Poison Vial

[ro9ue]

I really like this ability thematically and visually. But the RNG of it is just terrible. It sucks so fucking bad to watch ANY other class pop an AoE on demand on a pack, only for you to have to pray for a proc... which usually only comes when there are 2 mobs left from a pack of 10.

Crimson Tempest is an option, but again you have to get the CP, then it's an AoE slow ticking DoT.

Meanwhile the mobs have been melted by:
- Bladestorm
- Eye Beam
- Whatever the fuck mages are doing
- etc

It's not a problem just with Assassination AoE, Affliction does have a similar problem. But doesn't it just seem like an obvious fix is to make Poison Vial on demand and tune the numbers so it's not way out of line?

[intenz]

They could make it proc on every envenom and assassination would still be behind. They could bake SnD into envenom too, geez that spec needs a workover.

[Dunderstudy]

3 things that I thought they could do.
1. make vendetta a selfbuff increased dmg to what ever you are targeting and a small increase to everything else. they could literally keep tweaking ST dmg and dmg from other targets getting hit by aoe(including lowering the time of the buff).

2. Make toxic blade a buff on your self after using it instead of a debuff on target so that poisons/PB do more damage for aoe.

3.Make poison bomb have a stacking chance to proc per finisher (iffy on whether it should do more per stack or what). Also someone mentioned something about a similar effect like the hunter legendary for their trap. Where the damage keeps ticking after mobs or boss moves out of it, Since things like sanguine literally invalidate the move.

[Coldkil]

Imho it's should just be an on demand burst mainly for aoe but that can be used in. 25/30 seconds CD, applies a 10/12 sec dot that also increases damage taken by bleeds and poisons by X%. This way you can multdot, throw the vial and have your aoe rotation. Crimson Tempest should also just be baseline like Black Powder is for Sub.

Having it a proc AND a ground aoe makes it basically not very effective.

[ro9ue]

Imho it's should just be an on demand burst mainly for aoe but that can be used in. 25/30 seconds CD, applies a 10/12 sec dot that also increases damage taken by bleeds and poisons by X%. This way you can multdot, throw the vial and have your aoe rotation. Crimson Tempest should also just be baseline like Black Powder is for Sub.

Having it a proc AND a ground aoe makes it basically not very effective.

Yeah I'm not really sure why there's a massive inconsistency for Assassin here. I've seen the dev post about "not all specs should be good at AOE" but I don't think anyone can show me a spec that is as lacking in some sort of AoE kit to work with.

[Coldkil]

Yeah I'm not really sure why there's a massive inconsistency for Assassin here. I've seen the dev post about "not all specs should be good at AOE" but I don't think anyone can show me a spec that is as lacking in some sort of AoE kit to work with.

It's basically because we're the only melee pure dps. Multi-role specs have to "aggregate" the whole toolkit all in one place. Makes sense, but what we end with is that hybrid classes actually have a more complete and consistent toolkit to deal with multiple situations.

The idea to have niches for specs makes sense in a world where you can make use of it most of the time - i'm the one doing priority damage, you are the aoe guy, etc - but it's just not like this.

Specifically for rogue specs, we're ending in the same old scenario which is now more than 15 years old: you should go Combat/Outlaw because Blade Flurry is so fucking strong. We got a small timeframe where Assa was the sustained damage king but mostly because it's a braindead spec and less punishing to player errors. Sub had lots of potential in Shadowlands but guess what, Blade Flurry. Because "outlaw should be the aoe spec", but too bad it has also the single target otherwise it would be useless outside of M+.

It's a serious problem. Blizzard continues to promote the "you can play all specs" when it's not actually that - everyone plays the most performing one, END OF STORY. Stop the useless bullcrap, actually give all rogue specs the toolkit they need, and then we'll see what people will play. There will always be differences due to how a particular fight is and how a spec deals damage, but hell right now we have a spec that's literally ignored by the playerbase because its own tooltkit pales in comparison to the other two.

Then it's the usual round of buffs/nerfs and everyone jumps on the next strongest one. We're a PURE MELEE DPS CLASS. We should always do damage, only in different ways. Something that right now doesn't happen.

[Mazza]

It's basically because we're the only melee pure dps.

That right there. I know that at some point there was a lot of talk about making one of the specs (back then prob combat, the current outlaw) a tanking spec as that would kill two birds with one stone. A definite shortage of tanks and the problem that if you have 3 specs that basically always will be doing the same thing, one of them is always going to be the best one.

As I recall, Blizzard opted against it because they did not wanted to take away any rogues favorite dps spec. And yeh, it would suck if you are really invested in a spec for it's dps role to get to hear it is not a dps role anymore but a tanking one.

Then like a year after they said that they changed Survival into a melee spec (lol)

[Coldkil]

That right there. I know that at some point there was a lot of talk about making one of the specs (back then prob combat, the current outlaw) a tanking spec as that would kill two birds with one stone. A definite shortage of tanks and the problem that if you have 3 specs that basically always will be doing the same thing, one of them is always going to be the best one.

As I recall, Blizzard opted against it because they did not wanted to take away any rogues favorite dps spec. And yeh, it would suck if you are really invested in a spec for it's dps role to get to hear it is not a dps role anymore but a tanking one.

Then like a year after they said that they changed Survival into a melee spec (lol)

I remember that time. Combat/Outlaw as a tank spec would have made sense, but now that fantasy/role is covered mostly monk and DH. Still Outlaw as a tank would be useful given the tank shortage and i for once would definitely play it in M+ and use Sub or Assa in raid/as dps. But that's just daydreaming.

Rogues are a peculiar class. Their fantasy is strong, their playerbase is very tied to the class, we have decent if not good representation in all content types (number wise) and the performance while not stellar as it was years ago it's always been good enough to not warrant the class being dead/benched/useless.

However they are pidgeonholed to the pure melee dps role. We were historically the ones that leeched all the buffs provided by others and deal the most damage. It's fine to have all other dps to do equal damage, but we lost our peculiarity on the road. All three specs play differently enough, have a good fantasy/concept, yet they fail to convey and deliver as every rogue just caters to a single one because damage it's the only thing we do and we want to do it in the most efficient way possible. If switching specs/gear was much easier, people would consistently farm and change spec per fight, something Blizzard clearly doesn't want. But players would do it nontheless.

So, to me there's only a couple ways this can go to "solve" the issue once and for all.

- all specs get all the tools. This way, no spec is left behind in content due to not having the stuff needed to burst/cleave/aoe/etc. Obviously the will need to behave differently, i don't want broad "blade flurry for everyone". Won't solve the issue of having a "best spec" that most people will flock on but given decent balance all specs should be playable and perfoming well enough. However it may end with a situation where all three specs feel to similar.

- specs get overhauled or straight out removed. I'm not against this, but the problem is very clear, you cannot take away a spec people like just because. However you can easily see how specs are used when 90% of players raid/pvp/go m+ with the same ones. If Assa was removed tomorrow, we would have barely an impact on the current situation. DH as a newer/more modern design class, works perfectly as a tank/dps dual spec class. And i don't see a problem in doing so with rogues - though it's my opinion and not everyone's.

Point is, rogues are just outdated and no fresh paint can change that. To make things better, stuff must change and we may need to just lose something. Not saying that that's what the game needs, but it's certainly something i would be curious to see.

BTW, i think warlocks and mages should receive a similar treatment. A warlock tank spec that everyone is asking from forever ago, and a melee mage (cause healer honestly doesn't make much sense). Healers wise, the only class that has a double role is priest, but disci and holy are so much different they can cohexist easily.

[Naiattavain]

I remember that time. Combat/Outlaw as a tank spec would have made sense, but now that fantasy/role is covered mostly monk and DH. Still Outlaw as a tank would be useful given the tank shortage and i for once would definitely play it in M+ and use Sub or Assa in raid/as dps. But that's just daydreaming.

Rogues are a peculiar class. Their fantasy is strong, their playerbase is very tied to the class, we have decent if not good representation in all content types (number wise) and the performance while not stellar as it was years ago it's always been good enough to not warrant the class being dead/benched/useless.

However they are pidgeonholed to the pure melee dps role. We were historically the ones that leeched all the buffs provided by others and deal the most damage. It's fine to have all other dps to do equal damage, but we lost our peculiarity on the road. All three specs play differently enough, have a good fantasy/concept, yet they fail to convey and deliver as every rogue just caters to a single one because damage it's the only thing we do and we want to do it in the most efficient way possible. If switching specs/gear was much easier, people would consistently farm and change spec per fight, something Blizzard clearly doesn't want. But players would do it nontheless.

So, to me there's only a couple ways this can go to "solve" the issue once and for all.

- all specs get all the tools. This way, no spec is left behind in content due to not having the stuff needed to burst/cleave/aoe/etc. Obviously the will need to behave differently, i don't want broad "blade flurry for everyone". Won't solve the issue of having a "best spec" that most people will flock on but given decent balance all specs should be playable and perfoming well enough. However it may end with a situation where all three specs feel to similar.

- specs get overhauled or straight out removed. I'm not against this, but the problem is very clear, you cannot take away a spec people like just because. However you can easily see how specs are used when 90% of players raid/pvp/go m+ with the same ones. If Assa was removed tomorrow, we would have barely an impact on the current situation. DH as a newer/more modern design class, works perfectly as a tank/dps dual spec class. And i don't see a problem in doing so with rogues - though it's my opinion and not everyone's.

Point is, rogues are just outdated and no fresh paint can change that. To make things better, stuff must change and we may need to just lose something. Not saying that that's what the game needs, but it's certainly something i would be curious to see.

BTW, i think warlocks and mages should receive a similar treatment. A warlock tank spec that everyone is asking from forever ago, and a melee mage (cause healer honestly doesn't make much sense). Healers wise, the only class that has a double role is priest, but disci and holy are so much different they can cohexist easily.

reading this post i don't even want to continue playing sub at all. might as well just quit.

[ro9ue]

That right there. I know that at some point there was a lot of talk about making one of the specs (back then prob combat, the current outlaw) a tanking spec as that would kill two birds with one stone. A definite shortage of tanks and the problem that if you have 3 specs that basically always will be doing the same thing, one of them is always going to be the best one.

As I recall, Blizzard opted against it because they did not wanted to take away any rogues favorite dps spec. And yeh, it would suck if you are really invested in a spec for it's dps role to get to hear it is not a dps role anymore but a tanking one.

Then like a year after they said that they changed Survival into a melee spec (lol)

It's definitely a tough call, but they bit the bullet with DK and it was better for it. If anyone didn't play early DK... basically every spec could tank or dps. Eventually they realized this was untenable and forced Blood into the tank spec. It could've just as easily been Frost with the heavy frozen armor theme or the Unholy bone shield theme, they picked one and moved all the tanking tools to Blood.

Only being able to do one role is such a massive drawback. 0 opportunity for a quicker queue, less flexibility with your group of friends doing M+ or raiding, and basically 3 dps specs are just boring.

If you look at the specs we have now, I think Outlaw would match a tanking theme the most, given it always felt like you were more out in the open with toe to toe combat, vs a hidden assassin, or popping out of stealth with sub. They could go heavy pirate duelist theme. Parrying attacks, dodging etc. I always thought it would be cool to have a button that if you timed it correctly and dodged X damage or absorbed a spell it would lower or reset CD on cloak / evasion.

IDK but if they go this route, they're definitely going to have to fix Assassin's lack of AoE and make Sub a little more polished.

[Celfydd]

That right there. I know that at some point there was a lot of talk about making one of the specs (back then prob combat, the current outlaw) a tanking spec as that would kill two birds with one stone. A definite shortage of tanks and the problem that if you have 3 specs that basically always will be doing the same thing, one of them is always going to be the best one.

This was at the time that RIFT was starting to make serious inroads into their profits. In RIFT there was a dedicated tank solid spec for rogue and the way that talents worked there you could choose exactly how much you wanted of that versus doing damage in one way or another.

Then like a year after they said that they changed Survival into a melee spec (lol)

Yes, a little bit of me died right there.

[Saltysquidoon]

I hate poison vial's design. It's so passive you can't even manipulate the rng because it procs off of buttons you want to press, when you have it you might as well not even have talent (aside from the damage). Also, aoe talents that are obligate ST DPS increases are always balance nightmares.
It's WDP tier egregious too since it's muti's capstone talent.

It's definitely a tough call, but they bit the bullet with DK and it was better for it. If anyone didn't play early DK... basically every spec could tank or dps. Eventually they realized this was untenable and forced Blood into the tank spec. It could've just as easily been Frost with the heavy frozen armor theme or the Unholy bone shield theme, they picked one and moved all the tanking tools to Blood.

They picked blood because it had been the best tank spec in ToC and the only viable tank spec through all of ICC/RS which lasted over a year, the playerbase had been conditioned to accept DK tanks were blood because of that.
I always find it ironic because Frost tanking would have been a better fit for Cata's mitigation model and due to a lack of it in cata blood's toolkit of struggled with fights designed for mitigation tanks.

[Coldkil]

So, Assa got another 5% buff to everything. This explains a lot about balance, it's all about getting those warcraftlogs scores nice and tidy while spec mechanics are ignored.

They're gonna stack buff after buff until everyone plays assa because they buffed it too much. Also scaling is not considered so we'll see how next tiers will be.

[ro9ue]

So, Assa got another 5% buff to everything. This explains a lot about balance, it's all about getting those warcraftlogs scores nice and tidy while spec mechanics are ignored.

They're gonna stack buff after buff until everyone plays assa because they buffed it too much. Also scaling is not considered so we'll see how next tiers will be.

Yeah its all just weak. 5% won't do anything. Going by the history of how they do class design though, I'm basically expecting Assassin to be a dead spec until later gear levels where scaling might help it or a potential 10.0 redesign.

[Coldkil]

Yeah its all just weak. 5% won't do anything. Going by the history of how they do class design though, I'm basically expecting Assassin to be a dead spec until later gear levels where scaling might help it or a potential 10.0 redesign.

tbh, i cannot complain generally speaking. Both sub and outlaw are fun and effective, and while our covenants are basically all shit this also means they're pretty balanced exluding necrolord.

But in the end we're saying "it's shit but notvthat huge"

[ShadowofVashj]

That right there. I know that at some point there was a lot of talk about making one of the specs (back then prob combat, the current outlaw) a tanking spec as that would kill two birds with one stone. A definite shortage of tanks and the problem that if you have 3 specs that basically always will be doing the same thing, one of them is always going to be the best one.

As I recall, Blizzard opted against it because they did not wanted to take away any rogues favorite dps spec. And yeah, it would suck if you are really invested in a spec for it's dps role to get to hear it is not a dps role anymore but a tanking one.

Then like a year after they said that they changed Survival into a melee spec (lol)

I think to add to your points in another direction, being a pure dps class with three specs, one of those sort of "has" to be a throw away spec.

For multi role classes that only have one dps spec for instance, it sort of would be unfair to have them at the bottom of the charts because that's their only option. For specs like rogue Hunter mage etc, it just becomes a matter of rotating which specs have to bite the bullet for the others. As someone whose 2nd or 3rd fav alt is a rogue and who loves assassin spec, it'll be interesting to see what happens after the 5% buff tuning.

[shiloskander]

This way you can multdot, throw the vial and have your aoe rotation. Crimson Tempest should also just be baseline like Black Powder is for Sub.

[Aurrora]

The entire row needs to be reworked, you take Poison Bomb because it's the only talent that increases single target dps on boss fights. Crimson Tempest should be a baseline ability. Hidden Blades is a nerfed version of a Legion legendary that didn't see use out of memeing in open world pvp. If it has to be an aoe talent row I'd like to see Echoing Blades be made into a talent, at the very least the worthless FoK talent we have there now should be replaced with it.

[Narzok]

imagine instead of PB, we get a talent that applies subterfuge-empowered Garrote on X targets.
make the CD long enough so it is similar to stuff like Bladestorm.

you could still use it in ST to empower a Garrote every Y sec, while giving all benefits of the speccs toolkit (mainly Venomous Wounds) AND cutting down on a major problem: multi-dotting takes to long to start.