How to make old content relevant

[Seranthor]

Are you blind? The quoted part are my answers to his questions.

You people and your emotional, knee-jerk replies. Incredible


Why do anything if people get bored of it? That's a flawed way of looking at things, buddy.

The point is that people will get bored, which is why you should add new content regularly. This, is a time-consuming and expensive undertaking, which is what spawned the idea to begin with. There's a lot of content just sitting there, what if we used that to make content which would be new to a lot of people and a trip down memory lane for veterans. That's the gist of what I initially said, anyway. You can scroll back and read if you're interested in the details.

Blind no... I'm not... You are asking Blizzard to spend development time on something, and if this is all you are going to give them as a reason they should do this then they are going to not bother with you and your ill-conceived idea. Feel free to continue to brow beat and insult folks that think this is is a foolish idea... It's absolutely certain to get folks to change their mind and agree with you.

[nocturnus]

You are the one that said your idea would solve the content drought that exists with 5-mans. If a content drought can exist now it will exist even with any 5-man. The relevance of 5-mans, encounters, art etc all only last a few weeks at most. After that it doesn't matter what they are because you are running it for the Xth time to push a key or whatever.

Black Temple is already a time walking raid so it isn't content from 12 years ago. Deadmines as a leveling dungeon is old content for most players since you only level each character once. Of course we can compare it to Deadmines since the revamp made it an end game dungeon at the time. So content that you and everyone else saw a lot became relevant end game content. And you dismissed it.

So why won't people dismiss the old raids in the same fashion?

First of all, if you think dungeon relevance only lasts "a few weeks at most", you're not playing the same game I am. Mythic plus is far from done and we're more than month into SL. People we're still pushing keys at the end of BFA, so I honestly wonder where you pulled this idea from that dungeons stop being relevant after a few weeks.

I never said it would solve anything. Besides, content drought is the lack of variety, not the disappearance of relevance. The idea I was playfully throwing around was based on the fact that Blizzard doesn't add new content frequently enough, probably because it's too expensive develop, considering how quickly players consume the content they provide. Ergo, I thought: well, if new content is too expensive maybe a pragmatic solution would be finding middle grounds and use existing assets. Which means they'd save development time, because they wouldn't need to design any assets.

But I already explained this more than once, so you're either very, very dense or you just have trouble reading. Either way, we're not on the same page.

Blind no... I'm not... You are asking Blizzard to spend development time on something, and if this is all you are going to give them as a reason they should do this then they are going to not bother with you and your ill-conceived idea. Feel free to continue to brow beat and insult folks that think this is is a foolish idea... It's absolutely certain to get folks to change their mind and agree with you.

I didn't ask Blizzard anything. I had an idea, shared it and the seven pages of replies kinda proves it's an interesting subject.

Insults?

The thief doth fear each bush an officer

[Drusin]

What do you guys think?

Probably been mentioned but I doubt people want to have to factor in EVERY POSSIBLE INSTANCE into their gearing path.

[rhorle]

First of all, if you think dungeon relevance only lasts "a few weeks at most", you're not playing the same game I am. Mythic plus is far from done and we're more than month into SL. People we're still pushing keys at the end of BFA, so I honestly wonder where you pulled this idea from that dungeons stop being relevant after a few weeks.

The only thing relevant about dungeons beyond a week or two is the loot/rewards. You have said it isn't about the loot so you are talking about the mechanics, art, etc. Which all become routine quickly and as people gear up become less relevant. The reason why Mythic+ had a challenge is the Timer and Affixes. People will push keys in any dungeon so you don't need old raids into dungeons for that to happen. Variety is of little importance when you are already running the content for the 30th time.

Blizzard still has to design new assets when turning old raids into 5-mans. Even when reusing the same exact art/models with out changing one thing it will still take cause them to have to create new mechanics and encounters. Why are you turning this into insults? I disagree with what you've stated and that doesn't mean I can't read or I am stupid. If you can't keep your idea standing with out insults then is it really a good idea?

[hulkgor]

I rather they leave the raids alone.

I do agree that there are a lot of wasted dungeons that should be included in the mythic+ pool, even if a few at a time. Mop and Wod had challenge modes, and Legion and BFA had mythic+, so there's around 50~ dungeons easily implemented into the current system (Vanilla-Cataclysm might not work as well without heavy changes). Again, even if only 2-5 each season.

8 dungeons atm is a very low number, imo.

[nocturnus]

The only thing relevant about dungeons beyond a week or two is the loot/rewards. You have said it isn't about the loot so you are talking about the mechanics, art, etc. Which all become routine quickly and as people gear up become less relevant. The reason why Mythic+ had a challenge is the Timer and Affixes. People will push keys in any dungeon so you don't need old raids into dungeons for that to happen. Variety is of little importance when you are already running the content for the 30th time.

Variety is of little importance to you. Okay, we've established that. I enjoy variety, especially after half a year of pushing the same eight dungeons. Therefore I would like to see more of them released over time. I think most people would side with me on this one; who wouldn't want more content variety?

Blizzard still has to design new assets when turning old raids into 5-mans. Even when reusing the same exact art/models with out changing one thing it will still take cause them to have to create new mechanics and encounters. Why are you turning this into insults? I disagree with what you've stated and that doesn't mean I can't read or I am stupid. If you can't keep your idea standing with out insults then is it really a good idea?

I didn't insult you, I called you dense, headstrong, because you keep bumping your head against the same wall, but expect a different outcome every time.

Yes, Blizzard will still have to do some work, we've already established that, so why would you keep regurgitating the same non sense? Fact of the matter is that they would have to do much less if they could use assets that are already in place. It's asinine to think that reworking an existing instance, would amount to an equal workload of designing a brand new one.

I rather they leave the raids alone.

I do agree that there are a lot of wasted dungeons that should be included in the mythic+ pool, even if a few at a time. Mop and Wod had challenge modes, and Legion and BFA had mythic+, so there's around 50~ dungeons easily implemented into the current system (Vanilla-Cataclysm might not work as well without heavy changes). Again, even if only 2-5 each season.

8 dungeons atm is a very low number, imo.

Aye. I used raids as an example because most raid areas are absolutely beautiful. But yes, they could definitely rotate some old content dungeons every season. Much like how Timewalking works, but a wee bit more elaborate and properly implemented in the M+ system.

Probably been mentioned but I doubt people want to have to factor in EVERY POSSIBLE INSTANCE into their gearing path.

Then don't. It's that simple.

[rhorle]

Variety is of little importance to you. Okay, we've established that. I enjoy variety, especially after half a year of doing the same eight dungeon, and would like to see more of them. I think most people would side with me on this one; who wouldn't want more variety?

Which is why I said that it doesn't last beyond a few weeks. Because the novelty of variety ends once you do it a few times and then it just because the same as everything else. For the rewards. Also variety ends when you are talking about using the old raid assets with out changing them. Because that isn't creating new Variety which is why you said you hated Deadmines because you ran it in the past. Which is it. Old instances add variety or they don't? Can't have it both ways.

Calling a person dense is an insult. At least have the backbone to stand by your words. You keep repeating the same arguments as well so does that mean you are dense? Banging your head on the wall? Can't read?

[nocturnus]

Which is why I said that it doesn't last beyond a few weeks. Because the novelty of variety ends once you do it a few times and then it just because the same as everything else. For the rewards. Also variety ends when you are talking about using the old raid assets with out changing them. Because that isn't creating new Variety which is why you said you hated Deadmines because you ran it in the past. Which is it. Old instances add variety or they don't? Can't have it both ways.

Calling a person dense is an insult. At least have the backbone to stand by your words. You keep repeating the same arguments as well so does that mean you are dense? Banging your head on the wall? Can't read?

No, variety doesn't last a few weeks by definition. Stop trying to push your narrow minded opinion onto others.

You keep mentioning Deadmines, but I'm afraid you completely misunderstood my point when I mentioned that instance. I invite you to go back and read my replies again; I've been nice enough to repeat and reformulate stuff for you, but I'm done with that.

No, it's not an insult. "Idiot", that would be an insult. But saying you're a self-willed, headstrong individual is merely an observation based on the way you act: You regurgitate stuff, try to present your opinion as fact and are unwilling to properly read the replies of people that either disagree with you, or show you a different way.

That's why I called you dense.

The reason I quoted Shakespeare is homework; let's see if you can figure that out.

Until then, it's best we agree to disagree, bump fists and move along.

[rhorle]

No, variety doesn't last a few weeks by definition. Stop trying to push your narrow minded opinion onto others.

It isn't narrow minded. Things don't change so the more times you run content the quicker its variety goes down. I am not misunderstanding what you said about Deadmines. I am just applying to to raids because you keep making this weird distinction between old raids and old dungeons when it comes to Variety. I am guessing because you didn't actually do the old raids when they were current content.

It says everything about the variety of content when reusing the old art and models. Deadmines was new encounters, new story, and even new models. Yet it was bad because "it was the same as when you leveled through it". So making old content be relevant to end game can't just reuse assets by your own words.

There is no difference between recycling old raids and recycling old 5-mans. Both are content that some players have down multiple times.

Some of you have very good arguments; yes, I agree that Timewalking sucks. But "my" idea (I'm quite sure lots of other people have had this super unique idea, hehe) revolves around recycling raids and turning those into dungeons and not re-using old dungeons at level-cap. I personally hated the Deadmines remake; it was too long and I had seen it too often during leveling.

[nocturnus]

It isn't narrow minded. Things don't change so the more times you run content the quicker its variety goes down. I am not misunderstanding what you said about Deadmines. I am just applying to to raids because you keep making this weird distinction between old raids and old dungeons when it comes to Variety. I am guessing because you didn't actually do the old raids when they were current content.

It says everything about the variety of content when reusing the old art and models. Deadmines was new encounters, new story, and even new models. Yet it was bad because "it was the same as when you leveled through it". So making old content be relevant to end game can't just reuse assets by your own words.

There is no difference between recycling old raids and recycling old 5-mans. Both are content that some players have down multiple times.

Deadmines is still relevant, because it's a dungeon you do while leveling up. Read, brother, read.

Oof, assumption, mother of all fuck-ups. TBC was the only expansion where I had too much time to play and actually raided "hardcore" in a few pretty high-up guilds on Kazzak. No, I'm not proud of that, ew.

There's a monumental difference, you just don't see it.

Anyway, agree to whatever...

[rhorle]

Deadmines is still relevant, because it's a dungeon you do while leveling up. Read, brother, read.

The level 85 version is not though. It being a leveling instance doesn't change that you are saying it being reused for end game didn't offer variety at end-game. There is not a monumental difference. Reusing old assets is the same regardless of it coming from a 5-man or a 10/25/40 man instance. The difference for you is that you ran deadmines a lot so it is no longer enough of a variation to mean anything.

So why would old raids be enough of a variation to players that have done those old raids a lot? Variety has little to do with why people keep doing content. Little care what the instance and models look like after running the instance for the 100th time. Otherwise you would have been perfectly fine with the level 85 variation Deadmines provided right?

[Drusin]

Then don't. It's that simple.

Actually it's not, which I'm sure you already realize.

You can "then don't" people all you want but the min/max community is going to make it mandatory and the wannabes are going to make it mandatory by copying them and then it'll be mandatory for everyone.

[Tiwack]

It's a nice idea and sentiment but I think Blizz recognizes that this isn't for everyone + it's a monumental task to retune and make to not feel like a hackjob.

[nocturnus]

Actually it's not, which I'm sure you already realize.

You can "then don't" people all you want but the min/max community is going to make it mandatory and the wannabes are going to make it mandatory by copying them and then it'll be mandatory for everyone.

If you let some stupid community force you into a particular way of playing a video game, you have other problems.

No, It is in fact that simple. I’m a practical example of how simple it actually is and there are plenty of other players that approach this game casually and never feel pressured to do anything they don’t enjoy.

Luckily MMO-C is mostly a cumulation of dedicated players, which is why this mentality you have is so prominent here. Otherwise I’d be mildly worried.

@rhorle Whatever man. You just don’t get it and I don’t see any added value in further helping you understand.

It's a nice idea and sentiment but I think Blizz recognizes that this isn't for everyone + it's a monumental task to retune and make to not feel like a hackjob.

My idea behind it was that while it would take some effort to rebalance, it would still be less work and take less resources than designing brand new dungeons which in turn could lead in more frequent content updates.

[Drusin]

If you let some stupid community force you into a particular way of playing a video game, you have other problems.

Well then I guess a large amount of people have other problems then.

No, It is in fact that simple

That it's wrong

I’m a practical example of how simple it actually is and there are plenty of other players that approach this game casually and never feel pressured to do anything they don’t enjoy.

There's exceptions to every rule, you're still going to create a shitty situation for the playerbase.

Luckily MMO-C is mostly a cumulation of dedicated players, which is why this mentality you have is so prominent here.

Post it in other places, see how you do lol

[nocturnus]

Well then I guess a large amount of people have other problems then.

Fallacy.

What is "large"? Do you have access to magic numbers no one else has? No. I get why you wouldn't want to be alone in this, but don't just make stuff up to support your flawed narrative. It's pointless and utterly transparent.

That it's wrong

There's exceptions to every rule, you're still going to create a shitty situation for the playerbase.

No. You not agreeing doesn't make it wrong. Opinions, remember? Exception to what rule? The rule you just made up? How is my (healthy) approach to pixels on a screen going to create a shitty situations for "the player base"?

You're reaching buddy and to be frank, you're not even on-topic anymore. Why can't you just accept the fact that your opinion doesn't align with mine and walk away? Why do you have this sickly urge to convince me your view is the right view?

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Let it go.

Post it in other places, see how you do lol

Where you post is relatively irrelevant; forums are where mostly dedicated players lurk - people like me are exceptions. That's why they call people on forums the vocal minority; they talk a great deal, but comprise of a very small portion of the total community, unlike the silent majority.

[Drusin]

Fallacy.

What is "large"?

Hm, what is large? I would say more than 1000 when it comes to people

Do you have access to magic numbers no one else has?

I would imagine that any numbers that I have access to that no one else does would make them magical

I get why you wouldn't want to be alone in this

I know that I'm not, as if one other person agrees then I'm not

but don't just make stuff up

What did I make up?

to support your flawed narrative.

It's not flawed

It's pointless and utterly transparent.

What's pointless? Something that didn't happen?

No. You not agreeing doesn't make it wrong.

Wrong to me and anyone that agrees with me

Opinions, remember?

Yarp

Exception to what rule?

Anything anyone says?

The rule you just made up?

Which?

How is my (healthy)

What is and isn't healthy is different for everyone

approach to pixels on a screen going to create a shitty situations for "the player base"?

Already told you, min maxxers will make farming old content for random gear mandatory.

You're reaching buddy and to be frank

No I'm not, this is obvious.

you're not even on-topic anymore.

Sure I am, why this is a bad idea

Why can't you just accept the fact that your opinion doesn't align with mine and walk away?

You respond, I respond

Why do you have this sickly urge to convince me your view is the right view?

You respond, I respond. If I don't have anything to respond to, I can't respond now can I?

Why can't you just agree to disagree? Let it go.

Why can't you? You respond I respond

Where you post is relatively irrelevant;forums are where mostly dedicated players lurk - people like me are exceptions.

I've never inventoried the type of players on forums before

That's why they call people on forums the vocal minority

I thought it was because it's not the entire playerbase but only a fraction of it

[nocturnus]

Hm, what is large? I would say more than 1000 when it comes to people



I would imagine that any numbers that I have access to that no one else does would make them magical



I know that I'm not, as if one other person agrees then I'm not


What did I make up?



It's not flawed



What's pointless? Something that didn't happen?



Wrong to me and anyone that agrees with me


Yarp


Anything anyone says?


Which?


What is and isn't healthy is different for everyone


Already told you, min maxxers will make farming old content for random gear mandatory.


No I'm not, this is obvious.


Sure I am, why this is a bad idea


You respond, I respond


You respond, I respond. If I don't have anything to respond to, I can't respond now can I?


Why can't you? You respond I respond



I've never inventoried the type of players on forums before


I thought it was because it's not the entire playerbase but only a fraction of it

Rofl, now you're just trolling.

Have a great evening, buddy!

[Xorzor]

They could always time-walk all old content, from dungeons to raids. That'd make them both relevant and useful. It's a thought.

[Drusin]

Rofl, now you're just trolling.

Have a great evening, buddy!

No trolling but I'm glad you decided to move on, have a wonderful night friend

- - - Updated - - -

They could always time-walk all old content, from dungeons to raids. That'd make them both relevant and useful. It's a thought.

Timewalked would work, just as now timewalking dungeons don't affect anything because the gear is weaker than anything available in SL M0+, though it's good for hypercasuals and freshly dinged players.
I still don't know why they haven't added Classic Timewalking yet