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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    this isnt wrong, but point is that there is no conclusive evidence that raising undead is limited only to the helm.

    e.g.
    the undead in outland and draenor. our even kelthuzad messing with mice that caused him to get kicked out of dalaran in the first place. necromancy isnt really tied to the helm or frostmourne. @Glazey said [He had help from of Ner'zhul who was channeling his power through Frostmourne.] conerning the point about Arthas raising an army. Stating that Nerzhul had the helm, which allowed him the power to use frostmourne as a conduit and raise the dead. Putting the helm as the source and thus frostmourne being just a sword and thus not held by any of the lore bounds at all.

    to which my point is, that there are multiple other cults and parties raising things into undeath. there is no involvement of the helm or the sword. until we have a clear source saying "nerzhul channeled his power through frostmourne to raise Arthas' army" then thats not a fact, just a guess. Which is why I asked him to provide a source.
    Yeah, there's quite a bit of examples of necromancy that don't involve either of those artifacts, and some examples that cannot be tied to Azerothian Scourge at all. It's just in the cases of Arthas and Bolvar it's kinda weird. Like i said, unlike Kel'thuzad neither one of those had any arcane knowledge, let alone necromantic. So it had to be done through a medium. The only question - which one.

  2. #142
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draylock View Post
    Yeah, there's quite a bit of examples of necromancy that don't involve either of those artifacts, and some examples that cannot be tied to Azerothian Scourge at all. It's just in the cases of Arthas and Bolvar it's kinda weird. Like i said, unlike Kel'thuzad neither one of those had any arcane knowledge, let alone necromantic. So it had to be done through a medium. The only question - which one.
    Yeap. Well this expansion is, if not the last, a prime opportunity to explain how the weapon and the helm work. Their extent or limitations. They can leave the nathreziem plot for the light vs void expansion but I hope they don't close this chapter without completing this specific loop. Arthas is one of, if not the icon, for this story. Hopefully they end it well.
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by GrimReaper673 View Post
    Crafted by the Burning Legion to corrupt the world of Azeroth, the soul-stealing runeblade Frostmourne was shattered by Ashbringer atop Icecrown Citadel. Countless souls were freed from the broken blade, but others were not so fortunate. Today the shards of Frostmourne can be recrafted and infused with even more power. However, the spirits still trapped within must first be subdued and bent to the wielder's will.

    Straight from the Death Knight narrative. The bolded portion indicates that the 1Hs surpass Frostmourne's power. Also, just because Frostmourne contains the power of the Maw, does not mean that Frostmourne contained the power from the WHOLE Maw. If you want to assume that consuming souls increases the power of a runeblade, then it theoretically would take no more than killing lots of things (like the murder hobos the PCs are) to have even a generic runeblade eventually surpass Frostmourne. I guarentee that my DKs "killed" stat is far higher than a few thousand. So does his runeblade exceed Frostmourne's power?
    A few lines of txt dont even back up the actual power of the weapons, they are nothing more than just slightly more powerful runeblades and compare nothing to the power of frostmourne, frostmourne has the ability to use each of the souls in the weapon and thier abilities and was used to raise sapphiron and also bound sindgragosa to the weapon itself, the blades of the fallen do nothing other than support the frost power abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draylock View Post
    Such as? And where is this coming from? Your personal preference of 2H over DW? Also, Glazey is kinda right. Frostmourne is not the item responsible for raising and controlling Undead (that would be Helm of Dominance). Frostmourne is responsible for the Frost (duh) part of its wielder's powers, as well as severing the spirit of whatever it's attacking and acting as a conduit for the wielder's powers. It's also a damn good sword (in a fantasy world, IRL it would be shit ). What are Blades of the Fallen Prince? The same thing except there's two of them, they look much cooler as a sword pair (then again, DW >>>> 2H) and, I quote, "the shards of Frostmourne can be recrafted and infused with even more power". Take it as you will. That same paragraph also says that Frostmourne was crafted by the Burning Legion and we all know now that that is a load of shit
    Frostmourne has the ability to raise the dead, arthas didnt have that ability and didnt gain the ability to do it without the weapon until he wore the armor, becomming a deathknight doesnt just give you all the powers of one, frostmourne has the abilities in the runes and just needs to activate them, sapphiron was raised by frostmourne before arthas went to icecrown.

    DKs are usually created in 2 ways, throught the soul of a warlock/necromancer and then they would retain abilities to use as a deathknight or through a runeblade taking your soul where you would actually need to train in deathknight abilities, the runeblades grants the user access to DK abilities straight away as the weapon itself has the abilities.

    The lore also doesnt support the power of the weapons and frostmourne is just far supperior in power, the lines of txt were probably put in just to make the DKs think they are getting something stronger when the actual abilities it has are weak in comparrison.

    Frostmourne is a direct link to the actual lich king so it can easily channel necromancer powers that the lich king had.
    Last edited by kenn9530; 2021-01-19 at 11:16 PM.
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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Frostmourne was shattered...the Warglaives were abandoned

    Want relevance to the story? Why would any Death Knight want to carry around a replica of the symbol of their former slavery? A constant reminder of the ones they killed while not under their own control?

    What reason can you give me to wield Frostmourne other than you as a player think it looks cool?
    Transmog needs no reason other than looking cool.

    And you can have Draenei run around with a Doomhammer that caved in the skull of many of their fellows, Orcs wielding a staff that destroyed their homeland, or humans using the weapons that killed a beloved king of theirs. This argument holds little water, and DKs are hardly an emotional lot about the sword to begin with anyway given that they had 0 problem using weapons made from the thing that still contained a piece of Arthas's soul or something.

    Frotstmourne being shattered also means little. We're pals with the guy who forged it in the first place and the Ebon Blade probably have the pieces. If Blizzard wants it reforged, there's 0 lore obstacles now.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Transmog needs no reason other than looking cool.

    And you can have Draenei run around with a Doomhammer that caved in the skull of many of their fellows, Orcs wielding a staff that destroyed their homeland, or humans using the weapons that killed a beloved king of theirs. This argument holds little water, and DKs are hardly an emotional lot about the sword to begin with anyway given that they had 0 problem using weapons made from the thing that still contained a piece of Arthas's soul or something.

    Frotstmourne being shattered also means little. We're pals with the guy who forged it in the first place and the Ebon Blade probably have the pieces. If Blizzard wants it reforged, there's 0 lore obstacles now.
    If your unable to actually wield the weapon with no consequences then you dont deserve to have it for transmog simple as that, its a weapon for the sole use by the lich king and noone else should get it. Its a lich king weapon not a deathknight weapon.
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  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    If your unable to actually wield the weapon with no consequences then you dont deserve to have it for transmog simple as that, its a weapon for the sole use by the lich king and noone else should get it. Its a lich king weapon not a deathknight weapon.
    Sure, that's why Priests ran around with a dagger containing a proto Old God, all 3 Warlock artifacts were all manner of dangerous including one that drains entire zones of life, plate users forged a weapon mirroring Frostmourne in ICC, my Warrior smacked people with Garrosh's very obviously corrupted axe, and Unholy used a runeblade explicitly said to be stronger than Frostmourne, and they all became insane and the character was deleted and- no wait, we're PCs and above that sort of nonsense.

    We've used tons of hilariously corruptive stuff over the years and came out fine, we were exposed to an Old God at full power and came out with phat lewt. At this point Frostmourne isn't anything special anymore save for its cool appearance, pun intended.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Glazey View Post
    I see my point went over your head.

    1. Preventing something from being transmog because it's no longer in the story makes no sense since transmog is just dress up, has no impact or relevance on the story.

    2. Timewalking isn't not canon material in the slightest. There is no story. It's just revamped as a special in-game event you can do. Otherwise, explain how and why Demon Hunters decided to beat up the guy who they knew was in the right, take his weapons, then go back into our timeline beat Gul'dan and see Illidan wielding the same weapons we yoinked.

    3. The weapons were either discarded or given away. Shadow Priest was thrown into the ocean then given to N'Zoth, Ashbringer is on a mantle. Yet, those are still able to be transmog but story wise they are useless.
    Ummm yes it is. There are quests literally within that reference it being more than just a cool let's go see. Timewalking is canon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Glazey View Post
    What the fuck are you even talking about? It can be done in any number of ways, Questline, defeat Arthas in timewalking, combination of both or some other way. It doesn't really matter cause guess what, it's transmog. It doesn't matter.

    2nd, Who the fuck said they were deleted? Wanna stop making shit up? I said they were depleted and discarded.

    Illidan has Warglaives of Azzinoth after you defeated Gul'dan. After that, it became the Flamereapers.
    Keep getting mad when your fallacious arguments are getting torn apart. The artifacts lost their supreme powers they had, but still function as what they are physically. You LITERALLY implied that having them now is irrational when it is not except for Xal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Sure, that's why Priests ran around with a dagger containing a proto Old God, all 3 Warlock artifacts were all manner of dangerous including one that drains entire zones of life, plate users forged a weapon mirroring Frostmourne in ICC, my Warrior smacked people with Garrosh's very obviously corrupted axe, and Unholy used a runeblade explicitly said to be stronger than Frostmourne, and they all became insane and the character was deleted and- no wait, we're PCs and above that sort of nonsense.

    We've used tons of hilariously corruptive stuff over the years and came out fine, we were exposed to an Old God at full power and came out with phat lewt. At this point Frostmourne isn't anything special anymore save for its cool appearance, pun intended.
    And if you followed the story, none of those compare to frostmourne.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    Frostmourne is arguably the most iconic weapon in WoW and one of the few cases where I feel like no, it should not be put in players' hands.
    You know we can ride Deathwing as a mount right.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post

    And if you followed the story, none of those compare to frostmourne.
    Did you? Xal'atah corrupted some of its wielders as well, and had enough of a will of its own to abandon them when their purpose is served. Shadowmourne is explicitly said to be almost as dangerous as its sister weapon. Apocalypse has devoured worlds. The Maw of the Damned has an all-consuming hunger and feeds on the wielder when not sated. The Scepter of Sargeras has destroyed Draenor and was almost completely filled with the Dark Titan's energies. Frostmourne... corrupted one guy who was already sliding down the slippery slope at full speed by his lonesome. It was no joke in the end, but it really isn't beyond the other toys we wielded, not anymore.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  10. #150
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radaney View Post
    You know we can ride Deathwing as a mount right.
    It isn't Deathwing any more than the drake mount from Dragon Soul is Alexstrasza.

    Nice try though, 4/10, would hyperbole again.
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    how about a counter.
    “Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit.”
    — The inscription on Frostmourne's dais

    how do you know power here means curse or curse of undeath? No where does it say that.
    It's a curse. Muradin reads them aloud to Arthas in the Cavern and straight out says "This is a cursed blade". Arthas says "He'll take up any curse in order to save my people". The curse had sucked his soul out, becoming a Death Knight. We know DKs can never truly die as they can be resurrected through the harshest conditions (Darion after Light's Hope 2: Electric Boogaloo)

    now you can say, well we know arthas lost his soul the moment he touched it. Sure we know that as players. But our knowledge is based on what blizzard has dictated and that is very fluid. We initially knew that the lich king made the armor, then we knew that nope it was kiljaeden, then we knew it was nathreziem with the legion and then we were told it was STOLEN by the nathreziem, but then it was told that the jailer had them crafted by the runecarver who then had it "delivered" to the legion and [as per the book in the spire of unseen guests] the nathreziem might be upto a great many things.

    my point is. There is no "we can safely say" anymore for this item, because not only has it been in flux before, it is in flux CURRENTLY due to the runecarver in Torghast.

    Which also opens the avenue that this blade can now make a return.

    It is a double edged sword. pun intended.

    the same flexibility that allows the swords ability to be variable, introduces the flexibility that it COULD make a comeback.
    Yeah, anything long running will have retcons. It happens, but until the new stuff is established fully, we only have what we have. To completely dismiss stuff just because there is a possibly it will be changed is a ridiculous notion. We're talking about the Dais, not the actual sword itself.

    I'm not against the sword making a return, I was against bringing it back just for transmog purposes. Plus Shalamourne is more than likely going to be stronger and the replacement.



    a source for this?
    When Icecrown was being destroyed by Illidan's spell. All Arthas had at the time was Frostmourne from the Lich King, with the Lich King powers weakening, so was Frostmournes and the power that he gave to Arthas.


    again, source?
    you have any actual quote saying "yes nerzhul was making it happen". When Arthas raised Sylvanas he didnt have the helm. Kelthuzad wasnt there. He did it. Just as you can call it silly that he cant. I can say, well its just as dumb to say its not because all of the variables you presented didnt exist in this case.

    you NEED a source. You are establishing pillars and facts without an actual quote or source.

    You can make your choice. Either ignore lore completely, or use sources to back it up and involve it. Chose your position. "i want frostmourne and i dont care about lore" or "i want frostmourne because the lore supports it and it looks cool".
    You're asking for sources on the most basic stuff. You claimed that Arthas raised the army himself. Which is insanely false to the point of where I am questioning if you've played/watched anything from WC3. The undead scourge was a thing before Arthas even took up Frostmourne. Stratholme being the biggest turning point in Arthas' life.

    Again, your point was Arthas raised the army himself, which he most certainly did not. He raised people and helped, yes. All by himself? No.

    Do I really have to make my stance on this, clear, again? I do not care for how it is brought into the game for transmog. It could be done like Warglaives, it could be done through a quest chain, it could done any number of ways aslong if it gets put into the game. Alanar's position was that he said it has to be reforged and brought back into the lore in order for it to be transmogged. I refuted that saying it doesn't need to be reforged.



    thats your opinion. and you know what they say about assholes and opinions.....
    Throwing insults now? With your lack of knowledge of WC3, and inability to see what my position is, after I made it clear a few times that I didn't care for which how Frostmourne was brought into transmog. So maybe you won't try being an asshole next time when we were having a nice conversation?

    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Ummm yes it is. There are quests literally within that reference it being more than just a cool let's go see. Timewalking is canon.
    The best argument you have here is that you go and relive the past. You relive what has already been done. In which case, I am corrected here.


    Keep getting mad when your fallacious arguments are getting torn apart. The artifacts lost their supreme powers they had, but still function as what they are physically. You LITERALLY implied that having them now is irrational when it is not except for Xal.
    Again, missing the point. Transmog is a system that exists outside the story. Which is my point about Xal/Ashbringer. They were depleted and discarded, yet we can use them for transmog. Using them now is irrational in the story, using them for transmog is perfectly fine. You're confusing story/lore/canon with a system that exists outside it. None of my argument about transmog has been "torn apart".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    No one shattered the warglaives into a hundred pieces, much less reforged those pieces into new weapons. Had that happened, it wouldn't make any sense that DHs got that mog either.

    And the warglaives are weapons that we've been able to get since day 1 of Black Temple, further making it an invalid comparison.
    You do know you don't get the Warglaive transmog through looting them, right? The transmog warglaives are from a different item. the point is that is it doeesn't matter if a lore reason (Shattered) or a gameplay reason (Looting). Transmog isn't bound by either of them. Heritage armor are not items you loot. Warglaive transmog is not a item you loot (But having them is a prerequisite).
    Last edited by Glazey; 2021-01-20 at 10:01 AM.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Just have a secret Shadowlands vendor sell a "Replica Frostmourne" transmog item with no stats. Done.
    This. No more nerds need to be hurt.

  13. #153
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    my god, some people are rly stupid about this subject, and go even to the point of having the schadenfreude thing, thats so sad.

    Some people think transmog is lore and are hypocrite enough to say one is ok and the other is not.

    - The same way the DH went back in time to get the warglaives transmog we can went back in time and get the Frostmourne transmog

    - In shadowlands we find the OG guy who create the frostmourne, the most easy thing to do is give to him the 2 little blades for him to reforje into one weapon, frostmourne again, this would be a dope chainquest where you grab special items in the maw/torgast for him.

    Stop trying to shut down the idea because you do not like DKs, or you just want to be a bad person.

  14. #154
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    Okay that's enough. Apparently people can't disagree without insulting each other so closing this now before it gets even more out of hand.
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