How to make old content relevant

[Isaelyn]

"The Cataclysm sure was the best thing to happen to WoW," -not very many people, ever

To be fair, cataclysm was pretty well received initially up until the point blizzard started nerfing everything left and right and making strange decisions. The main reason that people had an issue with regarding the zone overhauls was the fact that all of the original versions of the content was gone forever, which is a problem we have a solution for these days that we didn't then. Plus expansion based zone updates would be handled through phasing and this not become active until they were relevant to the story, so you could level through a zone, come back at a higher level to see how time has passed and then talk to the bronze dragon lady if you wanted to go back in time and finished up things you had left undone which is very different from cataclysms "THIS UPDATE IS THE NEW EXPERENCE, FINISH THE OLD STUFF NOW OR NEVER SEE IT AGAIN."

[nocturnus]

Why do dungeon sets w/o bonuses need to 'return'?

Oh they don't need to return. I just thought it would be a fun thing to do. They could even implement fun, non-competitive set bonuses! That would definitely get my vote.

My opinion isn't that I don't like old content so I'd appreciate if you'd kindly stop telling me what I think simply because I disagree with you. For somebody obsessed with pedantry surely you've noticed by now that I haven't mentioned what I think about the content itself. If it was possible for something like what you're suggesting to exist without somehow taking resources and development time away from fixing the current game, I'd 100% be on board with it. But since that isn't possible this topic seems like a boring, slightly derivative rehash of an argument that has been flogged a million times already.

Weren't you the one saying you were done with old content and didn't want to play it again? I might have confused you with someone else.

If this topic is so boring, why are you still here? You seem to add nothing particularly constructive and only bitch about how bad this idea would be. We get it, the topic is boring and you don't want anything comparable to what I suggested in your precious game.

I suggest you move on to something that doesn't bore you, unless you're a masochist, in that case have at it.

To be fair, cataclysm was pretty well received initially up until the point blizzard started nerfing everything left and right and making strange decisions.

Oof, I personally loved Cataclysm. I loved the zones - old as they are, Deepholme, Vashj'ir and Uldum were epic, besides being beautifully designed. I also liked the dungeon difficulty at the very beginning, unfortunately they weren't accessible enough for the majority of players, which resulted in the nerfs.

[Zig Zug]

This seems like a nice, but misguided idea.

Gameplay Wise.
Development/Software Wise.
Business Strategy Wise.

What problem does this concept solve? Why even bother?

What niche is being filled/met with this concept? Who are you pleasing?

What problems will this create? Technical and Gameplay?

Where is the demand for this type of system? Can it be quantified?

What projects will need to be tabled/cut in order to develop the new content?

Doing a wing of Naxx as a 5man dungeon might sound great on paper, but how are you going to do 4 horseman, with 5 people?

[nocturnus]

This seems like a nice, but misguided idea.

Gameplay Wise.
Development/Software Wise.
Business Strategy Wise.

What problem does this concept solve? Why even bother?

What niche is being filled/met with this concept? Who are you pleasing?

What problems will this create? Technical and Gameplay?

Where is the demand for this type of system? Can it be quantified?

What projects will need to be tabled/cut in order to develop the new content?

Doing a wing of Naxx as a 5man dungeon might sound great on paper, but how are you going to do 4 horseman, with 5 people?

All great questions, which would need to be addressed before even considering (re)development of a raid.

I could do an attempt, albeit limited by my ignorance on the topic; I'm not a game designer in the end. I'm a physician.

1. The continually recurring problem of content draught; creating new dungeons is an expensive undertaking. What if we could use existing raid assets to make interesting dungeon experiences?

2. People who're fed up with the same limited number of dungeons. People that like to revisit old content on a regular basis. People that like variety for their M+ runs

3. Raid encounters would have to be rebalanced; abilities that require large groups have to be removed or recalibrated. I used High Warlord Naj'entus as an example in a previous reply.

4. This is a tricky one. They would have to research and measure this.

5. Also a valid question. It would all depend on number 4.

6. 4 horsemen is an excellent example. It was already rebalanced for ten players, which suggests you could do the same for five. That said, maybe some (parts of) raids shouldn't be converted to dungeons. Maybe 4 horsemen is an outlier and most raid bosses don't have specific raid requirements; "bring the player not the class" vision.

[Relapses]

If this topic is so boring, why are you still here? You seem to add nothing particularly constructive and only bitch about how bad this idea would be. We get it, the topic is boring and you don't want anything comparable to what I suggested in your precious game.

As I've stated pretty much from my first reply to you: This idea is not above criticism. I get that you didn't create this topic to be criticized but you don't get to pick and choose how people receive your suggestion. Nothing you've said thus far has differentiated what you're suggesting from the countless topics players have floated in the past talking about all the "free real estate" Blizzard is missing out on by not making Timewalking active 100% of the time for all content. But it's abundantly clear from your replies to me and other people in this thread that you don't want to address any negative side effects your suggestion might have on the game. You want one thing and one thing alone: Meaningless platitudes from internet strangers and a happy little positivity echo chamber full of people who vaguely agree with the idea your suggestion represents.

[nocturnus]

As I've stated pretty much from my first reply to you: This idea is not above criticism. I get that you didn't create this topic to be criticized but you don't get to pick and choose how people receive your suggestion. Nothing you've said thus far has differentiated what you're suggesting from the countless topics players have floated in the past talking about all the "free real estate" Blizzard is missing out on by not making Timewalking active 100% of the time for all content. But it's abundantly clear from your replies to me and other people in this thread that you don't want to address any negative side effects your suggestion might have on the game. You want one thing and one thing alone: Meaningless platitudes from internet strangers and a happy little positivity echo chamber full of people who vaguely agree with the idea your suggestion represents.

Not so boring after all, huh?

Great!

Criticism is great; it's the essence of well made decisions. But it doesn't mean I have to agree with every single point of critique uttered. Your critique might not be valid in my point of view, because it suggests you know things for a fact, while in reality, you don't.

You started with utterly bitter remarks, based on old threads, without even having read my idea. Your criticism, which was based on something else to begin with, quickly turned into bitter, angry retorts. Hardly of added value in that way.

Start over, take example by @Xjan, if of course, you're really interested in a conversation. If you're not, no hard feelings. Just don't get bored, or irritated. It's not worth it.

[Traveler Voltin]

why does it need to be relevant?

do you have something against people soloing old content for mounts, pets, and transmogs?

[nocturnus]

why does it need to be relevant?

do you have something against people soloing old content for mounts, pets, and transmogs?

I'm one of those people, so no I don't have anything against them

The origin of my idea was content draught; we have 8 dungeons now. How long until those dungeons stop being fun and do we have reason to believe that Blizzard will regularly add new dungeons?

That's how the idea of using old assets for interesting content spawned.

[Traveler Voltin]

I'm one of those people, so no I don't have anything against them

The origin of my idea was content draught; we have 8 dungeons now. How long until those dungeons stop being fun and do we have reason to believe that Blizzard will regularly add new dungeons?

That's how the idea of using old assets for interesting content spawned.

so you want them to waste time basically remaking old content instead of working on new stuff?

i am pretty sure that people arent having fun right now and its more related to gearing and covenant issues. i think most people that get bored of current content just go farm old content or level alts.

[segara82]

Well, make crafting more relevant by making it actually viable aka everything but high mythic comparable. Or maybe even that.
Then mix the required ressources with those from all the zones. Some copper from classic, some ghost iron ore from MoP, maybe a hint of saronite from Northrend ...
You get the idea.

That way less clutter in the inventory/bank safe, and no new ressources have to be added to the whole mess we already have.

[nocturnus]

so you want them to waste time basically remaking old content instead of working on new stuff?

i am pretty sure that people arent having fun right now and its more related to gearing and covenant issues. i think most people that get bored of current content just go farm old content or level alts.

I definitely don't think they should sacrifice development time of new content in favour of redoing old content.

I'd much rather have eight brand new dungeons before the end of this expansion, but I also know it's not a very realistic wish to have. Using existing content and adapting it, seems a much more efficient thing to do with almost the same result for the players: New relevant content.

Who are these people that "aren't having fun"? Friends of yours? Because my mates and I are thoroughly enjoying SL.

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Well, make crafting more relevant by making it actually viable aka everything but high mythic comparable. Or maybe even that.
Then mix the required ressources with those from all the zones. Some copper from classic, some ghost iron ore from MoP, maybe a hint of saronite from Northrend ...
You get the idea.

That way less clutter in the inventory/bank safe, and no new ressources have to be added to the whole mess we already have.

Aye, then again, crafting has never had an important role in Wow, not as important as crafting in other MMOs, at least. I also think it's a bit 'meh', right now.

[Traveler Voltin]

I definitely don't think they should sacrifice development time on new content in favour of redoing old content.

I'd much rather have eight brand new dungeons before the end of this expansion, but I also know it's not a very realistic wish to have. Using existing content and adapting it, seems a much more efficient thing to do with almost the same result for the players: New relevant content.

Who are these people that "aren't having fun"? Friends of yours? Because my mates and I are thoroughly enjoying SL.

i have just been reading the official NA forums.
i cant even play WoW anymore thanks to the launcher not wanting to download onto my laptop.

[rhorle]

The origin of my idea was content draught; we have 8 dungeons now. How long until those dungeons stop being fun and do we have reason to believe that Blizzard will regularly add new dungeons?

If the dungeons we have now quickly stop being fun why would old raids turned into dungeons last any longer? All it does is give it a short delay while ignoring the problem you say exists. Most people don't do dungeons repeatedly because of the scenery or mechanics. They do them for some kind of reward or simply to enjoy it. And if they are doing it for the enjoyment of running it then it won't matter what the art assets are.

Could Blizzard release more content at a faster pace? Sure.

[nocturnus]

If the dungeons we have now quickly stop being fun why would old raids turned into dungeons last any longer? All it does is give it a short delay while ignoring the problem you say exists. Most people don't do dungeons repeatedly because of the scenery or mechanics. They do them for some kind of reward or simply to enjoy it. And if they are doing it for the enjoyment of running it then it won't matter what the art assets are.

Could Blizzard release more content at a faster pace? Sure.

Eh, I never said they would [last longer]...

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i have just been reading the official NA forums.
i cant even play WoW anymore thanks to the launcher not wanting to download onto my laptop.

Odd, are many players plagued by these issues?

[rhorle]

Eh, I never said they would [last longer]...

So why do it if all that happens is players grow bored of it in a week or two?

[Seranthor]

All great questions, which would need to be addressed before even considering (re)development of a raid.

I could do an attempt, albeit limited by my ignorance on the topic; I'm not a game designer in the end. I'm a physician.

1. The continually recurring problem of content draught; creating new dungeons is an expensive undertaking. What if we could use existing raid assets to make interesting dungeon experiences?

2. People who're fed up with the same limited number of dungeons. People that like to revisit old content on a regular basis. People that like variety for their M+ runs

3. Raid encounters would have to be rebalanced; abilities that require large groups have to be removed or recalibrated. I used High Warlord Naj'entus as an example in a previous reply.

4. This is a tricky one. They would have to research and measure this.

5. Also a valid question. It would all depend on number 4.

6. 4 horsemen is an excellent example. It was already rebalanced for ten players, which suggests you could do the same for five. That said, maybe some (parts of) raids shouldn't be converted to dungeons. Maybe 4 horsemen is an outlier and most raid bosses don't have specific raid requirements; "bring the player not the class" vision.

They are actually all questions that YOU need to answer in order to have a hope of getting Blizzard on board. And 6 pages in you haven't bothered.

even shorter list of questions...

What tangible benefit to the game, to the players, and to Blizzard is there?

[nocturnus]

They are actually all questions that YOU need to answer in order to have a hope of getting Blizzard on board. And 6 pages in you haven't bothered.

even shorter list of questions...

What tangible benefit to the game, to the players, and to Blizzard is there?

Are you blind? The quoted part are my answers to his questions.

You people and your emotional, knee-jerk replies. Incredible

So why do it if all that happens is players grow bored of it in a week or two?

Why do anything if people get bored of it? That's a flawed way of looking at things, buddy.

The point is that people will get bored, which is why you should add new content regularly. This, is a time-consuming and expensive undertaking, which is what spawned the idea to begin with. There's a lot of content just sitting there, what if we used that to make content which would be new to a lot of people and a trip down memory lane for veterans. That's the gist of what I initially said, anyway. You can scroll back and read if you're interested in the details.

[rhorle]

Why do anything if people get bored of it? That's a flawed way of looking at things, buddy.

Not really. Converting old raids into multiple 5-mans takes effort. If people are only going to consider them relevant for a few weeks is the cost worth it? It is something that must be considered when designing anything because resources are finite. The content would be new to everyone because you want them to resdesign all encounters. You can't just drop a raid encounter in a 5-man and do nothing else.

You've also stated that it won't be a trip down memory lane because you didn't like the Deadmines remake because you ran deadmines a lot.

[nocturnus]

Not really. Converting old raids into multiple 5-mans takes effort. If people are only going to consider them relevant for a few weeks is the cost worth it? It is something that must be considered when designing anything because resources are finite. The content would be new to everyone because you want them to resdesign all encounters. You can't just drop a raid encounter in a 5-man and do nothing else.

You've also stated that it won't be a trip down memory lane because you didn't like the Deadmines remake because you ran deadmines a lot.

It's extremely flawed. Are people considering the current dungeons 'relevant for only a few weeks'? No, right? So why would that happen to those. Your fears and assumptions don't make any sense. Of course you're not going to spend resources designing something that's only interesting for a few weeks; how stupid would that be?

You can't compare Deadmines to Black Temple. Deadmines has always been relevant; it's a leveling dungeon which I've seen multiple times throughout the years while leveling all my characters. BT, SSC, TK, SWP, etc. is all superfluous content from more than 12 years ago.

[rhorle]

It's extremely flawed. Are people considering the current dungeons 'relevant for only a few weeks'? No, right? So why would that happen to those. Your fears and assumptions don't make any sense. Of course you're not going to spend resources designing something that's only interesting for a few weeks; how stupid would that be?

You are the one that said your idea would solve the content drought that exists with 5-mans. If a content drought can exist now it will exist even with any 5-man. The relevance of 5-mans, encounters, art etc all only last a few weeks at most. After that it doesn't matter what they are because you are running it for the Xth time to push a key or whatever.

Black Temple is already a time walking raid so it isn't content from 12 years ago. Deadmines as a leveling dungeon is old content for most players since you only level each character once. Of course we can compare it to Deadmines since the revamp made it an end game dungeon at the time. So content that you and everyone else saw a lot became relevant end game content. And you dismissed it.

So why won't people dismiss the old raids in the same fashion?