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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Why do anything if people get bored of it? That's a flawed way of looking at things, buddy.
    Not really. Converting old raids into multiple 5-mans takes effort. If people are only going to consider them relevant for a few weeks is the cost worth it? It is something that must be considered when designing anything because resources are finite. The content would be new to everyone because you want them to resdesign all encounters. You can't just drop a raid encounter in a 5-man and do nothing else.

    You've also stated that it won't be a trip down memory lane because you didn't like the Deadmines remake because you ran deadmines a lot.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not really. Converting old raids into multiple 5-mans takes effort. If people are only going to consider them relevant for a few weeks is the cost worth it? It is something that must be considered when designing anything because resources are finite. The content would be new to everyone because you want them to resdesign all encounters. You can't just drop a raid encounter in a 5-man and do nothing else.

    You've also stated that it won't be a trip down memory lane because you didn't like the Deadmines remake because you ran deadmines a lot.
    It's extremely flawed. Are people considering the current dungeons 'relevant for only a few weeks'? No, right? So why would that happen to those. Your fears and assumptions don't make any sense. Of course you're not going to spend resources designing something that's only interesting for a few weeks; how stupid would that be?

    You can't compare Deadmines to Black Temple. Deadmines has always been relevant; it's a leveling dungeon which I've seen multiple times throughout the years while leveling all my characters. BT, SSC, TK, SWP, etc. is all superfluous content from more than 12 years ago.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    It's extremely flawed. Are people considering the current dungeons 'relevant for only a few weeks'? No, right? So why would that happen to those. Your fears and assumptions don't make any sense. Of course you're not going to spend resources designing something that's only interesting for a few weeks; how stupid would that be?
    You are the one that said your idea would solve the content drought that exists with 5-mans. If a content drought can exist now it will exist even with any 5-man. The relevance of 5-mans, encounters, art etc all only last a few weeks at most. After that it doesn't matter what they are because you are running it for the Xth time to push a key or whatever.

    Black Temple is already a time walking raid so it isn't content from 12 years ago. Deadmines as a leveling dungeon is old content for most players since you only level each character once. Of course we can compare it to Deadmines since the revamp made it an end game dungeon at the time. So content that you and everyone else saw a lot became relevant end game content. And you dismissed it.

    So why won't people dismiss the old raids in the same fashion?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #124
    Titan Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Are you blind? The quoted part are my answers to his questions.

    You people and your emotional, knee-jerk replies. Incredible


    Why do anything if people get bored of it? That's a flawed way of looking at things, buddy.

    The point is that people will get bored, which is why you should add new content regularly. This, is a time-consuming and expensive undertaking, which is what spawned the idea to begin with. There's a lot of content just sitting there, what if we used that to make content which would be new to a lot of people and a trip down memory lane for veterans. That's the gist of what I initially said, anyway. You can scroll back and read if you're interested in the details.
    Blind no... I'm not... You are asking Blizzard to spend development time on something, and if this is all you are going to give them as a reason they should do this then they are going to not bother with you and your ill-conceived idea. Feel free to continue to brow beat and insult folks that think this is is a foolish idea... It's absolutely certain to get folks to change their mind and agree with you.

    --- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You are the one that said your idea would solve the content drought that exists with 5-mans. If a content drought can exist now it will exist even with any 5-man. The relevance of 5-mans, encounters, art etc all only last a few weeks at most. After that it doesn't matter what they are because you are running it for the Xth time to push a key or whatever.

    Black Temple is already a time walking raid so it isn't content from 12 years ago. Deadmines as a leveling dungeon is old content for most players since you only level each character once. Of course we can compare it to Deadmines since the revamp made it an end game dungeon at the time. So content that you and everyone else saw a lot became relevant end game content. And you dismissed it.

    So why won't people dismiss the old raids in the same fashion?
    First of all, if you think dungeon relevance only lasts "a few weeks at most", you're not playing the same game I am. Mythic plus is far from done and we're more than month into SL. People we're still pushing keys at the end of BFA, so I honestly wonder where you pulled this idea from that dungeons stop being relevant after a few weeks.

    I never said it would solve anything. Besides, content drought is the lack of variety, not the disappearance of relevance. The idea I was playfully throwing around was based on the fact that Blizzard doesn't add new content frequently enough, probably because it's too expensive develop, considering how quickly players consume the content they provide. Ergo, I thought: well, if new content is too expensive maybe a pragmatic solution would be finding middle grounds and use existing assets. Which means they'd save development time, because they wouldn't need to design any assets.

    But I already explained this more than once, so you're either very, very dense or you just have trouble reading. Either way, we're not on the same page.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    Blind no... I'm not... You are asking Blizzard to spend development time on something, and if this is all you are going to give them as a reason they should do this then they are going to not bother with you and your ill-conceived idea. Feel free to continue to brow beat and insult folks that think this is is a foolish idea... It's absolutely certain to get folks to change their mind and agree with you.
    I didn't ask Blizzard anything. I had an idea, shared it and the seven pages of replies kinda proves it's an interesting subject.

    Insults?

    The thief doth fear each bush an officer
    Last edited by nocturnus; Yesterday at 11:05 PM.
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  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    What do you guys think?
    Probably been mentioned but I doubt people want to have to factor in EVERY POSSIBLE INSTANCE into their gearing path.
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  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    First of all, if you think dungeon relevance only lasts "a few weeks at most", you're not playing the same game I am. Mythic plus is far from done and we're more than month into SL. People we're still pushing keys at the end of BFA, so I honestly wonder where you pulled this idea from that dungeons stop being relevant after a few weeks.
    The only thing relevant about dungeons beyond a week or two is the loot/rewards. You have said it isn't about the loot so you are talking about the mechanics, art, etc. Which all become routine quickly and as people gear up become less relevant. The reason why Mythic+ had a challenge is the Timer and Affixes. People will push keys in any dungeon so you don't need old raids into dungeons for that to happen. Variety is of little importance when you are already running the content for the 30th time.

    Blizzard still has to design new assets when turning old raids into 5-mans. Even when reusing the same exact art/models with out changing one thing it will still take cause them to have to create new mechanics and encounters. Why are you turning this into insults? I disagree with what you've stated and that doesn't mean I can't read or I am stupid. If you can't keep your idea standing with out insults then is it really a good idea?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #128
    I rather they leave the raids alone.

    I do agree that there are a lot of wasted dungeons that should be included in the mythic+ pool, even if a few at a time. Mop and Wod had challenge modes, and Legion and BFA had mythic+, so there's around 50~ dungeons easily implemented into the current system (Vanilla-Cataclysm might not work as well without heavy changes). Again, even if only 2-5 each season.

    8 dungeons atm is a very low number, imo.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The only thing relevant about dungeons beyond a week or two is the loot/rewards. You have said it isn't about the loot so you are talking about the mechanics, art, etc. Which all become routine quickly and as people gear up become less relevant. The reason why Mythic+ had a challenge is the Timer and Affixes. People will push keys in any dungeon so you don't need old raids into dungeons for that to happen. Variety is of little importance when you are already running the content for the 30th time.
    Variety is of little importance to you. Okay, we've established that. I enjoy variety, especially after half a year of pushing the same eight dungeons. Therefore I would like to see more of them released over time. I think most people would side with me on this one; who wouldn't want more content variety?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Blizzard still has to design new assets when turning old raids into 5-mans. Even when reusing the same exact art/models with out changing one thing it will still take cause them to have to create new mechanics and encounters. Why are you turning this into insults? I disagree with what you've stated and that doesn't mean I can't read or I am stupid. If you can't keep your idea standing with out insults then is it really a good idea?
    I didn't insult you, I called you dense, headstrong, because you keep bumping your head against the same wall, but expect a different outcome every time.

    Yes, Blizzard will still have to do some work, we've already established that, so why would you keep regurgitating the same non sense? Fact of the matter is that they would have to do much less if they could use assets that are already in place. It's asinine to think that reworking an existing instance, would amount to an equal workload of designing a brand new one.

    Quote Originally Posted by hulkgor View Post
    I rather they leave the raids alone.

    I do agree that there are a lot of wasted dungeons that should be included in the mythic+ pool, even if a few at a time. Mop and Wod had challenge modes, and Legion and BFA had mythic+, so there's around 50~ dungeons easily implemented into the current system (Vanilla-Cataclysm might not work as well without heavy changes). Again, even if only 2-5 each season.

    8 dungeons atm is a very low number, imo.
    Aye. I used raids as an example because most raid areas are absolutely beautiful. But yes, they could definitely rotate some old content dungeons every season. Much like how Timewalking works, but a wee bit more elaborate and properly implemented in the M+ system.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Probably been mentioned but I doubt people want to have to factor in EVERY POSSIBLE INSTANCE into their gearing path.
    Then don't. It's that simple.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Variety is of little importance to you. Okay, we've established that. I enjoy variety, especially after half a year of doing the same eight dungeon, and would like to see more of them. I think most people would side with me on this one; who wouldn't want more variety?
    Which is why I said that it doesn't last beyond a few weeks. Because the novelty of variety ends once you do it a few times and then it just because the same as everything else. For the rewards. Also variety ends when you are talking about using the old raid assets with out changing them. Because that isn't creating new Variety which is why you said you hated Deadmines because you ran it in the past. Which is it. Old instances add variety or they don't? Can't have it both ways.

    Calling a person dense is an insult. At least have the backbone to stand by your words. You keep repeating the same arguments as well so does that mean you are dense? Banging your head on the wall? Can't read?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which is why I said that it doesn't last beyond a few weeks. Because the novelty of variety ends once you do it a few times and then it just because the same as everything else. For the rewards. Also variety ends when you are talking about using the old raid assets with out changing them. Because that isn't creating new Variety which is why you said you hated Deadmines because you ran it in the past. Which is it. Old instances add variety or they don't? Can't have it both ways.

    Calling a person dense is an insult. At least have the backbone to stand by your words. You keep repeating the same arguments as well so does that mean you are dense? Banging your head on the wall? Can't read?
    No, variety doesn't last a few weeks by definition. Stop trying to push your narrow minded opinion onto others.

    You keep mentioning Deadmines, but I'm afraid you completely misunderstood my point when I mentioned that instance. I invite you to go back and read my replies again; I've been nice enough to repeat and reformulate stuff for you, but I'm done with that.

    No, it's not an insult. "Idiot", that would be an insult. But saying you're a self-willed, headstrong individual is merely an observation based on the way you act: You regurgitate stuff, try to present your opinion as fact and are unwilling to properly read the replies of people that either disagree with you, or show you a different way.

    That's why I called you dense.

    The reason I quoted Shakespeare is homework; let's see if you can figure that out.

    Until then, it's best we agree to disagree, bump fists and move along.
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    No, variety doesn't last a few weeks by definition. Stop trying to push your narrow minded opinion onto others.
    It isn't narrow minded. Things don't change so the more times you run content the quicker its variety goes down. I am not misunderstanding what you said about Deadmines. I am just applying to to raids because you keep making this weird distinction between old raids and old dungeons when it comes to Variety. I am guessing because you didn't actually do the old raids when they were current content.

    It says everything about the variety of content when reusing the old art and models. Deadmines was new encounters, new story, and even new models. Yet it was bad because "it was the same as when you leveled through it". So making old content be relevant to end game can't just reuse assets by your own words.

    There is no difference between recycling old raids and recycling old 5-mans. Both are content that some players have down multiple times.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Some of you have very good arguments; yes, I agree that Timewalking sucks. But "my" idea (I'm quite sure lots of other people have had this super unique idea, hehe) revolves around recycling raids and turning those into dungeons and not re-using old dungeons at level-cap. I personally hated the Deadmines remake; it was too long and I had seen it too often during leveling.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't narrow minded. Things don't change so the more times you run content the quicker its variety goes down. I am not misunderstanding what you said about Deadmines. I am just applying to to raids because you keep making this weird distinction between old raids and old dungeons when it comes to Variety. I am guessing because you didn't actually do the old raids when they were current content.

    It says everything about the variety of content when reusing the old art and models. Deadmines was new encounters, new story, and even new models. Yet it was bad because "it was the same as when you leveled through it". So making old content be relevant to end game can't just reuse assets by your own words.

    There is no difference between recycling old raids and recycling old 5-mans. Both are content that some players have down multiple times.
    Deadmines is still relevant, because it's a dungeon you do while leveling up. Read, brother, read.

    Oof, assumption, mother of all fuck-ups. TBC was the only expansion where I had too much time to play and actually raided "hardcore" in a few pretty high-up guilds on Kazzak. No, I'm not proud of that, ew.

    There's a monumental difference, you just don't see it.

    Anyway, agree to whatever...
    "Just flow with the go..." - Rickson Gracie

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by nocturnus View Post
    Deadmines is still relevant, because it's a dungeon you do while leveling up. Read, brother, read.
    The level 85 version is not though. It being a leveling instance doesn't change that you are saying it being reused for end game didn't offer variety at end-game. There is not a monumental difference. Reusing old assets is the same regardless of it coming from a 5-man or a 10/25/40 man instance. The difference for you is that you ran deadmines a lot so it is no longer enough of a variation to mean anything.

    So why would old raids be enough of a variation to players that have done those old raids a lot? Variety has little to do with why people keep doing content. Little care what the instance and models look like after running the instance for the 100th time. Otherwise you would have been perfectly fine with the level 85 variation Deadmines provided right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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