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  1. #1
    Stood in the Fire ShadowofVashj's Avatar
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    Wish DKs could be like hunters/Locks like...

    I wish we had a talent/ability/whatever that we could sacrifice our pet (UH spec only obv) or not have one and then get that blanket X% damage bonus. Am I crazy that pet management is a little much for a melee class, especially in pvp?

  2. #2
    you can sacrifice your pet, it is called, frost spec

  3. #3
    Frost DK is the dps option if you don't like pets. Unholy would need a massive overhaul for a pet-less option to function, as many of the specs mechanics are tied around the ghoul. The water elemental was never a big deal mechanically for frost mages, and neither were warlock pets for destro/aff which is why lonely winter/Grim of sacrifice works for those classes/specs. Unholy does not have that luxury with how the ghoul and other undead minions function within the spec.

  4. #4
    Warlocks don't have a viable petless option. Grimoire of Sacrifice is a dps loss compared to not taking a talent at all.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Warlocks don't have a viable petless option. Grimoire of Sacrifice is a dps loss compared to not taking a talent at all.
    still is an option though....

  6. #6
    The Lightbringer KOUNTERPARTS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowofVashj View Post
    Am I crazy that pet management is a little much for a melee class, especially in pvp?

    If you are implying that managing your pet is even remotely difficult, especially in PvP, then yes you must be crazy.

  7. #7
    The Unstoppable Force Kaleredar's Avatar
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    The only ways that DKs need to be more like warlocks and hunters is that they need to have far more pet customization options.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
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  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Frinata's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Warlocks don't have a viable petless option. Grimoire of Sacrifice is a dps loss compared to not taking a talent at all.
    That's not really the arguement being made though. DPS loss =/= The Class doesn't work without it. When you sacrifice the demon, you gain that demon's special command ability, and do some added damage to your spells

    If you lose your ghoul as an UH DK, you lose a good chunk of where your damage comes from, as well as the utility it brings (usually in solo or PVP content), in the form of the pustules or w/e they're called the pet has a chance to put on it.

    Sure, it might be a DPS loss to sacrifice the pet, but the class/specc can function as expected without the pet. The same can't be said for UH DKs in their current itteration.

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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowofVashj View Post
    I wish we had a talent/ability/whatever that we could sacrifice our pet (UH spec only obv) or not have one and then get that blanket X% damage bonus. Am I crazy that pet management is a little much for a melee class, especially in pvp?
    You cannot viably play a Demo Warlock or Beast Mastery Hunter without pets. Unholy is specifically a pet spec.

  10. #10
    I was expecting a thread about undead taming, naming pets, and stabling pets...

    Timmy has always been the best/worst part of Unholy. Best of times he can dps when you can't. Worst of times he randomly despawns in an abyss or two or five (hi, Cata). Best of times he tanks crazy AoE by himself with not a scratch. Worst of times his passive doesn't work and he dies randomly anyway. Best of times he can chase down immediately and get on threats you can't yet reach and even stun them. Worst of times he gets randomly ST'd by something and dies. Best of times Timmy never dies and you don't have to worry about him. Worst of times he dies again and again and you have to wonder why Timmy like waves on Madness so much. Maybe Timmy like water. Maybe water remind Timmy of happier time. What does water have that I don't, Timmy? Why do you throw yourself against the winds and waves Timmy? Ahem.

    Timmy is either unkillable free godmode dps or useless squishy stain on floor and there's rarely any inbetween. Like, pet actually tanking usefuly against an only cleave hungry boss and healing it with DC or sacing ghoul to spirit link totem heal allies. There is good Timmy. Bad Timmy is needing to despawn in M+ to make skip and not having the summon ready incase it randomly dies to spaghetti whacky wavey arm flailing tube man cleave. Sometimes you want the best for Timmy, but can't give best for Timmy.

    I love Timmy but I hate Timmy. It's complicated.

    Maybe a sac talent that somehow made your autos give wounds instead of ghoul claw, or death coils that increased haste instead of gave ghoul energy, or dark transformation that transformed dk instead and caused their autos to cleave for shadow, or fire chain on transform lighting up target and all between instead of between you and ghoul. It would have to do a lot, basically. At that point it's almost an entirely new style and almost a new spec even. So many abilities change with just one talent, maybe that pushes the scope of what one talent should do.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Draknalor186's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowofVashj View Post
    I wish we had a talent/ability/whatever that we could sacrifice our pet (UH spec only obv) or not have one and then get that blanket X% damage bonus. Am I crazy that pet management is a little much for a melee class, especially in pvp?
    The pet (ghoul, army, skulker) does most of our dmg (at least 50%).. so it would be quite insane to get that much dmg increase to the player,


  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Draknalor186 View Post
    The pet (ghoul, army, skulker) does most of our dmg (at least 50%).. so it would be quite insane to get that much dmg increase to the player,

    I think the better analysis would be how different abilities would still break down with such a talent if it modified everything (previous post I outline maybe how it could). Realistically if it was all converted the largest jump may be like according to the chart... well, melee or autos (if separated by shadow damage events like DT). This brings the skill floor and ceiling closer, which has always been the problem with pet pruning talents as usually the difference in playstyle isn't a complexity increase. Maybe in my example things like haste instead of ghoul energy on DC may bring more ceiling, or target being anything hostile or friendly for unholy pact fire chains may increase ceiling, and maybe autos doing wounds instead of claw being manipulated by such DC haste and/or other interactions like Unholy Assault usage may also raise skill ceiling (or lower it, more power in just a cd after all, even if more technical or preppy). But I think Blizz is working to lower disparity between casual and hardcore players.. so maybe this kind of approach wouldn't be as welcome.

  13. #13
    Meh thats like petless beast mastery hunter or demonology warlock. doesn't make sense unless they overhaul the whole spec again.

  14. #14
    The issue isn't DK doesn't have a petless option (it obviously does). What you're essentially saying is the DK version of BM/Demo should have a petless option, which is nuts.

    Unholy is a pet spec now and it's got the strongest theming it's had since cata. Deal with it.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    The issue isn't DK doesn't have a petless option (it obviously does). What you're essentially saying is the DK version of BM/Demo should have a petless option, which is nuts.

    Unholy is a pet spec now and it's got the strongest theming it's had since cata. Deal with it.
    Devil's advocate here, but Unholy's original theme was just fine. The pets were a footnote to Unholy's AoE/DoTs. For some, this is the unholy we prefer, but it is what it is

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    Devil's advocate here, but Unholy's original theme was just fine. The pets were a footnote to Unholy's AoE/DoTs. For some, this is the unholy we prefer, but it is what it is
    Eh, correct me if I'm wrong but since the beginning, unholy was the only spec with permanent pet. Yes, it also had 1 extra disease, but that's not what they chose to build on.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Eh, correct me if I'm wrong but since the beginning, unholy was the only spec with permanent pet. Yes, it also had 1 extra disease, but that's not what they chose to build on.
    Pet was optional, diseases and AoE were what the spec was built on. You had an extra disease, but also reduced DnD CD, Unholy Blight, and increased magic damage from several talents.

    Need I remind you that UH tanks were a thing (the best for most of the expansion, mind you), and that without a pet they played identically to dps UH.
    Last edited by Absintheminded; 2021-01-30 at 01:51 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    Pet was optional, diseases and AoE were what the spec was built on. You had an extra disease, but also reduced DnD CD, Unholy Blight, and increased magic damage from several talents.
    I mean it's not really possible to get to garg without taking the ghoul talents, 'it's optional' becomes a bit wobbly if you're forced to take tanking talents (which are obviously sub-optimal). Not to mention unholy tanks were 'a thing' for naxx and eye, they certainly weren't 'a thing' come Ulduar.

    Unholy always had an issue with the summons and diseases competing for thematic space to the detriment of the spec, as opposed to working synergistically (hello new unholy blight). Also, let's not pretend DK development begins and ends in Wrath. I'm not trying to argue that diseases were never important to unholy but by ToT they were entirely designed around snapshotting and became essentially non-interactive in WoD with its removal.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowofVashj View Post
    I wish we had a talent/ability/whatever that we could sacrifice our pet (UH spec only obv) or not have one and then get that blanket X% damage bonus. Am I crazy that pet management is a little much for a melee class, especially in pvp?
    Wdym you get a free kick/root and a stun and you barely have to manage anything at all.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    The only ways that DKs need to be more like warlocks and hunters is that they need to have far more pet customization options.
    Yeah, if anything unholy should get to learn to summon undead from out in the world rather than just have a ghoul. It’s the pet spec.

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