer a "True death" because they are killed by a mortal instead of fellow spirits
    One thing that always "troubled" me with wow and in some ways was fixed (take for instance cata SW and post cata SW) was what happens to the places we "free" as expansions go. Understandably resources cannot be wasted to show the lands peaceful and everything is ok and all problems are gone but I think that portals to older zones should be opened through a generic quest that tells you its a timewalking zone you enter aka you enter the old world as it was and not as you left it when you ended all evuls of the expansion.

    Strictly talking from a "follow the lore and make sense of it" logic in reality I enjoy every iteration of the game as is without questioning too much in terms of what makes sense and what not.
    WoW forums in a nutshell:
    m8 i've been around since Feb 2005, I know it all.
    i outgrew the games playerbase.
    So I was using a gold dupe hack. I don't know why i was banned for this. It is so unfair.
    People need an incentive to play content. "Its fun!" is simply not enough.
    Btw iam multi glad so plz dont tell me how to play, kkthxbye

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Corydon View Post
    I read every quest text when I do it for the first time and like seeing cinematic etc. but I did not get in the game the details you are listing. (I have only played Kyrian though if that matters.) I think the game could do better in explaining all this unless I must have been asleep while questing for the most part

    Anyway, thanks for your response!
    It's explained very early on in Oribos. The Arbiter's function is to judge souls and send them to the most suitable of many afterlives. The 4 we quest through serve special functions within the Shadowlands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Don't try to make any sense of it, because it doesn't.

    When Ursoc died in Ardenweald, he is dead forever. But when we die in Ardenweald, it doesn't matter.

    When Arthas was casted into Maw, he couldn't escape. But players can travel in and out of Maw like nothing.

    Nothing is logic here, everything is just plot armor.
    We're special cases because we are alive and still anchored to the material realm, but congratulations on the stupidest use of the phrase "plot armour" I've ever seen, as if practically all video game characters don't have "plot armour."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    Shadowlands is a huge narrative mistake.

    1) it comes out of the blue and is not tied to the wow lore
    2) it doesn't make any metaphysical sense for death to be a physical realm
    3) it makes death irrelevant , particularly the countless player deaths which suddenly also make no sense since we've been ressurecting on Azeroth and outland for 15th years instead of going straight to the shadowlands.
    4) players going in and out of the maw freely is simply a stupid concept

    The people responsible for the narrative at blizzard should be fired for this klusterf uck of a story.
    WoW is basically following comic-book logic (and has been for ages) so having the afterlife be a place you can visit fits the themes and aesthetics. It's a system that was hinted at in Legion with Odyn and Helya and ties in to death and undeath with the Scourge.

    It's also something that we as heroes of Azeroth should be aware of as Spirit Healers allow us to return to life when slain, showing there is more to death than the simple cessation of life.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zergy View Post
    What makes even less sense is that we're in the afterlife, trying to prevent the death of our planet and yet we're still fighting each other for some reason.
    That was the stupidest part of Battle for Azeroth by far, especially when NPC factions started picking sides.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    Shadowlands is a huge narrative mistake.

    3) it makes death irrelevant , particularly the countless player deaths which suddenly also make no sense since we've been ressurecting on Azeroth and outland for 15th years instead of going straight to the shadowlands.


    The people responsible for the narrative at blizzard should be fired for this klusterf uck of a story.
    Player death isn't part of the story its a game mechanic, the only time we have died in game was when Lich King killed us. When we die doing raids/quests/open world/pvp none of that is us actually dying. At least that's how I've always understood it.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Romanthony View Post
    I think we just have to look at other mythology for answers for example the Vikings, who believe in Valhalla, a place were you get drunk and fight constantly, Basically, the place is a zone where you fight in a never ending battle field, but you dont die, you might "Fall" in battle, but when the battle is over, you sort of get reset. I think its the same idea, you dont die, you just "Fall" and return eventually.

    In the case of Villians, it could be they suffer a "True death" because they are killed by a mortal instead of fellow spirits
    My personal take is that the deceased start their careers in the Shadowlands in a form similar to their living one but as they die they lose a little of themselves take on a bit of the form of the denizens of their particular afterlife. That's why recently lost souls like Draka and Kael'thas are recognisable but given a few centuries and some additional deaths they may be indistinguishable from any other souls in their realms.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    3) it makes death irrelevant , particularly the countless player deaths which suddenly also make no sense since we've been ressurecting on Azeroth and outland for 15th years instead of going straight to the shadowlands.
    Death has always been irrelevant in WoW. We (the players) operate according to the game mechanics that NPCs do not, but to state that outright would make no sense, so we're left with a tension over what "death" is.

    And who cares anyway? Game mechanics don't need a deep explanation.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Aynen View Post
    When demons die, they go to the Twisting Nether.
    When the minions of light or shadow die, they reappear in their respective realms.
    When mortals die, they go to the Shadowlands.

    Makes ya think, did mortal souls actually originate there, or are other shenanigans going on? Perhaps the story will tell us sometime in the future.

    Regardless, when creatures die in their "own" realm, they are gone forever.
    But the mortal races we know are Titan creations, which is the cosmic force of Order. Combined with the Curse of Flesh by the Old Gods, cosmic force of Chaos / Void.

    The only creatures that naturally come from the Shadowlands should die when killed in their realm. So that means all the creatures we meet this expansion and their leaders. Not us, we're not from the Shadowlands.

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