Do most Alliance and Horde players like or dislike Anduin Wrynn and Jaina Proudmoore?

[Eninya]

I like Jaina, but her and Sylvanas have become eerily similar over time.

My primary distaste for Sylvanas is the utter disregard for the nuance of her story, and they keep incorporating her into a wild new plot line each expansion that has no proper explanation or context. We've been dealing with her crap writing forever, and she was basically MIA for all of Legion doing next to nothing after a bunch of disjointed setup.

Comparatively, they actually wrote in most of Jaina's anger and explained each cycle of hatred she went through. Sylvanas? Nah, they just change her motives and reasoning, and try to sweep it under the rug of "she was really doing it for this reason all along!" Both characters have a similar writing style, but the execution for Jaina is just... better. Specifically to BfA's storyline, it's all butts, but I feel like Jaina came out better.

I like that Anduin's compassion gets a lot of doubt, though his interactions with Sylvanas are pretty questionable. (The latest custcene was like: I understand you better than anyone. All of a sudden. Without knowing your motivations. /s)

[nonameelf]

Well its not like that in the mind of writers but it really comes out this way. Alliance seems to give a rats ass only about humans and sometimes dwarves who in turn pass out the “bread” to gnomes. Night elves and draenei might as well be excluded from Alliance and never reap any benefits of membership. If anything night elves suffered because of Alliance and then were betrayed and left to dry on the beach as humans flaunted their righteousness and pranced away after forgiving the horde again... For a “peacemaker” Anduin sure is good at betraying his allies. Also he did NOTHING to ensure that peace lasts longer then a year or two.

I'm still confused why the other alliance leaders even let Anduin lead. Blizzard gave no explanation for it and Anduin has been a spectacularly awful leader. Who the fuck goes to siege Undercity without a plan for the Blight? Fucking really?

[shoc]

I would like Anduin more if he became the Lich King and the faction leader of the Forsaken.

[Syegfryed]

I won't bother with the power level discussion or Jaina's schizophrenia, this is well trodden ground and people here have it well in hand, what I'm more interested from @Raisei and others who push for Jaina is where they see her going from here? What plotline is left for her to explore? She is at the peak of her abilities, she has redeemed herself in the eyes of her kingdom, put herself in charge of it, reconciled with her family and Thrall and put her grievances beside her. Nevermind the competence of these stories, more - what is there to do with her? What does she contribute by participating in this narrative that couldn't be achieved by a particularly fast taxi or giving Thrall a gun so he can actually carry his weight in a fight? Where do you go with her from here?

obviously, doing all of this again, cause they were not satisfied enough, maybe they don't feel they told to us how awesome she is

[Super Dickmann]

Finding her brain maybe? Then killing heaps of horde for several expansions, experimenting on orcs, doing awful things to them and being overly antagonistic about it (like taking it FAR beyond “just business”) and then becoming a Goddess of Something?

See who i am using as an example?

My law delivers yet again. It's also a naked dodge of the question.

To get it out of the way, you can make a strong argument that Sylvanas should've died at the end of Wrath as that wrapped up her story and while I'd argue that her being able to kill herself and then seeing that's not what she expected was a good route to take to not space one of their premier characters, you and others might disagree. What isn't really arguable is the following: You know how much Sylvanas features in two expansions that had nothing for her to do - Mists and Warlords? Cameo in one patch in one, not at all in the latter. You know how much she appeared in Legion besides at the very start to enable her Warchief stint and in a story about Genn and the val'kyr/immortality, things intimately connected to both her and the worgen? Again, not at all. This is not the case for Jaina in Shadows Rising and now Shadowlands, hence my question.

As I said in my initial post, I'm not talking about her power level, the Horde player's interaction with her or the general quality of Jaina's story precisely to avoid getting locked in some kind of side discussion, though lord knows there's a lot to say there. Rather it's about the fact that she has resolved every outstanding issue of her character, every relationship and every loose plot thread. Say what you will about Anduin or Sylvanas, but these characters are essential for this narrative to take place. It might be a shit narrative, and they might both be insufferable to broad swathes of the playerbase, but you couldn't really swap them out with anyone and have the same things happen or hit the same thematic beats. Jaina on the other has already concluded her story, so much so that her being tortured in a hell dimension is something we just got done doing in BFA. Except back there it had a point.

[Huntermyth]

i like anduin and dislike jaina and my faction preference shouldn't be hard to guess.

let's see... anduin has some serious daddy issues. varian being a badass gladiator and all, he almost naturally chooses a much much more calm path of light and he seems pretty good at it. he is trying to be a better person and accomplishing it left and right. there is nothing to hate about him. he may have done a few mistakes here and there but none of them were deliberate and caused a major issue for the alliance ( or horde for that matter, seeing the latest events )

jaina is a different story. she has strong daddy issues too ( surprise surprise ) but in a different matter. she not only tries to surpass her father, she wants to BE her father. if you guys check the dialogues between her and her mother, you can easily see that. now there is nothing wrong in trying to follow in your dad's footprints but developing a character solely on someone else is a sign of weak will in my book.

[Akka]

I'm OK with Anduin, and used to feel sorry for Jaina. That was, until she went batshit crazy and turned the Kiryn Tor into an alliance front when they were supposed to be neutral.

You realize the Kirin Tor was a FOUNDING MEMBER of the Alliance, and that it was their neutrality which was completely idiotic to begin with ?

[Eggroll]

The Alliance mostly exists to serve humanity's interests. Notice how the Alliance didn't come to the draenei's aid during Legion when the Exodar was attacked or during the invasion of Argus?

Why anyone not human would stay in the Alliance is beyond me.

Ok, everyone were busy fighting the Legion on Azeroth, it's also kind of hard to "follow" the Draenei into space when you don't have a spaceship. I must admit I don't know the backstory behind it. But the absence of Alliance leaders was astonishing, I agree.

[Ardenaso]

Anduin out of moral vanity, Jaina I'm not clear why she did it, she certainly never worried not to disobey the king.

After all, she should have been the one to sympathize with Tyrande most, losing her home to a Horde assault. Why she wouldn't back her, it doesn't make sense to me.

she had that "gotcha" moment in Lordaeron throne room when Anduin mentioned Teldrassil burning, when she lashed out at the Kirin Tor "what if Teldrassil is bombed next?"

but nah she didn't have anything with it after

[Raisei]

I won't bother with the power level discussion or Jaina's schizophrenia, this is well trodden ground and people here have it well in hand, what I'm more interested from @Raisei and others who push for Jaina is where they see her going from here? What plotline is left for her to explore? She is at the peak of her abilities, she has redeemed herself in the eyes of her kingdom, put herself in charge of it, reconciled with her family and Thrall and put her grievances beside her. Nevermind the competence of these stories, more - what is there to do with her? What does she contribute by participating in this narrative that couldn't be achieved by a particularly fast taxi or giving Thrall a gun so he can actually carry his weight in a fight? Where do you go with her from here?

Telling a story about a very powerful individual is not that hard. I mean there are superman comics and movies and series for halve a century and he has almost no physical weakness, so you focus on psychological issues and weaknesses (the better stories do that at least). Jaina has resolved some of them, but there are more things that can come back to haunt her, like the Purge, Arthas and Kalec. Maybe even Kael, now that he is "back".

Mostly I see her in the role of adviser to Anduin though. Not really in the spotlight, but behind the throne to help out, like for example arranging a marriage and looking to get some bloody heirs for our throne (the fact that Anduin is in truely mortal danger should make clear we need heirs). Or she could be involved in further plots surrounding Kul'Tiras.

[Aresk]

Jaina is very much flip-flopping in quality. Loved her in WC3, was passive in Classic-TBC (didn't like how she went from neutral to Alliance though),

Jaina was never neutral. She was born Alliance. She was raised Alliance. She fought for the Alliance. She led the Alliance survivors in Kalimdor. She was as Alliance as Thrall was Horde throughout WC3. The Sentinels, the Alliance, and the Horde had an alliance between the three forces, but that didn't make any of them neutral (as, for instance, the goblins were at the time).

Just remember how Anduin managed to bridge the gap between the living and the undead in 15 minutes or so of friendly chat.

What chat are you referring to? There continues to be a rift, with Callia and Lilian seemingly trying to repair it after most of the Desolate Council died. The most Anduin did on that front was persuade Sylvanas to allow the gathering in Arathi, during which he never talked with any of the undead beyond Sylvanas herself. Anduin definitely dreams of a united Lordaeron, but as with most of his goals, almost all the work is performed by other characters (e.g. Elsie Benton is the one who talked with the Forsaken about healing the rift, with Faol and Callia offering mediation, and Parqual Fintallas spearheading the defection).

Nevermind the competence of these stories, more - what is there to do with her? What does she contribute by participating in this narrative that couldn't be achieved by a particularly fast taxi or giving Thrall a gun so he can actually carry his weight in a fight? Where do you go with her from here?

You make some good points. There're always the romantic relationship issues that remain unresolved. Someone mentioned Kael (I hope in jest), but I felt like things with Kalec weren't completely resolved. And there's obviously the promise to Thrall about not letting faction tensions grow too great, should the writers pursue that narrative path again. Beyond stories that hit those beats, I think she should be shelved for a while unless Sylvanas' big abduction plans reveal something new related to Jaina. And we still haven't had the big Jaina/dreadlord reveal in the lore yet; this is the perfect expansion for it!

[Super Dickmann]

Telling a story about a very powerful individual is not that hard. I mean there are superman comics and movies and series for halve a century and he has almost no physical weakness, so you focus on psychological issues and weaknesses (the better stories do that at least). Jaina has resolved some of them, but there are more things that can come back to haunt her, like the Purge, Arthas and Kalec. Maybe even Kael, now that he is "back".

Mostly I see her in the role of adviser to Anduin though. Not really in the spotlight, but behind the throne to help out, like for example arranging a marriage and looking to get some bloody heirs for our throne (the fact that Anduin is in truely mortal danger should make clear we need heirs). Or she could be involved in further plots surrounding Kul'Tiras.

As said, the power level thing while grating, is not the actual problem here. It's the repetitiveness and lack of emotional stake in this story. Tyrande is (meant to be) very powerful, but not only are we shown far fewer examples of her power than Jaina, her power is actually narratively relevant and ties into her state as the Night Warrior. Jaina's power on the other hand is a crutch. It's the focus of most conversations and screen time in Slands in a way it wasn't even in BFA where she had that huge power boost in the first place. But there's no emotional heft to it.

You do hit on what's likely the only reason she's actually there though - and that's to have her in the pocket for when Arthas shows up. That is pretty much the one thing left over and @Aresk touches on it too. In that sense, she does fill a point no one else. But prior to that point we're stuck in a re-run. There's nothing about her experience in the Maw that wasn't accomplished much better in Thros.

[Frozenbeef]

Dislike...

Jaina is so all over the place, ranging from wanting to decimate org, to back wanting peace, to abandoning the alliance because it didn't want to focus on the horde during the burning legion invasion, back to working with the horde directly...

Anduin is the complete opposite, alliance are dying and sacrificing their lives on his behalf and all he wants to do is be at peace with them after 5+ times the horde has gone back on their word? Like there's been two invasions of org and two invasions of undercity in his short lifetime... he should get the hint...

[Soon-TM]

@Aresk Calia/Lillian aren't "reparing" anything, since they have taken over the Forsaken without any opposition whatsoever. There is no schism, gap or divide of any sort among the Forsaken - hell, even Calia or Lillian themselves never even mention anything like it (post 8.2 at least).

[Driahtvacahtve]

I play horde.
Used to like Jaina, basically pre-theramore -> dalaran purge. Can't stand how she's just suddenly invincible and not a fan of where the character went in general, attitude and personality and such. Saving her in Torgast was very mweh. Happy to leave her there.
Used to like Anduin up until Pandaria basically. Liked his growth in Cata, and his interactions with Wrathion.
Can't stand how he too is just suddenly invincible and can do no wrong as well as where his character went in general, attitude and personality and such.
Not the tiniest little interest in saving him from Torgast either.
I find it hard to say who I dislike the most though. They're both awful at this point and I would be happy to wake up one day and they'd been killed off or something and replaced with more interesting characters.

[Ardenaso]

Anduin is the complete opposite, alliance are dying and sacrificing their lives on his behalf and all he wants to do is be at peace with them after 5+ times the horde has gone back on their word? Like there's been two invasions of org and two invasions of undercity in his short lifetime... he should get the hint...

The Alliance would be extinct and Anduin will still kneel down to the Horde and beg for forgiveness for angering them

[Aresk]

@Aresk Calia/Lillian aren't "reparing" anything, since they have taken over the Forsaken without any opposition whatsoever. There is no schism, gap or divide of any sort among the Forsaken - hell, even Calia or Lillian themselves never even mention anything like it (post 8.2 at least).

During the Shadowlands pre-patch event, it is specified Horde-side that Calia is helping the kal'dorei come to terms with their undead kin from the War of Thorns. I'm not sure if the leaders are still up on Grommash Hold, because I haven't been back to Org since the expansion launched, but the discussion was in one of the chat options up there.

[VladlTutushkin]

@Aresk Calia/Lillian aren't "reparing" anything, since they have taken over the Forsaken without any opposition whatsoever. There is no schism, gap or divide of any sort among the Forsaken - hell, even Calia or Lillian themselves never even mention anything like it (post 8.2 at least).

Well, frankly speaking why should there be any? Forsaken are all but a single step away from sharing the blame with Sylvanas so any of them who will go against Calia might as well admit that they are pro-sylvanas sycophant and get cuffed. So, they might be simply too uncertain to act now. After all, their position is VERY precarious.

[Soon-TM]

Well, frankly speaking why should there be any? Forsaken are all but a single step away from sharing the blame with Sylvanas so any of them who will go against Calia might as well admit that they are pro-sylvanas sycophant and get cuffed. So, they might be simply too uncertain to act now. After all, their position is VERY precarious.

Whatever the reason is, the point is that there isn't any actual opposition to either Calia's frontwoman Lillian or Calia herself.

[VladlTutushkin]

Whatever the reason is, the point is that there isn't any actual opposition to either Calia's frontwoman Lillian or Calia herself.

And there “should” be many other things too. Yet there arent. So...