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  1. #81
    Weeb Queen Video Games's Avatar
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    Now that i have my rank 4, why even do it till next patch? Soul ash will likely be like residuum where they either wipe it every patch or make future upgrades cost so much theres no reason to farm it.

  2. #82
    Rewards wise I think the base soul ash stuff is good, but I do think the rewards should be more progressive as you make your way through a layer as opposed to being a single payout at the end. Getting through 5 floors only to reach an unkillable boss after spending a not insignificant amount of time in there is a horrendous feeling. I'd rather you get some small amount of soul ash for every floor boss you kill on the way to the final one, even if its lop sided and the final one carries most of the rewards.

    The reward structure in twisting corridors feels a mess to me. Why make 8 layers when only 4 have rewards? Why only 4 rewards some of which are super low effort like a title? I don't need power rewards coming from it but they could've put so much more in there.

    And that's ignoring that frankly it doesn't feel great as a roguelike / lite. I've sunk so many hours into risk of rain 2 for instance for no rewards or nothing of permanence. Just purely for the fun of it, but torghast really doesn't capture that feeling. It just misses the mark on what makes those games fun imo.
    ..and so he left, with terrible power in shaking hands.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    Your opinion not fact. People hate on something becuase they hate it. You liking it does not mean everyone does.

    Again, your opinion, not fact. There are people who don't agree with you. This is projecting ones opinion.

    ANd those that are complaining now are also in the right. You are not the sole aribiter of Torghast and how it should be. Again, there are people who find it fun knowing they won't fail because they can try speed runs and make different challenges for themselves.

    And there are people who think there are problems with it.

    I think people should be able to complain if they want. That is called feedback. I also think that other people should stop dictating to others how to play simply because they like things as is.
    Yes genius, almost everything is a subjective opinion. That has never been a valid argument against anything. Following that line of thinking all the forums on the internet should be deleted, because everyone is just gonna post their opinions there anyway, and they don't matter according to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Video Games View Post
    Now that i have my rank 4, why even do it till next patch? Soul ash will likely be like residuum where they either wipe it every patch or make future upgrades cost so much theres no reason to farm it.
    Offspec? Alts? Different leggos for different situations...such as single target, multi target, old content farming...etc? There's plenty of reasons to get more soul ash.

    If you're done with your leggo and you don't need the ash anymore for any other purpose, that's fine as well.

    As far as I know, leggos are gonna be a thing throughout SL, so you're gonna need it all the way.
    Last edited by Azerate; 2021-01-13 at 04:41 PM.

  4. #84
    I think it just needs more interesting core powers to base your build around for the run, and powers that interact with them for OP fun runs.

    Like how the Tar Trap/Flare ability is a bit boring and clunky, but if you could power it up (more damage, longer dots, bigger, dots exploding for extra damage on packs, empowers your pets) you could end the run with it being your top damage spell.

    A lot of the abilities just feel a bit shit, like who gets excited for 3% extra crit?

  5. #85
    In a way the OP is right; all these systems without meaningful rewards are completely optional, and that's great, taken in a vacuum.

    But riddle me this, wouldn't it be better to have content that's both fun and rewarding?

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    Yes genius, almost everything is a subjective opinion. That has never been a valid argument against anything. Following that line of thinking all the forums on the internet should be deleted, because everyone is just gonna post their opinions there anyway, and they don't matter according to it.



    Offspec? Alts? Different leggos for different situations...such as single target, multi target, old content farming...etc? There's plenty of reasons to get more soul ash.

    If you're done with your leggo and you don't need the ash anymore for any other purpose, that's fine as well.

    As far as I know, leggos are gonna be a thing throughout SL, so you're gonna need it all the way.
    Given the actual prices for base items for leggos in AH I doubt that 95% of players will go beyond only having one at level 2max without having to spend real money in tokens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    In a way the OP is right; all these systems without meaningful rewards are completely optional, and that's great, taken in a vacuum.

    But riddle me this, wouldn't it be better to have content that's both fun and rewarding?
    No.

    Because it’s soloable and has no timer, and the only way to give appeal to it would be giving gear. And not WQ level gear but at least ilvl 200 gear.

    That, for Blizzard, is totally out of question. But at least they could add a Vault additional item choice basing on the highest layer you did in Torghast, it would be better than nothing for sure.

  7. #87
    I'm up to level 3 on twisting corridors and I am still enjoying it. No reason to rush it all in one day, just going to do a level when I run out of other things to do.
    RETH

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    Yes genius, almost everything is a subjective opinion. That has never been a valid argument against anything. Following that line of thinking all the forums on the internet should be deleted, because everyone is just gonna post their opinions there anyway, and they don't matter according to it.
    I am not arguing anything. I am pointing out that you are projecting your opinion onto everyt one like it is fact by saying things like

    Everyone will find it refreshing and relaxing.
    Torghast is proof that people will nitpick and hate on anything they possibly can, just for the sake of it. Even if it's literally the best addition to the game for possibly a decade or more.
    Basically you are saying is that "I am right and anyone who disagrees with me is just a hater with no legitimate reason to hate it. There are legit reasons to hate it and nobody is hating it for the sake of hating it. There is a difference between citing an opinion and the two quotes you made I posted above.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    I Like how the Tar Trap/Flare ability is a bit boring and clunky, but if you could power it up (more damage, longer dots, bigger, dots exploding for extra damage on packs, empowers your pets) you could end the run with it being your top damage spell.
    That is actually an addition to the BM legendary which already does that. That ability is tailor made for Torghast as the boss doesn't move right away.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    Yup. I did layers 1 through 6 using a specific build. When I got to layer 7, I was short a few powers - I knew it, and I was desperately killing everything hoping to get more, but it didn't happen.

    My build depended on an immunity that you get from the moment you enter a floor, so I had one attempt on the final boss. My immunity ran out when he was under 15% health (I was hitting touch of death) and he meleed me for 500k. The end. 2.5 hours wasted. If I had gotten one more decent anima power (either dps or an extra stack of immunity - I was 2 short of what I normally get) - I would have killed him. If I had the combos I'd had on layer 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6, he'd be dead. But on layer 7, I got unlucky.

    That's not fun, it's just RNG.
    No, that is your problem for going all in on a build that requires specific powers instead of simply making yourself more powerful and killing the boss before he has so many stacks he hits for 500k.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Given the actual prices for base items for leggos in AH I doubt that 95% of players will go beyond only having one at level 2max without having to spend real money in tokens.
    The important part in a leggo is not the ilvl, but the power, and you get that with level 1 leggo already. And the cost of that is like 1k gold last time I checked.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post
    See, you're kind of completely missing my point. It's clearly an intentional choice to not add more rewards.

    Torghast is meant to be enjoyed. If you don't enjoy it, well... No point in forcing players to do it. Problem is we're all too trained from years of RNG and gatcha incentivising un-fun content that we're like a labrat with their brain wired up to an orgasm button. We'll ignore a food dispenser that's right in front of us.
    That's the problem with tying anything that's just 'meant to be enjoyed' into a Pay-Per-Month MMO that has built its entire game up around Reward-centric mechanics and design. There's always something to grind for, always something to progress or aspire to. This isn't World PVP where people are just left to do whatever they choose in a sandbox, Torghast is an intentionally designed feature.


    If something is just 'meant to be enjoyed' then it could be thrown into Darkmoon Island and left to be. Torghast however is designed as late/end game content, and it has no real excuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  12. #92
    How to fix some of the major issues with Torghast.

    1: Rework bosses to be more in line with Rogue-like game bosses. Less raw survivability and pseudo enrage, more dodging, positioning and opportunistic gameplay.

    2: More (Interesting) powers. Anima powers lack synergy, I've tried a couple of classes / specs / covenants, and there's very little synnergy between abilities. It feels as if Blizzard looked at class abilities, chose one or two abilities, made powers for them and then called it a day. I want the possibility (Not expectation) to completely break the game. In binding of Isaac, I can go from a one HP pleb with next to no damage, to a literal god if I get the right stuff. Hades, though a little less extreme, also allows for you to feel like the god your character is meant to be.

    3: Add cosmetics.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    Having no reward means anything optional becomes dead.
    WoW (or any MMORPG) in a nutshell.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Klingers View Post

    I'm saying this and to be honest, Torghast isn't really my cup of tea. I'm not big on roguelikes. I'm not a huge Diablo fan. But, I can see how for a certain crowd of people Torghast is right up their alley. It has a lot of replayability. My or your "Boring" might be someone else's very entertaining Sunday afternoon.
    But it doesn't have a lot of replayability.

    You may not realize this since you're not big on roguelikes but Torghast isn't a roguelike.

    Roguelikes imply that you gain something (even if it is just wisdom or meta-gaming awareness/knowledge) with each attempt.
    Torghast doesn't have that.

    Roguelikes have build variation that are meaningful, where you could change playstyle to accomodate power gains.
    Torghast doesn't have that.

    Roguelikes typically start you from nothing and you build up to something.
    Torghast doesn't have that, as class/spec/covenant is your starting point.


    So if we start from the premise that it isn't a roguelike and shouldn't be compared to one (most roguelikes are procedurally generated and don't use the templating like torghast does, for example), what's actually wrong with torghast?

    All builds funnel to the same build, this is the most clear in twisting since you get so much by the end you have near 100% of all abilities. This is the sign of a BAD roguelike. Just check steam reviews where one of the biggest -points complaints for roguelikes is that "every run feels the same."

    Likewise when your build fails because you get too many +phantasma, +abilitiesyoudontuse, +mawrat harness and not enough of what you want, you fail. That's ALSO not how all roguelikes work, where in some you could be naked and take no abilities and will enough skill beat everything.

    My group constantly wonders: how is this balanced within a floor to floor basis within a layer? It clearly is making assumptions about power gain, but if one floor has 0 elites and the only drops you get are for abilities you don't use/gain much from, the "power gain" on the next floor is meaningless. If the shop RNGs all garbage how do they balance the next floor? Answer: they don't. The difficulty increases somewhat linearly and definitely doesn't care if you have 0 abilities or your perfect drops.



    Now compare that to binding of isaac, hades or dead cells: every run can feel extremely different. You even get bursts of godly OPness if you get all the best things. And part of the "just one more run" is that it's actually not common to get the best things. But it feels great when you do!

    In every TC I've done, I've gotten to that godly OPness because of my combination. The only difference is when I got it. Every run then becomes "1 shot every mob" at that point. When I don't get that combo, the maps are a slog, I die, can't win, etc.

    You cannot possibly defend that this is people's "cup of tea" when it's already been substantially altered because it was very explicitly broken for some combos who couldn't mathematically win, and were just a burden on groups. Were they like "hey torghast is fun, umm, but, quick question, are you going to make it so I can ever win?"



    Also, you champion that this is a "good thing for wow" to have zero progression in torghast and "not require it" but again, they waste resources building this out, and if there's no progression (and it's mediocre) why play it? Who objectively enjoys torghast versus, say, alt tabbing and playing a real roguelike? If there's nothing to gain out of torghast are you really saying it's more fun than other options?



    Across the board the anecdote i hear from everyone I play wow with is: wow is really fun right now, but there's nothing to do to have the fun. I personally should love torghast but it just isn't compelling. I know they'll change it / tweak it and inevitably add some point to do it, but adding these themed events just for curiosity isn't enough. And again looking at the arc that islands/warfronts/memories took I'm not exactly holding out hope that it's going to be much more than what it is, aside from maybe new themes or something.


    I bristle at any argument that "someone enjoys it therefore it's successful." Someone also enjoys huffing glue or banging their hand with a hammer. Horses for courses.
    Last edited by frott; 2021-01-13 at 07:05 PM.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    The important part in a leggo is not the ilvl, but the power, and you get that with level 1 leggo already. And the cost of that is like 1k gold last time I checked.
    Don't be fooled, Going from 190 to 235 is a huge Dps increase just in stats a lone and thats on an item with the same stats.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    I'd just like to be able to do it solo, I was hoping for something to be doing when raids and M+ runs were not around.

    If they balanced it a bit better between classes - that's all I'd be asking for.
    Every class can do it solo.

  17. #97
    If it was intended to be a chore more boring than washing dishes then yeah its working as intended

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    No, that is your problem for going all in on a build that requires specific powers instead of simply making yourself more powerful and killing the boss before he has so many stacks he hits for 500k.
    Honestly wasn’t really any other viable build. I was trying to get more dps but I got bad traits. Build I got has worked on 6 out of 7 floors and would have worked on the 7th if I had gotten more of the powers I targeted.

    Of course, you have no idea what I’m talking about since you didn’t see the run... what evidence do you have for blindly assuming that there’s some other way of building that is 100% effective?

    And the issue here is there was no “play better and win” scenario. I didn’t get enough good powers and I knew it going to the last boss. I got a lot of “tiger palm does blah...” and, newsflash, brewmaster should never cast tiger palm in torghast - the energy is 15x more valuable spent on vivify.

    So the whole thing reduces to:

    1. Play for 2.5 hours.
    2. If you get a good build, ezwin. I was doing 600k dps on level 4.
    3. If you get a bad build, lose hopelessly. I was doing 55k dps on level 7 with the same priority list as I used on level 4.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-01-13 at 08:20 PM.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    How to fix some of the major issues with Torghast.

    1: Rework bosses to be more in line with Rogue-like game bosses. Less raw survivability and pseudo enrage, more dodging, positioning and opportunistic gameplay.

    2: More (Interesting) powers. Anima powers lack synergy, I've tried a couple of classes / specs / covenants, and there's very little synnergy between abilities. It feels as if Blizzard looked at class abilities, chose one or two abilities, made powers for them and then called it a day. I want the possibility (Not expectation) to completely break the game. In binding of Isaac, I can go from a one HP pleb with next to no damage, to a literal god if I get the right stuff. Hades, though a little less extreme, also allows for you to feel like the god your character is meant to be.

    3: Add cosmetics.
    I'd agree with this approach.


    As much as I like the roguelike aspect of the idea, I think that the design should be more focused on a particular set of standards. RNG is fine and all, but the challenge should be based more on skill and mechanics than pure stats and roles.

    The power ups should justify a higher level of skill-based play, and the higher levels challenge the application of those skills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  20. #100
    I think that Torghast should get more rewards; BUT Rewards that make Torghast easier. Ilvl should be on par with World quests (ilvl get increased with higher renown), but gets a huge boost in Torghast.

    And Torghast-Gear should be the best Gear for Torghast. So it gets an ilvl boost inside Torghast (and maybe the Maw), and have some pretty strong Set-Bonuses that as said works only for Torghast. For example a Set Bonus that let you keep all Bonuses of the first anima bonus in Torghast every Floor, or gives you automatically one strong bonus when you enter Torghast.

    Just make the gear have an unique color so that you can easier distingue them with your normal gear: Maw-Grey for the Itemname for example.

    EDIT: and as said above: why not give Torghast one item every week without Torghast-Restrictions inside the vault for example: this would reward them too.

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