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  1. #121
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Ok, lets remove the cap and let you get shit from any content you like? That way everyone can do what content they want to...
    See, wasn't so hard when you stop being blinded by rage and actually fucking try to discuss why or what you want.
    yea that works
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    I'm still waiting for them to address the question: "Why even add so many legendaries?"

    What is even the point of each spec having multiple choices, if we can all agree that in practice there's no choice at all? One legendary will always be better than the rest (if even a bit) and it will always be a go-to. Then they implemented a limit to 1 legendary only. To me it feels even more underwhelming and useless system than conduits for specs you'll never be playing anyway. Because legendary powers were made to be this "epic power" that you must search the Shadowlands for, and then a powerful, ancient craftsman can infuse your item with this great power. In practice, some powers are easier to find than others, some powers can be bought from covenants (literal wtf. I'm here saving your world and you're telling me I first need to complete these stupid tasks 100 times until you find me worthy enough? Such power should never be gated behind reputation). And when you're done getting the most powerful one for your spec, you don't care about the rest. At all. You forget about Runecarver. Soul Ash, and with it Torghast, becomes utterly useless.

    Yes, maybe they are going to increase the legendary limit later. Who cares, I'm not playing in the future, I'm playing now. Instead of cluttering this system with multiple useless choices, they should have made just one legendary for each spec or class and grant it in some epic questline.

    It's really hard to believe there were many people, with long game dev experience, who thought it was a good idea.
    Please refer to Legion. Almost every spec had Boss output but some of the other legendaries had utility which were very valuable. See mage tower. BiS was not constant for almost all specs. Be happy that you don't "need" 4 or 5 legendaries. The other legendaries are almost certain to come into their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  3. #123
    When PVP is a better way to gear than PVE it's time to admit your system is broken.

    PVP: do matches, earn points, buy gear when you get enough currency

    PVE: do dungeons, pray to RNG gods you get a drop, and the drop you want specifically

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Can’t speak for raids, but M+ drop rates really need “something”.

    I don’t know what, I’m not a dev, but in the long run running tons of dungeons without any loot feels lsimply bad. Did 5 atm this week and still nothing.

    I’m having fun nonetheless because I like healing but 90% of my guildmates are complaining and I can’t tell them they are wrong.
    M+ is still more profitable than raiding. M+ rates should actually be nerfed. I don't know how they would do that but M+ is an infinite loot source with a guaranteed loot that exceeds the actual level you completed. Raiding needs to up the loot to 4 per 20 and also have your vault be the difficulty above to even match M+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derzorvadur View Post
    Yeah, aside from the balancing issues this is the biggest for me. I get they want gear to be more meaningful and scarce overall but especially for those trying to do 4 to 10 level 14+ dungeons for the vault, putting that much time/effort into doing those and not seeing a single piece of gear AND not having some sort of fail-safe system in place to at least make it worthwhile is ridiculous.

    Even outside of the extremes for top end mythic raiders, if I and a group of friends all need gear and decide to appropriate levels of m+ we could go dozens of clears without hardly any upgrades because the likelihood of us not even being able to trade loot that isn't as good or barely an upgrade to help out.
    If this is happening then you aren't doing appropriate level of M+. The appropriate level of M+ is the level where you see upgrades. The chance of you not getting an upgrade after 24 runs is close to 0 percent. If you are already full 213 then you won't see any upgrades at all except the vault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Okay, maybe you got lucky in HC, but that isn't the norm at all. Many raiders view PvP gearing as more effective than getting their gear from raids right now, since you get one Conquest piece every two weeks, which you can target exactly as you like. And with sufficient rank you can immediatly upgrade that piece up to mythic.
    Sure, if it's easier for you to run HC, because you are struggling in PvP without outgearing your opponent then your point stands. But to be able to target mythic level item rewards is pretty huge.
    Ontop of that you can get mythic level gear from the great vault each week, based on your rank.

    PvE players don't get much more loot than you. Just look at the amount of complaints right now; often they get one HC piece a week and the loot from the vault.
    So 1 piece per week with a vault item vs 1 piece per 2 weeks and a vault item. You son of a bitch. I'm in. It takes twice as long to PvP but I'm convinced. If you're a raider then PvP is not the optimum path. Here's why.

    At the beginning of the season you have 0 conquest pieces and zero raid pieces. The skill of the player determine which level his PvP and pve gear and there is a high correlation between the two. The better players get higher rankings AND raid harder content. So player skill is irrelevant to the gear they get. A bad player won't be getting H or M raid gear and won't be getting more than about 200 PvP gear.

    For the end result you raid for gear and you PvP for points. You don't buy any gear from PvP until halfway through gearing because you don't want to buy gear that will drop in raids. Considering everything is an upgrade in raiding at beginning only a stupid person would gear up in PvP.

    You guys are welcome and I have just proved that PvP gearing is not the optimum route for gearing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  5. #125
    I only want to remove all the call of duty crap, i don't want that SHIT on my blizzard app.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by djprada View Post
    They had the perfect badge system working in WOTLK. Why change something which was working.....
    Job security. They've created a fake sense of urgency even within Blizzard that every person is needed, and more need to be hired. Pretty common in any industry. Can't fire someone for no work on their desk if they re-invent the wheel every two years.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    M+ is still more profitable than raiding. M+ rates should actually be nerfed. I don't know how they would do that but M+ is an infinite loot source with a guaranteed loot that exceeds the actual level you completed. Raiding needs to up the loot to 4 per 20 and also have your vault be the difficulty above to even match M+.

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    If this is happening then you aren't doing appropriate level of M+. The appropriate level of M+ is the level where you see upgrades. The chance of you not getting an upgrade after 24 runs is close to 0 percent. If you are already full 213 then you won't see any upgrades at all except the vault.

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    So 1 piece per week with a vault item vs 1 piece per 2 weeks and a vault item. You son of a bitch. I'm in. It takes twice as long to PvP but I'm convinced. If you're a raider then PvP is not the optimum path. Here's why.

    At the beginning of the season you have 0 conquest pieces and zero raid pieces. The skill of the player determine which level his PvP and pve gear and there is a high correlation between the two. The better players get higher rankings AND raid harder content. So player skill is irrelevant to the gear they get. A bad player won't be getting H or M raid gear and won't be getting more than about 200 PvP gear.

    For the end result you raid for gear and you PvP for points. You don't buy any gear from PvP until halfway through gearing because you don't want to buy gear that will drop in raids. Considering everything is an upgrade in raiding at beginning only a stupid person would gear up in PvP.

    You guys are welcome and I have just proved that PvP gearing is not the optimum route for gearing.
    What “guaranteed loot”? You mean the 35 anima?

    Thanks for the laugh.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by kaintk View Post
    valor point farming
    titan forged (heh, i know that "elitist" people dont like it but 90% of the gamers who are casual loved it, so stop being jerk about it)
    token on dice
    reforging stat system

    give at least all of this and you will make the dungeon raiding more fun to do

    they seriously should do a boss point system where after x kill you choose any item from this boss freely, it would beat the stupid rng the game is in
    Valor point farming yes. Titan forge fuck no. Not hardcore and I hated tforging it meant I had to do all the bs world quests because loot could forge now I can safely ignore them. But yes we need a badge system.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    M+ is still more profitable than raiding
    In m+ you get ilvl 210, plus ONE 226 per week. If you do halfway decent raiding, you get probably 1-2 ilvl213 items per week, for way WAY easier content. Yeah, sure, after 3 months you don't need to raid any more, but in the first few weeks, the ilvl of heroic/mythic raids is always better than everything from M+, except the 1 vault item per week. Aside from the fact that raid trinkets are just better and even higher ilvl.


    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    If this is happening then you aren't doing appropriate level of M+. The appropriate level of M+ is the level where you see upgrades. The chance of you not getting an upgrade after 24 runs is close to 0 percent. If you are already full 213 then you won't see any upgrades at all except the vault.
    It's 6 weeks into the season. Many high level players have 0% chance of getting upgrades from M+, except for the vault. That's the problem when M+ is capped at a lower ilvl than *heroic* raid...



    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    So 1 piece per week with a vault item vs 1 piece per 2 weeks and a vault item. You son of a bitch. I'm in. It takes twice as long to PvP but I'm convinced. If you're a raider then PvP is not the optimum path. Here's why.

    At the beginning of the season you have 0 conquest pieces and zero raid pieces. The skill of the player determine which level his PvP and pve gear and there is a high correlation between the two. The better players get higher rankings AND raid harder content. So player skill is irrelevant to the gear they get. A bad player won't be getting H or M raid gear and won't be getting more than about 200 PvP gear.

    For the end result you raid for gear and you PvP for points. You don't buy any gear from PvP until halfway through gearing because you don't want to buy gear that will drop in raids. Considering everything is an upgrade in raiding at beginning only a stupid person would gear up in PvP.

    You guys are welcome and I have just proved that PvP gearing is not the optimum route for gearing.
    All I know is that one of my friends who is doing only pvp has EIGHT ilvl 226 items and an average ilvl of 216, and I'm doing no pvp, only m+ and heroic raid, and I'm several ilvls lower. If my friend would be raiding/m+ *just a little bit* in addition to PvP, I'm sure he wouldn't have FIVE ilvl 197/200 items, and would probably be at >220 average item level.

    Please tell me again how bad PvP is for gearing, I'm interested.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    In m+ you get ilvl 210, plus ONE 226 per week. If you do halfway decent raiding, you get probably 1-2 ilvl213 items per week, for way WAY easier content.
    How fast people forgot how much complain was when the raid was launched on how difficult it is, that even normal raid is more difficult than a +10, and a +10 was not so common back then. This is how I remember people complaining. HC? "Fuck impossible, abilities 1shotting raiders".
    And now, sure, after people farmed between 30 and 50 dungeons per week, for the past 4 weeks, HC raid became easy. How convenient.
    Just as easy have become the dungeons, the majority of groups in LFD doing 11-12-13's. It's harder to get a spot as a non-meta class, but quite OK to finish.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    In m+ you get ilvl 210, plus ONE 226 per week. If you do halfway decent raiding, you get probably 1-2 ilvl213 items per week, for way WAY easier content. Yeah, sure, after 3 months you don't need to raid any more, but in the first few weeks, the ilvl of heroic/mythic raids is always better than everything from M+, except the 1 vault item per week. Aside from the fact that raid trinkets are just better and even higher ilvl.



    It's 6 weeks into the season. Many high level players have 0% chance of getting upgrades from M+, except for the vault. That's the problem when M+ is capped at a lower ilvl than *heroic* raid...




    All I know is that one of my friends who is doing only pvp has EIGHT ilvl 226 items and an average ilvl of 216, and I'm doing no pvp, only m+ and heroic raid, and I'm several ilvls lower. If my friend would be raiding/m+ *just a little bit* in addition to PvP, I'm sure he wouldn't have FIVE ilvl 197/200 items, and would probably be at >220 average item level.

    Please tell me again how bad PvP is for gearing, I'm interested.
    In M+ you get infinite drops. Full 210 in a week plus a 226. You don't get 226 in raiding unless you are doing mythic. On average it takes a player 9 weeks to fully gear to 213 in heroic raiding including the vault. In the same time you will have up to 9 pieces of 226 just by doing an easy m+. Proof that M+ is more profitable.

    Thinking a M+ player deserves to have heroic raid gear let alone mythic raid gear at all is laughable. This point about players not needing gear after 6 weeks of mythic + reinforces my point of mythic + being more rewarding than raiding. Thank you.

    Read again. PvP for the points and PvE for the gear. It's a very simple concept that was spelled out for the less educated people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    What “guaranteed loot”? You mean the 35 anima?

    Thanks for the laugh.
    There is this new system where if you complete 1 m+ dungeon you are guaranteed loot that is usually a full tier above the loot available in the dungeon. I welcome new players and I recommend you go to wowhead.com because they are full of guides that are helpful for new players. For starters type in the word "vault" in to the search at the top of the page and you will find info about how to get the guaranteed loot from endgame activities.

    You are welcome, new guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by DeusX View Post
    How fast people forgot how much complain was when the raid was launched on how difficult it is, that even normal raid is more difficult than a +10, and a +10 was not so common back then. This is how I remember people complaining. HC? "Fuck impossible, abilities 1shotting raiders".
    And now, sure, after people farmed between 30 and 50 dungeons per week, for the past 4 weeks, HC raid became easy. How convenient.
    Just as easy have become the dungeons, the majority of groups in LFD doing 11-12-13's. It's harder to get a spot as a non-meta class, but quite OK to finish.
    HC raid was hard in the beginning, but so were +15s. Are you really saying that HC raiding is harder than +15? Please...

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    When PVP is a better way to gear than PVE it's time to admit your system is broken.

    PVP: do matches, earn points, buy gear when you get enough currency

    PVE: do dungeons, pray to RNG gods you get a drop, and the drop you want specifically
    Have a look at one of my past posts in this thread. I have proven that PvP is not the best way to gear if you raid. PvP for points, PvE for gear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by neescher View Post
    HC raid was hard in the beginning, but so were +15s. Are you really saying that HC raiding is harder than +15? Please...
    Well it is. 15s are a joke and you should be rewarded with 210 from the vault. It is a simple fact that there were tears everywhere when the raid was released. The best guild in the world even rage quit in release day. There were no tears for 15s.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    In M+ you get infinite drops. Full 210 in a week plus a 226. You don't get 226 in raiding unless you are doing mythic. On average it takes a player 9 weeks to fully gear to 213 in heroic raiding including the vault.
    9 weeks to fully gear 213 *including* vault? Are you high? You need to gear 14 slots, minus 1 for legendary, minus 9 from vault. Are you really claiming that you only get 4 items from bosses in 9 weeks?

    Sure thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Well it is. 15s are a joke and you should be rewarded with 210 from the vault. It is a simple fact that there were tears everywhere when the raid was released. The best guild in the world even rage quit in release day. There were no tears for 15s.
    15s might or might not be a joke, but HC raid is still objectively easier. I proved that. (by your logic, simply posting on mmo-c comments is "proof", so there you go)

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    The best guild in the world even rage quit in release day. There were no tears for 15s.
    To follow up on that, which guild exactly rage quit HC Nathria??

  15. #135
    I always find Ion's interviews funny because he keeps seeming to miss the point and keeps saying how "the team" is doing X or Y, when X or Y has been shown not to work. Maybe you need a new team that understands an MMORPG and doesn't try to turn it into Diablo, and one that stops trying to follow through with their shit ideas and actually learns what people want.

  16. #136
    Bloodsail Admiral Alkizon's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    When it comes to PvP itemization specifically, they're really happy with how that's playing out.
    This generic "they're really happy" every time causes me involuntary burst of laughter (sometimes nervous), because this phrase, usually to midle or even at the end of expansion, is often reborn into something equivalent of "how wrong we were, but we learn from our mistakes" *facepalm*

    For the record: there is nothing to be happy about it

    And about that:
    Balance remains an ongoing focus
    I mean, yeah, something something, but problem here remains same literally - they ditched base, supplied remaining lumps with totally inappropriate bells and whistles, so now they have no even just a moral right to remember something of this nature until foundation is being restored, otherwise Big Bad "Wolf" will come, well, you know how it works, even if some semblance of equilibrium is achieved, which, however, is unlikely, it will be blown away by another unworthy addition. We already talked about something like this here.

    ps. When I see stuff like (Legendary Effect) or "Covenants/Soulbind/Conduit" or (PvP Talent) in change~balance logs it only makes me even more firm in my position.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-01-21 at 05:05 AM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    In M+ you get infinite drops. Full 210 in a week plus a 226. You don't get 226 in raiding unless you are doing mythic. On average it takes a player 9 weeks to fully gear to 213 in heroic raiding including the vault. In the same time you will have up to 9 pieces of 226 just by doing an easy m+. Proof that M+ is more profitable.

    Thinking a M+ player deserves to have heroic raid gear let alone mythic raid gear at all is laughable. This point about players not needing gear after 6 weeks of mythic + reinforces my point of mythic + being more rewarding than raiding. Thank you.

    Read again. PvP for the points and PvE for the gear. It's a very simple concept that was spelled out for the less educated people.

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    There is this new system where if you complete 1 m+ dungeon you are guaranteed loot that is usually a full tier above the loot available in the dungeon. I welcome new players and I recommend you go to wowhead.com because they are full of guides that are helpful for new players. For starters type in the word "vault" in to the search at the top of the page and you will find info about how to get the guaranteed loot from endgame activities.

    You are welcome, new guy.
    Sorry, I won’t feed the troll. You mistyped consciously to have the answer me and many others gave.

    There’s NO guaranteed loot for completing M+, there is ONE guaranteed piece per week from the Vault. This is a complete different thing. Now, you can be lucky, do 5 M+ and exit them with 5 pieces or you can be unlucky, do 15 of them and exit with zero loot apart from the 35 anima.

    Nice try though, keep up the good work my little friend.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    Does it make sense to you that the best way to play arena without playing pve is to not play the game for several months so the fixed conquest cap goes high enough to buy full conquest gear? Because until then playing pve for gear is the meta.
    Conquest has always had a cap?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moradim View Post
    When PVP is a better way to gear than PVE it's time to admit your system is broken.

    PVP: do matches, earn points, buy gear when you get enough currency

    PVE: do dungeons, pray to RNG gods you get a drop, and the drop you want specifically
    Sounds like PvP gearing from vanilla-WoD.

    And badge gear was catchup trash for alts outside of 1-3 items per raid, which capped below the hardest difficulty.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Conquest has always had a cap?
    Consider the full picture.
    Honor gear used to be better than pve gear outside a few pieces(mostly trinkets). Shadowlands design makes general pve gear vastly better than honour gear because its literally same stats +20 ilvl. This is why full conquest matters now and didnt as much before.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by AtomR View Post
    So with daily questing having no rewards, callings give empty bags of gold, torghast rewards absolutely nothing, anima redirection rewards nothing, command table rewards nothing, queen's conservatory (or whatever other covenants have) rewards nothing and they think the problem is with Dungeons/Raids rewards?
    In Ion's and the other devs minds problems worth dealing with in wow have to do with dungeons/raids and to a lesser extent pvp for high end players, which is why we always circle back to the crap we have now. Except now it's made worse by their constant fiddling with everything because they can pretend to allow "progress" with level and ilvl and just have the world scale most of it away by turning dials behind the scenes.

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