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  1. #501
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Tying Magneto's origin to a real-world event like the Holocaust meant we weren't rationalizing about a fictional thing. It was very, very real. His experience wasn't a fantasy; it was lived history. That allowed his response to evoke a lot of emotions that wouldn't be felt as rawly, as deeply if it were a fictional event.
    Right. But that aspect of his character isn't really dependent on the holocaust. It just needs a sufficiently equal event to shape his views in a similar fashion. Since it is all fiction it doesn't matter if it is lived history or not. Because his version isn't lived history no matter how much it relies on the events. Your Luke Cage comparison is just flat out dumb. Equating a different genocide-level event to being left handed is a set up for failure before you even finished typing that sentence.

    It's not like Marvel hasn't done changes before including gender, race, and stuff. But changing the race of a minority representation is a little bit different of a beast then an origin. And Marvel has already done a line of comics with him having an origin that is a descendant of holocaust survivors rather then a direct participant. And its not like Wanda's story hasn't changed several times including at one time being a child of Magneto.
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  2. #502
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right. But that aspect of his character isn't really dependent on the holocaust. It just needs a sufficiently equal event to shape his views in a similar fashion. Since it is all fiction it doesn't matter if it is lived history or not. Because his version isn't lived history no matter how much it relies on the events. Your Luke Cage comparison is just flat out dumb. Equating a different genocide-level event to being left handed is a set up for failure before you even finished typing that sentence.
    And any fictional genocide-level event is gonna seem just as dumb. That was my point.

    You either make light of a real genocide, or you target a group that hasn't been so targeted and it feels ridiculous.


  3. #503
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And any fictional genocide-level event is gonna seem just as dumb. That was my point.
    But why is real world genocide the only non-dumb way to write a character? Your point is silly and is still no way comparable to something like being left handed. Marvel, as I pointed out, has even already change his backstory to not include directly being a survivor of the holocaust. From the summary I saw online it didn't change that much about the over all character.

    A fictional genocide doesn't automatically make light of a real genocide. You are aware that the holocaust Magneto survived is already a fictional genocide that mirrors a real life one. And you don't think his backstory makes light of the holocaust do you?

    Edit: I just googled it a little and it looks like him being a holocaust survivor wasn't even revealed until Uncanny #150 and wasn't core to his identity at the start. Which was almost 20 years after his first appearance in the comics. So any genocide level event could really occupy his backstory as long as it is used to shape his view on civil rights or any future revelation of "oh my god I've become what I hated" as in the before mentioned issue #150. https://www.cbr.com/x-men-magneto-holocaust-survivor/2/
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-02-19 at 03:46 AM.
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  4. #504
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    His point is that because the holocaust was an event based in reality, the readers could be more emotionally invested due to their real life experiences (studying it, knowing relatives that survived it, etc) when they read how the character was shaped or motivated by those real life events. Any fictional tragedy simply does not hold the same weight to the reader I don't think this point is very subjective or confusable is it?
    I get the point but as my edit shows it isn't that central to his character. It was more used to show how he came to his out look in life and to offer a way to give that "I've become that which I hate" story hooks. Any type of genocide event can still connect with people that lived through it. A lot of fantasy still resonates with people in the same way you are referring to his point even though it isn't an actual real world event.

    100% fictional events can still hold just as much weight to a reader based on the feelings and emotions it confers. The Magneto character, from the comics at least, also doesn't rely on the Holocaust to add that weight to his character.
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  5. #505
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But why is real world genocide the only non-dumb way to write a character?
    It's not, but it's the canon for the character now.

    So if you write the Holocaust out of his backstory, that seems like a glossing-over of history.
    If you replace it with a fictional event, it loses heft.
    If you don't, you end up implicitly comparing some more-recent issue with the Holocaust in terms of impact, which is fraught with risk.

    If you made a brand-new character, that wouldn't be a factor. The issue is trying to rewrite this character, and maintain the same weight behind him.

    Edit: I just googled it a little and it looks like him being a holocaust survivor wasn't even revealed until Uncanny #150 and wasn't core to his identity at the start. Which was almost 20 years after his first appearance in the comics. So any genocide level event could really occupy his backstory as long as it is used to shape his view on civil rights or any future revelation of "oh my god I've become what I hated" as in the before mentioned issue #150. https://www.cbr.com/x-men-magneto-holocaust-survivor/2/
    He also wasn't a sympathetic villain before that backstory was revealed. That backstory was the key that gave his motives a sense of being reasonably driven by trauma and righteous anger. Without it, he's just Angry Magnet Man.


  6. #506
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's not, but it's the canon for the character now.
    It isn't canon for all incarnations though. It doesn't lose any heft if you replace it with a similar, yet fictional, event. You don't risk comparing anything to the holocaust because his backstory isn't regarding specific events of the holocaust but simply living through it and having that shape his views. And you don't gloss over history if you change his back story to something different. That is just dumb because the comics have already re-written stuff dozens if not hundreds of times.

    Did you overlook how Wanda was once the daughter of Magneto and that history and connection to the holocaust was "erased". Did the weight of her backstory change when? Not really.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #507
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't canon for all incarnations though. It doesn't lose any heft if you replace it with a similar, yet fictional, event. You don't risk comparing anything to the holocaust because his backstory isn't regarding specific events of the holocaust but simply living through it and having that shape his views. And you don't gloss over history if you change his back story to something different. That is just dumb because the comics have already re-written stuff dozens if not hundreds of times.

    Did you overlook how Wanda was once the daughter of Magneto and that history and connection to the holocaust was "erased". Did the weight of her backstory change when? Not really.
    It seriously feels like you're expecting me to explain the emotional impact and meaning of the Holocaust as a unique horror in human history.

    I'm struggling to figure out if you really don't get what the point is, or if you're just baiting me by pretending otherwise.

    The point wasn't about the canon of having a backstory. It was the metaphorical weight of that specific backstory, tied in with real history, and everything that that history meant to those who died within or survived it.


  8. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It seriously feels like you're expecting me to explain the emotional impact and meaning of the Holocaust as a unique horror in human history.
    Seriously? Now I am getting labeled as some type of Holocaust denier simply because I have a different view on how a fictional character's backstory can be re-written? Marvel themselves have already re-written that specific backstory. So any argument of weight is moot when the very creators of the character have already done it. Is it not? The also re-wrote that attachment with Wanda both in the comics and the MCU.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #509
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Seriously? Now I am getting labeled as some type of Holocaust denier simply because I have a different view on how a fictional character's backstory can be re-written? Marvel themselves have already re-written that specific backstory. So any argument of weight is moot when the very creators of the character have already done it. Is it not? The also re-wrote that attachment with Wanda both in the comics and the MCU.
    There was no suggestion you were denying the Holocaust. Just that you seem to not grasp the emotional weight and impact. That it's just empty history to you.


  10. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There was no suggestion you were denying the Holocaust. Just that you seem to not grasp the emotional weight and impact. That it's just empty history to you.
    Oh there was certainly a suggestion that I am denying the full weight and gravity of the Holocaust and what it means to actually survivors of it. No need to lack a backbone after using such a ridiculous line to win an argument on the internet. The fact still remains that Magneto is fictional and the creators have already deemed that the backstory that includes a relation to the Holocaust can be re-written. Both for Magneto and for the absent bad father of Wanda and her brother.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #511
    Well, the reveal about the “engineer” certainly was...something.
    "Auto-correct is my worst enema."

  12. #512
    Dreadlord Phaelia's Avatar
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    It was Agatha all along~
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  13. #513
    Make sure to stay tuned for the mid-credits scene.
    "Auto-correct is my worst enema."

  14. #514
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    I'm glad Monica actually got her powers and isn't just an unpowered character with the same name as her 616 counterpart.


    Also glad I decided to watch this one ASAP because spoilers are all over everything.

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  15. #515
    Bloodsail Admiral aarro's Avatar
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    Episode 7 was a big let down for me. I know near the end was meant to be a reveal but we knew that all along...
    An Karanir Thanagor

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by aarro View Post
    Episode 7 was a big let down for me. I know near the end was meant to be a reveal but we knew that all along...
    I don't get why people get disappointed by these dramatic reveals when you can easily figure it out if you read or are familiar with the comics. It is more for the characters involved in the story, like the Bucky = Winter Solider twist. Bucky has been the Winter Solider for some time in the comics before the film was even announced plus the casting of Sebastian Stan as the secondary titular character was not meant to be subtle. I mean Agatha basically winks directly into the camera during the 'Agatha is behind everything' song. The creators knew that fans will figure it out beforehand.

  17. #517
    Bloodsail Admiral aarro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volardelis View Post
    I don't get why people get disappointed by these dramatic reveals when you can easily figure it out if you read or are familiar with the comics. It is more for the characters involved in the story, like the Bucky = Winter Solider twist. Bucky has been the Winter Solider for some time in the comics before the film was even announced plus the casting of Sebastian Stan as the secondary titular character was not meant to be subtle. I mean Agatha basically winks directly into the camera during the 'Agatha is behind everything' song. The creators knew that fans will figure it out beforehand.
    I am purely a huge MCU fan and I have never read a Marvel comic in my life but still managed to figure it out. I'm just waiting for that wow/surprised moment which is meant to happen that I may have over hyped the show, lol. Roll on episode 8 though.
    An Karanir Thanagor

  18. #518
    Titan Frozenbeef's Avatar
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    Soo...Agnus....

    There's a short mid credit scene on episode 7 BTW.
    Last edited by Frozenbeef; 2021-02-19 at 10:47 AM.

  19. #519
    People are probably going to be upset that it ended up being as obvious as it looked. We "knew" weeks ago that she was either involved or a red herring. But at least people got to have fun with their theories in the mean time.

    But this does put last week's commercial into context: She was the shark sucking the life out of Wanda...presumably.
    Last edited by s_bushido; 2021-02-19 at 10:51 AM.

  20. #520
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    I don't mind when stories don't have gigantic twists - it's often corny and cliche. A surprise is not a surprise when you know it's coming.

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