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  1. #681
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Bit late to the party, but as soon as Agnes/Agatha gave the camera a look after the "I don't bite" line, it was all given away, imo. I'm sure I missed a whole bunch of comic-specific nods in the episode, but I caught enough throughout that it was made more and more obvious.

    That intro/outro for her was fantastic, though.

    I also see now how they make Wanda the hero by the end.

    Shame this was only like.... 5? minutes extra.
    My biggest hypothesis right now is that Agatha is essentially a mini-boss. They might be the villain for this story, but they're not working on their own initiative and with just their own resources. They have others they're working with, or for.

    I'll eat my hat if the events of Wandavision aren't intended to essentially kick off Phase 4 with a serious hint at whoever the Big Bad of Phases 4-6 is gonna be. I don't think we've gotten anything concrete there yet, but it's gotta be a Thanos-level villain to fit the bill. We may not even get a direct link here; Agatha may be working for a lieutenant who may be working for the Big Boss, and we may just spend Phase 4 taking out that lieutenant.

    The rest of this was hypothesizing about the future of the MCU beyond Wandavision, so I'll stick it in collapse tags so only people who wanna poke at it have to see it;
    Spoiler: 
    If they've got reveals to go, I'm expecting Mephisto to be that lieutenant (there's been enough hints, and they don't have to be red herrings); I don't expect we'll get more than an injured Agatha apologizing for their failures to a shadowy figure that's clearly Mephisto, though. Beyond that, I've been thinking for a long time that the best followup from Thanos, to differentiate in as many ways as possible, would be to go with Doctor Doom. Latvia could be what he renames Sokovia as he rebuilds it, repurposing Ultron tech into his Doombots. He's not just a Stark-level tech genius, he's ALSO a sorceror on the same scale as Strange. It's a very Earth-centric story, which may be a good refocus in the aftermath of all the cosmic stuff. He's also a really complex villain and not always actually wrong, where Thanos was . . . aggressively simple. In fact, I think that kind of slow build to Doom is the only way they could ever make the character work; I think he's failed in every FF film because they try and force his development way too quickly.

    It's a great way to ensure that Wanda and Strange are front-and-center in everything, since they'll be the only ones who can go toe-to-toe with the guy magically. The tech stuff ensures Banner and the Pyms remain relevant. And Doom works with plans within plans, in a way that would be perfect for a slow build-up. They've got everything in place for Doctor Doom, IMO. And they made a giant purple guy with a fancy glove into a believable villain, so I gotta assume they can handle Doom.


  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    My biggest hypothesis right now is that Agatha is essentially a mini-boss. They might be the villain for this story, but they're not working on their own initiative and with just their own resources. They have others they're working with, or for.
    Well taking what we know Wanda is running the simulation, Agathahas been fiddling with it, and she’s been pushing Wanda, but I don’t feel either of them set it in motion. I’m guessing she butted into it and is steering it her own way.

    Agatha vs Wanda seems a little too direct. Well, vs Sword vs Spectrum vs X. I still feel there’s one party we haven’t seen because Wanda doesn’t seem to clear on how she got into the simulation (hex) and Agnes just kinda showed up if you take her intro literally. Sparky was a creation of Wanda. Agatha may be trying to keep what Wanda is doing from crossing some line.

    Also, how great would it be if that really IS X-men Quicksilver that Agatha dragged over from another universe and not some magical doppelgänger.

  3. #683
    I think in all the theories about Agatha and Mephisto (or all the other possible villains) people (myself included) kind of forgot how big a role Hayward is playing.
    I read a few comments from people that were pissed at Wanda for being so hateful towards Monica, but from what we now know, Wanda walked into SWORD and found them turning Vision into Ultron. Next thing she knows is that a SWORD agent walks into her bubble, breaks her out of her happy world by talking about her dead brother and.... Ultron. Next up that same agent is trying to shoot her with a Stark Industries drone, SWORD send in a fake brother (that is what Wanda suspects, she accuses Monica of that) and then that same agent walks right into her house and starts talking about Hayward and Ultron again. I mean, considering that it's kind of nice of Wanda to only freak out at Monica after she mentions Hayward. Before that she is a little annoyed at best.
    And here's the thing: Hayward knew exactly what he was sending Monica into. He was tracking Vision and knew he was with Wanda. But he still pretended that it was just some FBI case Monica was supposed to help out with. I think it is, because he knows about the SWORD splinter group that we saw in ep 7, who said they were loyal to Monica's mother (and someone else) and knows Monica is going to be opposing him too, once she finds out what exactly he is doing. He is trying to get Monica killed by Wanda, so he can point to that and take complete control, making everyone who opposed him a villain, not only Wanda.

    On some level it kind of seems that Hayward's and Agatha's goals align so well, that they could even be working together. Agatha is using Wanda as a scapegoat and has constantly been trying to isolate her from Vision (from the moment the kids were there) by either making Wanda unsure about Vision's feelings for her or making Vision suspicious of Wanda. And she can only do that as effectively as she does, because he doesn't remember anything prior to the hex. And that is probably due to stuff that SWORD did. Once Wanda kills Monica, nothing could save her and if she finds out she was tricked, she'd be even more guilt ridden and insane, she'd have no help at all anymore and Agatha would remain as her only "friend" against the other superheroes, SWORD and her own self-hate (which is already shown very explicitly during ep 7). That's gaslighting on a whole new level. ^^

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    On some level it kind of seems that Hayward's and Agatha's goals align so well, that they could even be working together. Agatha is using Wanda as a scapegoat and has constantly been trying to isolate her from Vision (from the moment the kids were there) by either making Wanda unsure about Vision's feelings for her or making Vision suspicious of Wanda. And she can only do that as effectively as she does, because he doesn't remember anything prior to the hex. And that is probably due to stuff that SWORD did. Once Wanda kills Monica, nothing could save her and if she finds out she was tricked, she'd be even more guilt ridden and insane, she'd have no help at all anymore and Agatha would remain as her only "friend" against the other superheroes, SWORD and her own self-hate (which is already shown very explicitly during ep 7). That's gaslighting on a whole new level. ^^
    Vision has no memories of before because the mind stone was taken from him. It was his brain so to speak. He only knows what Wanda wanted him to know from the start of the series. If he remembered everything from before he would have opposed her from the beginning so she only gave him enough memories to ensure he still had feelings for her. At least that is what it appears to be.

  5. #685
    So where's the beekeeper? Not a single reference to him since his disappearance. Wanda launched Monica from the area in a relatively "safe" manner, which makes me think she wasn't the one to get rid of him.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Krunxx View Post
    Vision has no memories of before because the mind stone was taken from him. It was his brain so to speak. He only knows what Wanda wanted him to know from the start of the series. If he remembered everything from before he would have opposed her from the beginning so she only gave him enough memories to ensure he still had feelings for her. At least that is what it appears to be.
    I don't think it's purely because of the missing mindstone that he has no memories. He should at least have what Jarvis knew and maybe even some Ultron ...err.. subroutines or something. SWORD had him for several years it seems and they dismantled him thoroughly and were already trying to bring him back online, which I'd say means they also had some kind of 'mind' implemented (like their own version of Ultron maybe), but it didn't work, as Jimmy and Monica say, until Wanda stole him. So it may even be that Wanda had to delete the new weapon-AI they gave him and then awakened him with a bit of her own mindstone-power and some of her memory of what he was like. If even that. Maybe someone else "awakened" him with her power, so Wanda would have a reason to maintain the sharade.
    The first two episodes neither Wanda nor Vision actually have any memories of what happened before they arrived. They develop some kind of independent thought and the power to manipulate the Hex/the mindcontrol (Wanda the Hex, Vision the mindcontrol) at roughly the same time. First time something like that happens is in the first episode at dinner, where both of them realize something is wrong when Visions boss is choking and both are hesitant to do something about it, until they decide their 'agreed upon' secrecy is less important than the man's life. I think that was a test by whoever created the Hex. And I don't think that was Wanda. I think Wanda walked into a trap and then let herself get carried away, because it meant a 'way out' of her desperation. Or, my other theory about it, the Hex is a wormhole created by some kind of being when reality became unstable after Thanos destroyed the stones, Wanda walked in and first tried to contain it... and then basically was trapped (again because it was her way out).
    Both from the outside and from the inside there's forces trying to make Wanda a murderer in her weakened state of mind. It's almost a classical scheme the devil would pull to bring down an originally innocent soul. Or how a Sith would bring a Jedi to the Dark Side

  7. #687
    Agatha is definitely working for someone, probably Nightmare. I think the rabbit is her husband Ralph(Mephisto?) The 2 creatures on tv are her kids.

  8. #688
    Oh, I just thought of something... what if Wanda isn't just one Wanda, but several? Like, if that Hex is actually a kind of wormhole to different timelines/realities and she remains a Nexus being like in the comics (with the latest ad I thought it might be possible) maybe someone (Nightmare, Mephisto, Chthon, whoever) trapped her there and not only the Wanda from the MCU main timeline, but also others. One of them would be her former self from the time during Age of Ultron, which is why she has her accent back sometimes (specifically when talking about that time and Pietro and when throwing a Stark Industries drone at Hayward's feet).

    Also, I think Evan Peters Quicksilver might have been sent by the TVA to investigate. He might just have been recruited by them. They could introduce Fox-Quicksilver that way and still later on create their own X-men. Part of me thinks he might be Loki in disguise, but then it kind of makes no sense that he would choose that specific disguise and also I don't think they'd use Evan Peters just to show him turn into Loki for a second at the end.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    So where's the beekeeper? Not a single reference to him since his disappearance. Wanda launched Monica from the area in a relatively "safe" manner, which makes me think she wasn't the one to get rid of him.
    Why assume anything happened to him? He was probably just integrated into the hex like everyone else in town. Rambeau was only ejected because she was breaking the illusion for Wanda. Some random agent she doesn't even interact with probably isn't causing trouble.

  10. #690
    The Lightbringer ProphetFlume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Why assume anything happened to him? He was probably just integrated into the hex like everyone else in town. Rambeau was only ejected because she was breaking the illusion for Wanda. Some random agent she doesn't even interact with probably isn't causing trouble.
    We didn’t see his manner change and walk away or get sent back or show up again, he just disappeared when she said “no” without a cutaway in the coverage like when she booted Monica.

    “No More Beekeepers” inc
    Last edited by ProphetFlume; 2021-02-23 at 11:10 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    I'm not sure if you guys have noticed but sometimes I say things that are kind of dumb
    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    I just like reading about the "vigorous rubbing" that might affect ball inflation.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Why assume anything happened to him?
    Because that would be only thing that can make the situation actually bad. So far Wanda has stolen something that probably doesn't have a legal existence, and pupetted people for a sitcom where nothing actually bad happened to them. That's barely a hostage situation for all SWORD/FBI know.

    If anything happened to this guy, it could give legitimate reasons for the SWORD to attack with full force. They've already attacked once (with the drone) but apparently without being backed by anyone (FBI wasn't aware apparently).
    It would also help Wanda realizes she's out of control, if she harmed anyone, which she didn't yet.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by ProphetFlume View Post
    We didn’t see his manner change and walk away or get sent back or show up again, he just disappeared when she said “no” without a cutaway in the coverage like when she booted Monica.

    “No More Beekeepers” inc
    The entire show rewinds when she says no...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Because that would be only thing that can make the situation actually bad. So far Wanda has stolen something that probably doesn't have a legal existence, and pupetted people for a sitcom where nothing actually bad happened to them. That's barely a hostage situation for all SWORD/FBI know.

    If anything happened to this guy, it could give legitimate reasons for the SWORD to attack with full force. They've already attacked once (with the drone) but apparently without being backed by anyone (FBI wasn't aware apparently).
    It would also help Wanda realizes she's out of control, if she harmed anyone, which she didn't yet.
    Not sure if you’ve been paying attention, but the people in the hex are being tortured and held hostage. It’s already a pretty bad situation.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Not sure if you’ve been paying attention, but the people in the hex are being tortured and held hostage. It’s already a pretty bad situation.
    Sure that is, never denied it was. But it's currently "not bad enough to kill an Avenger". There has been no durable casualty so far, no one died, no one was physically harmed. If someone dies from Wanda's hands, that could become really problematic, hence why I feel that this "no name guy" could be a major plot point of the next episodes.

    I mean, if that whole shit was that bad, Strange or any other Avenger would have intervened by now - even though that's probably a false argument as we can say that for nearly every solo-movie ever.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Sure that is, never denied it was. But it's currently "not bad enough to kill an Avenger". There has been no durable casualty so far, no one died, no one was physically harmed. If someone dies from Wanda's hands, that could become really problematic, hence why I feel that this "no name guy" could be a major plot point of the next episodes.

    I mean, if that whole shit was that bad, Strange or any other Avenger would have intervened by now - even though that's probably a false argument as we can say that for nearly every solo-movie ever.
    We have an Avenger intervening. Her name is Monica.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by FlaxClap View Post
    Agatha is definitely working for someone, probably Nightmare. I think the rabbit is her husband Ralph(Mephisto?) The 2 creatures on tv are her kids.
    Lol that's Yo Gabba Gabba - not some show made up for wanda vision :P although color wise it'd work... one is a girl though

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    I don't think it's purely because of the missing mindstone that he has no memories. He should at least have what Jarvis knew and maybe even some Ultron ...err.. subroutines or something. SWORD had him for several years it seems and they dismantled him thoroughly and were already trying to bring him back online, which I'd say means they also had some kind of 'mind' implemented (like their own version of Ultron maybe), but it didn't work, as Jimmy and Monica say, until Wanda stole him. So it may even be that Wanda had to delete the new weapon-AI they gave him and then awakened him with a bit of her own mindstone-power and some of her memory of what he was like. If even that. Maybe someone else "awakened" him with her power, so Wanda would have a reason to maintain the sharade.
    The first two episodes neither Wanda nor Vision actually have any memories of what happened before they arrived. They develop some kind of independent thought and the power to manipulate the Hex/the mindcontrol (Wanda the Hex, Vision the mindcontrol) at roughly the same time. First time something like that happens is in the first episode at dinner, where both of them realize something is wrong when Visions boss is choking and both are hesitant to do something about it, until they decide their 'agreed upon' secrecy is less important than the man's life. I think that was a test by whoever created the Hex. And I don't think that was Wanda. I think Wanda walked into a trap and then let herself get carried away, because it meant a 'way out' of her desperation. Or, my other theory about it, the Hex is a wormhole created by some kind of being when reality became unstable after Thanos destroyed the stones, Wanda walked in and first tried to contain it... and then basically was trapped (again because it was her way out).
    Both from the outside and from the inside there's forces trying to make Wanda a murderer in her weakened state of mind. It's almost a classical scheme the devil would pull to bring down an originally innocent soul. Or how a Sith would bring a Jedi to the Dark Side
    It has been shown that Wanda is quite aware of everything that has happened. Or else Monica mentioning Ultron wouldn't have set her off like that. Wanda is just choosing to pretend nothing is wrong. Same thing in the first episode when Mr. Hart insisted on knowing where the came from. She made him choke then had Vision save him.

    In Infinity War Bruce Banner flat out stated that the mind stone is what made Vision "Vision", with bits of Jarvis/Banner/Tony traits mixed in. That is why they had Shuri working so hard to try and reroute all the connections so they could safely remove the stone so they could preserve his "awareness". At this point it doesn't matter too much though. He is getting the information he needs 2nd hand from Darcy to understand Wanda's state of mind.

  17. #697
    The Lightbringer ProphetFlume's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    We have an Avenger intervening. Her name is Monica.
    By that logic Coulson was an Avenger.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    I'm not sure if you guys have noticed but sometimes I say things that are kind of dumb
    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    I just like reading about the "vigorous rubbing" that might affect ball inflation.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by ProphetFlume View Post
    By that logic Coulson was an Avenger.
    Agents of SHIELD season 1 spoiler alert: Fury calls him exactly that at the end of the last episode of season 1.

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by ProphetFlume View Post
    By that logic Coulson was an Avenger.
    Not really. Did you miss the part where Monica has her Photon powers now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Agents of SHIELD season 1 spoiler alert: Fury calls him exactly that at the end of the last episode of season 1.
    Also this.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Krunxx View Post
    It has been shown that Wanda is quite aware of everything that has happened. Or else Monica mentioning Ultron wouldn't have set her off like that. Wanda is just choosing to pretend nothing is wrong. Same thing in the first episode when Mr. Hart insisted on knowing where the came from. She made him choke then had Vision save him.

    In Infinity War Bruce Banner flat out stated that the mind stone is what made Vision "Vision", with bits of Jarvis/Banner/Tony traits mixed in. That is why they had Shuri working so hard to try and reroute all the connections so they could safely remove the stone so they could preserve his "awareness". At this point it doesn't matter too much though. He is getting the information he needs 2nd hand from Darcy to understand Wanda's state of mind.
    My interpretation was that Wanda became aware of her past, when she remembered Pietro while looking at the twins. Monica becomes aware of the 'real world' and the past at the same moment and thus mentions Ultron. Wanda is shocked to see her own powers manifesting after she blasts Monica out, because that is the first time her magic actually looks like her own and not like some sitcom magic special effect.

    And the thing about Vision being who he is without the mindstone is exactly what I mean. He should not have 'no memories', but without the mindstone he may well be a lot more like Ultron, which was Ultron's plan. Vision was supposed to be Ultron's 'final form' and then got more Jarvis (iirc) and the mindstone, which made him Vision instead. And once he gets his lesson in his personal history he even chooses to return to Wanda and help her, which is why I don't think he would have opposed Wanda more if he had his memories before that, quite the contrary. His memory loss was what enabled Agatha to gaslight him (by glitching out Herb and telling Vision her sob-story at the edge of town) into opposing Wanda and trying to escape the Hex.

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