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  1. #1

    Shadowlands logic in being dead!?

    Hey folks!

    I find some Shadowlands "mechanics" kinda disturbing or not explained well enough. So when a person on (e.g.) Azeroth dies, their soul (and apparently their body appearance) will go to the Shadowlands into one of the four destinations and be there forever as a reward/punishment for their actions they did when they were alive...

    ...until they die in the Shadowlands. What then?

    I know we are the champion of Azeroth and different rules apply to us. We basically cannot die at all. Although we have to act as if we could.

    But all the other characters (NPC) are basically dead when they die. All those Maldraxxus or Kyrian or whatever fighters that are dying all the time? They're dead for good. I understand beings have to die in the Shadowlands or else it would fill up rather quickly...

    But overall it sounds to me like every person has basically two lives. First one on Azeroth (or Draenor or Argus or any other "SL-connected realm") and the second one in the Shadowlands. And when they die there it's all over. Or... isn't? (Read those last two words in Vsauce Michael Stevens style.)

    Sounds a little weird to me but maybe I'm not fully getting it.


    On a side note: I think Sylvanas wants to fiddle with this and change mechanics. Not sure in which way but she has an agenda of course.

  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans
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    It’s been explained already in other threads and the game.
    There’s more then 4 realms of death, technically we gone to alteast 7if we counting the dungeon de other side and pass expansions, but they can’t actually show infinite realms cause of technical limitations. The 4 we help are the prime dimensions.
    Not all the creatures in sl ever lived to begin with, some of them are creations of the realms like drudges,stewards and those nightfae.
    It been shown that sl isn’t the final stop for some souls, some get sent to nightfae area to be reincarnated, and probably other unnamed areas.
    And while total destruction can happen to a soul in theory they should be safe forever if the realms were working properly.

  3. #3
    I read every quest text when I do it for the first time and like seeing cinematic etc. but I did not get in the game the details you are listing. (I have only played Kyrian though if that matters.) I think the game could do better in explaining all this unless I must have been asleep while questing for the most part

    Anyway, thanks for your response!

  4. #4
    Field Marshal Aynen's Avatar
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    When demons die, they go to the Twisting Nether.
    When the minions of light or shadow die, they reappear in their respective realms.
    When mortals die, they go to the Shadowlands.

    Makes ya think, did mortal souls actually originate there, or are other shenanigans going on? Perhaps the story will tell us sometime in the future.

    Regardless, when creatures die in their "own" realm, they are gone forever.

  5. #5
    Don't try to make any sense of it, because it doesn't.

    When Ursoc died in Ardenweald, he is dead forever. But when we die in Ardenweald, it doesn't matter.

    When Arthas was casted into Maw, he couldn't escape. But players can travel in and out of Maw like nothing.

    Nothing is logic here, everything is just plot armor.

  6. #6
    Shadowlands is a huge narrative mistake.

    1) it comes out of the blue and is not tied to the wow lore
    2) it doesn't make any metaphysical sense for death to be a physical realm
    3) it makes death irrelevant , particularly the countless player deaths which suddenly also make no sense since we've been ressurecting on Azeroth and outland for 15th years instead of going straight to the shadowlands.
    4) players going in and out of the maw freely is simply a stupid concept

    The people responsible for the narrative at blizzard should be fired for this klusterf uck of a story.

  7. #7
    It doesn't make a ton of sense. They had to put the story together pretty quickly because they made brand new zones and characters lore wise that hadn't been referred to before. Honestly I don't think Blizzard has good story telling or character development in WoW's lifecycle. They did a pretty good job telling a fairly basic story with the Warcraft RTS series, Starcraft, and Diablo but for sequels like Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, and WoW they didn't do a very good job imo. When they want to develop characters or tell a character story they overreach a bit to make it "epic" so as a result you see some pretty inconsistent power levels with characters. I don't think it's a big deal to ask players to suspend their disbelief or conveniently ignore logical flaws such as dying and then corpse running but then showing that there is a realm of the dead people who die are sent to because it's essentially just a game mechanic they thought of to punish dying. It's also something only player characters can do, we kind of accept that players can corpse run but mobs we kill or dungeon/raid bosses we kill can't corpse run for the convenience of video game mechanics.

  8. #8
    We still don't know where covenant people who die in Shadowlands go. Apart from Maldraxxus, as far as I got it, they just reforge the body and infuse it with the fallen spirit. Other covenants I don't know. And it seems strange that souls can die in SL at all indeed.

  9. #9
    The whole premise is pretty much idiotic and there'll never be satisfactory explanation to anything
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

    "People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an excercise of power, are barbarians" - George Lucas 1988

  10. #10
    Yes. At this point even the story is falling apart. My favorite part is being able to portal to the 'afterlife' in major cities and then portal back out.
    nice play Blizz, absolute trash.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Don't try to make any sense of it, because it doesn't.

    When Ursoc died in Ardenweald, he is dead forever. But when we die in Ardenweald, it doesn't matter.

    When Arthas was casted into Maw, he couldn't escape. But players can travel in and out of Maw like nothing.

    Nothing is logic here, everything is just plot armor.
    While I generally agree, for these in particular there is an answer. The player is alive in the Shadowlands.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    Shadowlands is a huge narrative mistake.

    1) it comes out of the blue and is not tied to the wow lore
    2) it doesn't make any metaphysical sense for death to be a physical realm
    3) it makes death irrelevant , particularly the countless player deaths which suddenly also make no sense since we've been ressurecting on Azeroth and outland for 15th years instead of going straight to the shadowlands.
    4) players going in and out of the maw freely is simply a stupid concept

    The people responsible for the narrative at blizzard should be fired for this klusterf uck of a story.
    a) It doesn't come out of the blue, actually - it's been mentioned in the game and lore plenty of times before.
    b) It's a fantasy game, it doesn't have to make "sense" or apply to any "logic". It's fantasy, it's made up.
    c) It makes death completely relevant. Player deaths have been explained many, many times.
    d) The players ability to go in and out of the Maw has yet to be explained, but not being a soul and being a mortal probably has something to do with it - hence why souls and the jailers trapped their can't just "leave" because, uh, they're not mortal.

    Just because you can't understand or do your own reading around it, doesn't mean it's a "clusterfuck".

  13. #13
    I don't think people look at at in the right way.

    Beings go into their respective zones if they die. If they are killed there they are gone. Energy repurposed by the universe idk.
    We probably originate in the lifelands and go to the shadowlands upon death.
    Void to void light to light etcpp

    What happens with us in the SL depens on what we believe in. There are basically infinet realms. But we obviously can't visit all of them just the big four and a few smaller ones.
    If i understand it correctly dying in the SL is quite rare. It only happens because of the jailor shenanigans in the first place. What happens with beings who originate in the SL idk. Maybe it got mentioned. maybe it did not.

    BUT: We do not have to no everything. I think it is always a disservice to any game lore to try to explain every detail. So imple answer. We don't know yet and maybe never will and that is ok. So those reeeeeee retcon people loose their hook to get worked up about every small change.

    Lore is fine. Read the wow wiki articel it is making sense in most parts and tells you what we don't know yet.

  14. #14
    Spoiler Alert: There is no logic. There is no reason for any of it aside from a group of devs and writers sat down and said "wouldn't it be cool if...?" Thus Shadowlands was born. The game's lore is a complete joke and not worth putting any thought into; similar to the writers who created this mess.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Corydon View Post
    ...until they die in the Shadowlands. What then?...
    My understanding is if one of the denizens of the Shadowlands "dies" they are converted into Anima... that same anima you have been collecting and spending all this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    1) it comes out of the blue and is not tied to the wow lore
    And?

    There has to be more to this argument. "It's new!" doesn't hold water as a reason that something is bad. If that's your argument, then every new zone that they've ever introduced that's not explicitly a "Hey, remember this?" callback to the original Warcraft games was "a huge narrative mistake".

    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    2) it doesn't make any metaphysical sense for death to be a physical realm
    What does this even mean? Why are you trying to make "metaphysical sense" out of a fantasy world, and what exactly gives you sway to define what does and doesn't make "metaphysical sense" here? I don't understand this.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    3) it makes death irrelevant , particularly the countless player deaths which suddenly also make no sense since we've been ressurecting on Azeroth and outland for 15th years instead of going straight to the shadowlands.
    It doesn't make death irrelevant. Death was always irrelevant to the player character, for very obvious gameplay/lore segregation reasons. Your experience as a player is not necessarily their experience as a character. As far as the ongoing story of WoW goes, the player character doesn't die (with some exceptions), in the same way that in the ongoing story in other games, the narrative doesn't meaningfully address the fact that you can save your progress at conveniently-placed floating crystals or put the main story on pause to go pick up groceries for an old granny in Ding Dong Dell when you really should be going to Deathmurder Phantasmagoria to save the world from imminent destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    4) players going in and out of the maw freely is simply a stupid concept
    Is it? It's established immediately that (surprise surprise) the player character is different and unique in ways that other major characters aren't that gives them the qualities to be a Maw Walker. We're just not sure what it is at this point in the story, and like many of the other weird mysteries about this story, they're probably setting up to be revealed later on.

    Shadowlands is nowhere close to the pinnacle of excellent video game writing, but it's not that bad.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    The whole premise is pretty much idiotic and there'll never be satisfactory explanation to anything
    Yes. This is pretty much it.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ashblond View Post
    Don't try to make any sense of it, because it doesn't.

    When Ursoc died in Ardenweald, he is dead forever. But when we die in Ardenweald, it doesn't matter.

    When Arthas was casted into Maw, he couldn't escape. But players can travel in and out of Maw like nothing.

    Nothing is logic here, everything is just plot armor.
    They're pretty clearly signaling the player is a special case here. When you die you end up near those weird first one relics that pop you out. You can leave the Maw only through their device but nobody else can unless they're with you.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    d) The players ability to go in and out of the Maw has yet to be explained, but not being a soul and being a mortal probably has something to do with it - hence why souls and the jailers trapped their can't just "leave" because, uh, they're not mortal.
    Jaina and Co are also mortals, but they are unable to go in and out of the Maw at will.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Corydon View Post
    Hey folks!

    I find some Shadowlands "mechanics" kinda disturbing or not explained well enough. So when a person on (e.g.) Azeroth dies, their soul (and apparently their body appearance) will go to the Shadowlands into one of the four destinations and be there forever as a reward/punishment for their actions they did when they were alive...

    ...until they die in the Shadowlands. What then?

    I know we are the champion of Azeroth and different rules apply to us. We basically cannot die at all. Although we have to act as if we could.

    But all the other characters (NPC) are basically dead when they die. All those Maldraxxus or Kyrian or whatever fighters that are dying all the time? They're dead for good. I understand beings have to die in the Shadowlands or else it would fill up rather quickly...

    But overall it sounds to me like every person has basically two lives. First one on Azeroth (or Draenor or Argus or any other "SL-connected realm") and the second one in the Shadowlands. And when they die there it's all over. Or... isn't? (Read those last two words in Vsauce Michael Stevens style.)

    Sounds a little weird to me but maybe I'm not fully getting it.


    On a side note: I think Sylvanas wants to fiddle with this and change mechanics. Not sure in which way but she has an agenda of course.
    Way i understand it it is like an elemental dying on their plane:
    Yeah they're dead dead, split into their most basic parts, BUT if you put said parts back together carefully they can make a functioning whole again, maybe.
    Like with Ragnaros slowly being resurrected in the firelands.

    Dying in a plane of origins just turns off auto-rez so to speak, but much like an extremely comlex machine it could be rebuilt by someone with the knowledge, patience, means and motivation to do so.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Respect all, submit to none.

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