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  1. #41
    Does anyone actually enjoy m+ in general?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Prideful cld be the worst thing to ever happen to m+ tanking imo. Obviously you've always wanted the perfect route and being under trash % is bad as well as over. But now you gotta plan the run using tools even more so u hit the 20% at the right time and im sure that puts a lot of wpuld be tanks off.
    As a tank who does plan my routes depending on the group - I can really see how repelling this might be for new people.
    I had a dps friend who had way more experience in SD, so I asked him if he could provide a route for me to follow as he did it way more times than I did. His response was - If I knew how to plan the routes with pride I would be tanking myself.

    Current game can be ok at times, where your dps understand what the F is happening and can help you, but I had quite a few runs where DPS just waste their utility when they should wait for it to get spicy (enrage, casts, buff and so on)

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Prideful cld be the worst thing to ever happen to m+ tanking imo. Obviously you've always wanted the perfect route and being under trash % is bad as well as over. But now you gotta plan the run using tools even more so u hit the 20% at the right time and im sure that puts a lot of wpuld be tanks off.
    It's a neat idea that is ultimately not going to work out for most players imo. Missing a count by .1% can literally brick a key. Many Tyr bosses are effectively impossible without Prideful. It doesn't feel like a buff - it feels like ZAP! in Mechagon which was completely mandatory for any serious key. Dungeons are balanced around using it rathe than letting it be "Extra."

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    I prefer being able to tank things the traditional way. In the mob(s) face, holding threat, using personal CDs to stay alive and manage threat. I’m not a huge fan of kiting. That’s not to say I don’t enjoy tanking m+, but I do prefer raid tanking to m+ at this time. I don’t mind movement to avoid or deal with mechanics, but kiting just to stay alive doesn’t feel that fun.
    Hopefully blizz hears this.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Hopefully blizz hears this.
    Yeah, kiting doesn't really feel "tankish". However I'm afraid we are past the point of no return in regarding M+ tanking. Unless Blizz increase mobs speed groups would still expect tank to kite because healer could be dpsing instead of healing.

  6. #46
    I enjoy kiting on my hunter, and to a lesser extent some of my other DPS classes. I don't enjoy kiting as a tank.

    "Hey, your mom is stinky! (/taunt) ...now come catch me, I can run away really fast! ...and for some reason am wearing all this armor...which would seem counterproductive as a runner, but alas, that's how we do now. Ignore all those people damaging you and keep chasing me...if you don't I shall insult your mother a second time!"

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
    ~ Daryl Davis

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    As a tank who does plan my routes depending on the group - I can really see how repelling this might be for new people.
    I had a dps friend who had way more experience in SD, so I asked him if he could provide a route for me to follow as he did it way more times than I did. His response was - If I knew how to plan the routes with pride I would be tanking myself.

    Current game can be ok at times, where your dps understand what the F is happening and can help you, but I had quite a few runs where DPS just waste their utility when they should wait for it to get spicy (enrage, casts, buff and so on)
    This is my response too lol. My job is avoid mechanics, dps real hard, and follow the tank as he leads us Mongos around haha. Any time I've tanked its much easier content and I know the general layout of % like "plaguefall needs more trash than you'd think ".

  8. #48
    The game is shifting to fast paced gameplay to compete with other similar games, and ramp up viewership/competition. They don't give a crap about the tanking tradition. Aggro gen, damage delt and mitigation are extremely out of "traditional" proportion (not factoring in class to class comparison and that disparaging, unbalanced mess). I usually push pretty hard every M+ season, this season finally, I'm just not playing. Tanking in SL blows

  9. #49
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    Kind of split on the answer here, because it's entirely depends on how high of keys we're talking here and how geared and what class you play.

    At a certain point, due to the nature of M+, it becomes absolutely inevitable that you have to kite and there's nothing they can do design wise to change this aside from making pretty much every mob in the game just start casting or hitting people if the tank is out of melee range (some mobs do this already). M+ by it's design is a time trial and in order to make time, it often means pulling as much as you can with as many CDs as you can, and trying to survive. This is accomplished by tanking CDs, external CDs, how powerful your DPS CDs are in the group and how fast you can actually kill the group. Aside from certain tricks, the bosses are generally static and binary, meaning that if you can kill the boss, the only real puzzle left to solve is how fast you can shave off time killing trash in the dungeon. The scaling nature eventually puts that into kiting territory, and unless you remove timers (which would also cause an issue), we're always going to run into this problem.

    A lot of people might say "well just remove the timer", which I don't necessarily agree with. All that accomplishes is turning dungeons into a CC fest, where you slowly work your way through a dungeon, fighting as few mobs as possible. Oftentimes people think that current keys are simply AoE fests, when they're far more intricate than that. When you're mass pulling like you're pretty much forced to at high key levels, a lot of the planning of defensives, offensives, externals, kiting and who interrupts what (and when) is completely overlooked. Watching a group pull 20 mobs might look easy on paper, but it's usually a result of dozens of decisions of each individual person in the group to prevent the group from just falling over and wiping (often times just one interrupt being missed can lead to deaths). A stark difference from the old design of TBC dungeons where mobs just "hurr durr, I just auto attack very hard".

    Basically what I'm trying to say is that M+ generally evolves around how fast and efficiently you can kill trash. Lots of variables are put into how you pull trash, but like I mentioned, you're going to have to kite at some point, otherwise you just won't time the key. Keep in mind, that a lot of the affixes lend themselves to you kiting regardless of how hard mobs hit (necrotic for example). Some tanks can face tank longer than other tanks, while the former will just fall over dead. Some group compositions lend themselves to molesting trash, while the kite tanks. Remember, that as long as you can hold threat or get a good baseline of threat, kiting mobs means that you're using the greatest defensive in the game (which is taking zero damage).

    So yeah, it really depends on the definition and who you're playing with. If your DPS is very bad, the only way you're going to salvage it is kiting. Is that a fault of the game, or should tanks be able to sit there virtually forever and just heal or mitigate through all of the damage. If your healer is bad, and you've exhausted all options, are you going to fault kiting? Finally if the tank (yourself) isn't particularly equipped to deal with a certain key level (for example, the length at which you can face tank stuff isn't that long), is it necessarily bad that you have to switch to gathering threat and moving towards kiting to actually manage the key?

    Kiting is a necessary tool at the end of the day. It allows people to do keys they would otherwise not be able to do if they didn't kite (and kiting is oftentimes done as a group, if you want to do it correctly) and is absolutely part of dungeon tactics. While I personally had loads of fun self-sustaining as a tank, it's also sort of broken if you can just sit there and the healer is basically there to manage themselves and the DPS. One could argue however the kiting is put into the game too early, or some tanks rely on kiting far earlier than other tanks currently do (which is indeed a major problem).

    Finally, lets not pretend this is a problem that solely exists in Shadowlands either. Once you reach a certain key level in both Legion/BFA, it basically meant pulling a shit load of mobs, getting threat, and kiting while your DPS killed everything.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Melairs View Post
    The game is shifting to fast paced gameplay to compete with other similar games, and ramp up viewership/competition. They don't give a crap about the tanking tradition. Aggro gen, damage delt and mitigation are extremely out of "traditional" proportion (not factoring in class to class comparison and that disparaging, unbalanced mess). I usually push pretty hard every M+ season, this season finally, I'm just not playing. Tanking in SL blows
    They keep hunting for esports to spin off and it is hurting the overall gameplay feel because competitive tuning over quality of life tuning has left many specs unviable to stop them from dominating the competitive scene.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by xpose View Post
    You're not really tanking if all you do is do some damage then kite.

    "Ya man I can easily tank a +15"

    "Damn how do you do it?"

    "Oh, I run in and do some damage then run around in circles so they can't hit me."

    If kiting is the meta they might as well just buff dps classes armor values and let them "tank"
    what else do you propose ? even on low keys like +8-10 if you are like 200 itlv while doing them kiting is only option once you are out of def cds because you will get anihilated if people dont dps down stuff in time i can only imagine how awefull it is on like +15.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    I take so much damage. I have plenty of gear but it just doesn’t matter.

    As someone who tries to pug it is very frustrating. I get a lot of healers who have been told that they need to dps so they sit there not healing me so they can dps while I run for my life and everyone expects me to hold aggro.

    As a monk I need constant heals, healers who wait until I’m at half health before they start healing often realize they can’t catch up. The number of times I die 5 seconds into kiting (because of stagger and maybe a spell hit) is incredibly disheartening. I won’t die to spikes but I take a lot of consistent damage. And if I’m pugging with a disc priest? Yeah, that’s hopeless.

    I’m contemplating saving my mitigation until later in a pull and letting my health drop drastically at the start just to try to get healers to pay attention. I typically use my absorb pretty early in the pull (after purifying twice to get it bigger) but I think saving it and making the healer actually heal me might work better.
    From my resto shaman perspective in a low M+ env for the moment (2-5) knowing what to do as tank has been far more important than the tank’s class. I failed many +3 with ilvl 200 “fotm tanks” and breezed many +3 with subpar ilvl and class tanks.

    I can’t comment about Monks viability, I only saw 1 Monk tank in 30-40 runs till now and he was just terrible but that was because he didn’t know what buttons to press at all and was really too much undergeared to tank a +3.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Kind of split on the answer here, because it's entirely depends on how high of keys we're talking here and how geared and what class you play.
    .
    does it though ? i mean i coudl only assume (since i didnt do more then +10 this season ) but i do assume that tanking +15 with liek 213 gear is not that different then tanking +10 with 200 itlv and like tanking +7 with 190 itlv.

    and it sucks in every one of those .

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Does anyone actually enjoy m+ in general?
    When I play with people I know and abilities I trust, then yes - exceptionally enjoyable.

    All else, no.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    From my resto shaman perspective in a low M+ env for the moment (2-5) knowing what to do as tank has been far more important than the tank’s class. I failed many +3 with ilvl 200 “fotm tanks” and breezed many +3 with subpar ilvl and class tanks.

    I can’t comment about Monks viability, I only saw 1 Monk tank in 30-40 runs till now and he was just terrible but that was because he didn’t know what buttons to press at all and was really too much undergeared to tank a +3.
    In +2-5, sure. I’m trying to do +11 fortified and I know the dungeon really well, I’m just pretty weak. Also a bit shellshocked from having necrotic and fortified in back to back weeks. But I’m 212 ilvl, and I just find myself incredibly dependent on the others in my group. I can’t kite and interrupt, so I need dps on that, and way too many healers are trying to be leet dpsers which means I end up kiting because they aren’t healing, so then aggro is a problem.

    I think way too many people below cutting edge have read guides designed for cutting edge and are trying to optimize inappropriately for the level they are at. Yes, healers at +15 are doing a lot of dps, but that’s in a highly coordinated group. At +11, your group is chaos and you should just focus on keeping the tank alive.

    Regarding monk - I’m not gonna get spiked down, all my deaths will be gradual. But I take more damage than other tanks so I need more hps incoming. In raids I’m pretty good because most deaths come from spikes. In m+ I can’t tank a lot of mobs without cooldowns or a lot of mob control. I’m good at kiting but it can be hard to keep aggro that way.
    Last edited by Scrod; 2021-01-15 at 06:05 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    In +2-5, sure. I’m trying to do +11 fortified and I know the dungeon really well, I’m just pretty weak. Also a bit shellshocked from having necrotic and fortified in back to back weeks. But I’m 212 ilvl, and I just find myself incredibly dependent on the others in my group. I can’t kite and interrupt, so I need dps on that, and way too many healers are trying to be leet dpsers which means I end up kiting because they aren’t healing, so then aggro is a problem.

    I think way too many people below cutting edge have read guides designed for cutting edge and are trying to optimize inappropriately for the level they are at. Yes, healers at +15 are doing a lot of dps, but that’s in a highly coordinated group. At +11, your group is chaos and you should just focus on keeping the tank alive.
    A good healer (well, it should be anyone with a working brain honestly) takes up to a maximum of 3 pulls to understand if he can dps too or if he has to focus mostly on healing for whatever reason.

    I dps only when I see that the other 4 are smart enough to avoid avoidable damage (that is not often the case in my bracket but sometimes happens).

    Healers should primarily heal, better take 15-20 seconds more to clear a pack than wasting 1 minute with a wipe because I was dpsing instead of healing.

    Also, on a side note but this is probably just me, dpsing with a resto shaman feels so bad that I’m more annoyed when I can dps than when I can’t.
    Last edited by chiddie; 2021-01-15 at 06:11 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    what else do you propose ? even on low keys like +8-10 if you are like 200 itlv while doing them kiting is only option once you are out of def cds because you will get anihilated if people dont dps down stuff in time i can only imagine how awefull it is on like +15.
    That blizzard increases tank survivability. Perhaps by bringing back defensive stats, increasing armor or defensive uptime, or decreasing the damage mobs do to tanks at higher key levels (make their auto attacks and specials do less).

  18. #58
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    Tanks need like 10-20% more flat defense across the board, this kite meta is boring. Dunno why they decided to make the role harder than already lacks people to begin with.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  19. #59
    I've enjoyed them more than BFA, about the same as Legion. Given I've only managed to do up to a +7 so far.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by infinitemeridian View Post
    Tanking has always been the least interesting role. Blizz is incredibly uncreative when it comes to tank "gameplay".
    I don't quite agree with this. I used to find it more fun in MoP-WoD and it BfA.
    Each to their own though I guess.

    I can say though, that it does feel like the one role where Blizzard does not seem sure about what they want them to be or do. It changes every expansion while DPS and healers are just DPS and healers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Garybear View Post
    I've enjoyed them more than BFA, about the same as Legion. Given I've only managed to do up to a +7 so far.
    Yeah, the main problems are not there as much in low keys I guess.

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