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  1. #21
    I do some m+ once in a while, not very high key highest i have done is a 9++. But sometime when i try to sign up for a key i get whisper ''MM?'' and i respond ''No i play BM'' i get instan declined or when they see that i play BM i get removed from the group. I know that i can fix this problem by myself by changed to MM but i dont like to play that spec at all. In my opinion is a bit overkill that i get removed/declined for a low key just cus i dont play the best spec for my class.

    Would be more understandable it if was for a much higher key.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by stoffe View Post
    I do some m+ once in a while, not very high key highest i have done is a 9++. But sometime when i try to sign up for a key i get whisper ''MM?'' and i respond ''No i play BM'' i get instan declined or when they see that i play BM i get removed from the group. I know that i can fix this problem by myself by changed to MM but i dont like to play that spec at all. In my opinion is a bit overkill that i get removed/declined for a low key just cus i dont play the best spec for my class.

    Would be more understandable it if was for a much higher key.
    I prefer to play BM myself, but on the other hand I fully respect that the person who organizes the key can invite whomever he wants, and if he prefers a MM to a BM hunter then it is his right.
    So my solution to my "problem", because it is I who has a problem, not the community, is to either play MM when I play with strangers, make my own group or play with friends.

  3. #23
    Bring the player not the class is dead because it's more like "bring the player, and the class". The popularity of RIO massively sways people towards inviting players with more experience, you will usually invite the player over the class if there is a large disparity in experience (aka rio score/keys timed) but if you have the choice of two similarly experienced players you will choose the best class.

    It'd be alive and well in situations where you're strapped for choice, but there are no shortage of dps players out there. As well as that, meta specs have more chance of building that experience because they get invited to more keys, that compounds the issue. But really the problem is the godawful tuning and the fact they are doing nothing at all about it.

    The problem wouldn't exist if a select bunch of specs didn't have both the best utility and best damage by a considerable measure while the rest wallow in mediocrity.
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Curious on people's thoughts here.

    Shadowlands M+ really encourages the use of classes tool kit. Legion was just an AoE fest with the bosses being a bit more interesting. BFA interrupts on Trash became far more important but I felt that a Tank could handle most disruption on their own.

    With so many mobs now immune to CC, and mobs that can truck tanks I'm loving how M+ feels like a far more collobarative effort. I'm getting a bit of fast paced TBC feeling from it as tank due to the dangerous damage of trash packs, CC needed and the need to generate threat.

    When I'm seeking out players for my keys it's not just about who has the highest Raider.io and/or ilvl but also what utility they will bring.

    Of course you need Bloodlust and a Battle Rez but then you may need to consider skips, depending on the dungeon Rogue shroud, DH imprision, Priest Mind Soothe, etc. Dispell enrage effects. Mob repositioning, Death Grip, Ring of Piece, Knockbacks.

    I'm loving it Dungeons feel like a puzzle to be cracked as a collective with the tools you have available. I felt that in BFA a tank could hard carry as long as DPS pulled their numbers, but now it's cleary everyones job.

    Problem often though is you feeled kneecaped when playing with certain classes depending on your comp. I personally cringe hard when I see a DPS Warrior (unless I need a Venthyr for HoA), made worse by the fact that I tank on a Warrior myself. A DPS Warriors utility pales in comparision to a Hunter (the Batman of M+). Retribution Paladins don't feel much better, Havoc DH can be a bit underwhelming also. Then stacking certain classes just feels bad, for example I don't mind having a Shadow Priest in my group, but less inclined towards one if I already have a Priest Healing.

    If Blizz is going to insist on removing 25% Drums, and scrolls, they should spread out the utility a bit. Let DPS Warriors spec into Bloodlust in exchange for Defensive Stance perhaps. Combat ress for an additional class aswell. Also some Dungeons just feel silly w/o the right convenant. Don't really care if we don't have a Necrolord for ToP, still not sure WTF they do in Plaguefall. Where as you really want a Venthyr for HoA and Kyrian for Spires.
    I want to be honest... I always bring a Hunter and a Mage to my M+ group. I hate to be a "meta slave" but in my opinion the current M+ system is: dps >>>> CC.

    And from my experience even a very mediocre player can do big damage on a MM hunter or Fire mage. So instead of focusing on mechanics you can just blast down the packs with massive AOE. But you really need Mages and Hunters to do that. Boomkin is also okay of course. Melee classes are just a no go for M+ right.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Accurate, but also not entirely accurate. A top tier, lets say Fury Warrior, won't even be able to compete with a mediocre Fire Mage or Windwalker in M+. There's too many specs that have very little useful utility, like Warrior, and there others who have way too much like Rogue.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Literally the only thing Warriors bring to the table is an AoE snare, which is pretty useless overall.
    Now that's an exaggeration. Fury's damage is quite good in M+ and I've handily beaten Fire mages, MM hunters and WWs with higher IO and ilvl than me. In really high keys you don't get to use that damage as much as other classes perhaps due to the ever-present need to weave in and out of danger which is particularly damaging to Fury's DPS, but lack of damage isn't our problem, it's lack of utility as you said. WW brings Ring of Balance and Paralysis, two extremely valuable utilities, especially in Fortified or kite-heavy weeks.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by LazuOG View Post
    It is definitely a design issue when some classes utility and damage FAR outshine other options. There is no dps combination that even comes close to what MM/Fire/Boomy/WW/Outlaw can do. This is obvious on paper and in reality. Combine that with a DH tank and a healer that can afford to go venthyr (shaman/disc mostly) and there is no reason to ever change this constellation. Warriors bring shit nothing in comparison to what WW and Outlaw bring. It's 100% blizzards fault for making the meta so obvious, public perception is based on that.

    To the ppl arguing the " if ppl only look at the top 5% of players ofc the community will never invite xyz etc" line, get a grip. There is a valid and obvious reason for the meta, and it's not the players fault, it's blizzards. It has nothing to do with player skill, you simply can't play around a massive lack of utility no matter how skilled you are. You can't emulate the sheer explosions of alternating aoe burst dps for packs that mm and fire bring.

    These dungeons require insane burst for certain packs, a myriad of interrupts, a soothe, a decurse, purges, immunities, tank externals (treants lol), misdirects, aoe ccs, battle rezzes, skip options and much more. Guess what, all of these things are brought by MM/Fire/Boomy/WW/ Outlaw. They also bring above average to absolute top tier dps. No reason to ever bring anything else to challenging m+ content.
    Well said. My question though is would you guys prefer the dungeons to be less stringent in requirements, thus once again making DPS and a few AoE stuns the forefront or should some classes have another look? I think Blizzard should add an additional column to each talent tree, as the original format didn't have M+ in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Now that's an exaggeration. Fury's damage is quite good in M+ and I've handily beaten Fire mages, MM hunters and WWs with higher IO and ilvl than me. In really high keys you don't get to use that damage as much as other classes perhaps due to the ever-present need to weave in and out of danger which is particularly damaging to Fury's DPS, but lack of damage isn't our problem, it's lack of utility as you said. WW brings Ring of Balance and Paralysis, two extremely valuable utilities, especially in Fortified or kite-heavy weeks.
    Buddy I avoid DPS Warriors like the plague, all while constantly harping on my friend who is a DPS Warrior about his lack of utility. They just don't freaking do anything. In comparison to other classes. I deny Warriors with high IOs all the time unless they're some sort of package deal with another high io friend or I'm doing HoA and need a Venthyr. Warriors should be able to spec into Bloodlust, I think the problem will be solved right there. Then give Combat ress to Ret Paladins and Havoc DH. Sure Hunters/Boomy/Mage will still be prefered but at this point I'll worry more about the caliber of player as opposed to trying to find combat ress and lust.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Warriors should be able to spec into Bloodlust
    Or *drumroll* just get drums back to 25%... /shrug

    It's ok, does not seem like mages/hunters/shamans are in any danger of not being taken to M+ as is.

  8. #28
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Or *drumroll* just get drums back to 25%... /shrug

    It's ok, does not seem like mages/hunters/shamans are in any danger of not being taken to M+ as is.
    Honestly, this. All three have heavy representation in m+ right now and it's not exclusively because of lust.

    [and I say this as a shaman main]

    And the general philosophy of giving unique shit to a specific class so people will take them to groups is stupid to begin with. Design choices like that fuck groups that don't have whatever it is, and forces groups that do to maybe take a class (or person) they otherwise wouldn't really want just for that one thing. It is entirely possible to give classes a unique identity, feel, and gameplay without doing so, just as it is possible to give out some near-mandatory abilities more widely without those classes feeling homogenised.

    Buff scrolls should come back, drums should be competitive, and there should be more duplication of shit like the DH and Monk buffs IMO.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Honestly, this. All three have heavy representation in m+ right now and it's not exclusively because of lust.

    [and I say this as a shaman main]

    And the general philosophy of giving unique shit to a specific class so people will take them to groups is stupid to begin with. Design choices like that fuck groups that don't have whatever it is, and forces groups that do to maybe take a class (or person) they otherwise wouldn't really want just for that one thing. It is entirely possible to give classes a unique identity, feel, and gameplay without doing so, just as it is possible to give out some near-mandatory abilities more widely without those classes feeling homogenised.

    Buff scrolls should come back, drums should be competitive, and there should be more duplication of shit like the DH and Monk buffs IMO.
    Indeed. I'll take it a step further and say that every healer should have a brez, maybe with a longer cast time than a Lock's so that that class keeps a bit of relative value DK brez would retain its comparative value via instant cast on top of the class already having useful utility like AMS, AMZ and grips. Additionally, I'd axe the monk/DH debuffs entirely (and tune content to compensate obviously) and give them AP/int bonuses instead respectively, and make every buff castable by at least 2 classes. If Blizzard insists in keeping drums half useless, then give Lust equivalents to 1-2 more classes as well, including a tank one such as Paladins.

    And then give classes lacking utility, such as Warrior and Priest, some back and buff what they have. Using Warriors as an example, make Intidimating Shout not cause enemies to run away so merely using it isn't at risk of causing an instant wipe, give Storm Bolt baseline, and allow us to talent into Shockwave again.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Now that's an exaggeration. Fury's damage is quite good in M+ and I've handily beaten Fire mages, MM hunters and WWs with higher IO and ilvl than me. In really high keys you don't get to use that damage as much as other classes perhaps due to the ever-present need to weave in and out of danger which is particularly damaging to Fury's DPS, but lack of damage isn't our problem, it's lack of utility as you said. WW brings Ring of Balance and Paralysis, two extremely valuable utilities, especially in Fortified or kite-heavy weeks.
    It's not an exaggeration, the visible data shows that Fury is garbage in every kind of encounter. If you're beating MM Hunters and WWs that's just you playing with horrible players, they aren't even mediocre if a Fury Warrior is beating them. Fire needs the ramp up, so they're not expected to be phenomenal in lower keys where mobs are dying much faster. But Fury can't compete with decent MM or WW players.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    It's not an exaggeration, the visible data shows that Fury is garbage in every kind of encounter. If you're beating MM Hunters and WWs that's just you playing with horrible players, they aren't even mediocre if a Fury Warrior is beating them. Fire needs the ramp up, so they're not expected to be phenomenal in lower keys where mobs are dying much faster. But Fury can't compete with decent MM or WW players.
    And what data point would that be? Looking at overall dungeon logs on WClogs (such as they are as a metric, granted) at the 90th percentile of +15 keys puts Fury on the top end of damage, and unlike Mut rogues who have a very small number of parses there are enough Furys to make the data somewhat accurate. I'd be curious to see what data point refutes this to make them "garbage in ever kind of encounter".

    In another order of idea, Sun King is the only encounter in CN to feature large amounts of AoE- and not without coincidence, it's also the only encounter where Fury is fairly competitive even if nowhere near as OP as boomies. Because Fury's AoE damage up until the 5 target cap, again, is quite good, the spec suffers from lack of crucial utility more than anything else.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    dont ask blizzard. ask the community. you can do nearly everything in the way you want. the community unfortunately tends to copy other players which results in the terms meta or fotm. the community decides if your class is enough. the community ignores the fact that a good player with a non meta class is better than vice versa.
    This is not a community created problem. Some classes/specs are objectively better than others in M+ and you don't have to watch top players to know that.

    It's Blizzard issue through and through.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    And what data point would that be? Looking at overall dungeon logs on WClogs (such as they are as a metric, granted) at the 90th percentile of +15 keys puts Fury on the top end of damage, and unlike Mut rogues who have a very small number of parses there are enough Furys to make the data somewhat accurate. I'd be curious to see what data point refutes this to make them "garbage in ever kind of encounter".

    In another order of idea, Sun King is the only encounter in CN to feature large amounts of AoE- and not without coincidence, it's also the only encounter where Fury is fairly competitive even if nowhere near as OP as boomies. Because Fury's AoE damage up until the 5 target cap, again, is quite good, the spec suffers from lack of crucial utility more than anything else.
    Logs are skewed, most people don't log M+ runs. The reality is that Fury is not in a good place, if they want Warrior to have zero utility then they should be true berserkers shitting on everything.
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  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Logs are skewed, most people don't log M+ runs. The reality is that Fury is not in a good place, if they want Warrior to have zero utility then they should be true berserkers shitting on everything.
    Most specs have tens of thousands of parses, some more than a hundred thousand, so the sample should be fairly representative all things considered. I ask again then, what is your data point, if the one I provided does not suffice? You said you had one.

    I've no argument RE utility and outlined my own fixes above, but damage is another matter is all.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Logs are skewed, most people don't log M+ runs. The reality is that Fury is not in a good place, if they want Warrior to have zero utility then they should be true berserkers shitting on everything.
    Fury pumps on AoE in dungeons tbf.

    That said, as a DPS Warrior with good experience, I only really found myself pugging when there was something I really wanted (like the Overwhelming Power Crystal from DOS) when there were no keys in the guild. I'd get declined for a while before getting invited, & whenever I got invited, I was like "what on earth are these people doing inviting a Warrior?!" Thankfully most runs went alright, but the reason I got invited to begin with was because I was ahead of the gear curve moreso than anything else. No-one takes a Warrior & thinks "ooh great!"

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Seriously, removing scrolls and nerfing drums just made grouping even mode of a headache in M+. Now for any challenging key you have two slots locked to brez and lust, and for instance a physical damage dealer with no warrior or monk in the party just deals without those valuable buffs because you just can't make do without lust and brez.
    I don’t know in higher keys but in the base 2-5 bracket everything is just doable even without lust and brez IF people know what they are doing. Yesterday I did a SoA 5 and we killed last two bosses in 4 because one dps died after one minute and no brez. The encounters were long and squeezed all my mana but we did them, even without my lust (cooldown). The day before I failed a SoA 4 with ppl of more or less same ilvl because group had barely a clue and were taking overwhelming damage at every pull.

    Until ppl do not realize that the dude who presses the buttons is way more important that the class he plays, pug life will be hard.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    dont ask blizzard. ask the community. you can do nearly everything in the way you want. the community unfortunately tends to copy other players which results in the terms meta or fotm. the community decides if your class is enough. the community ignores the fact that a good player with a non meta class is better than vice versa.
    You can but no matter if you're great at the game or really bad it's way,way easier to get content done if you bring the better classes.
    Having Hero/BL, combar res and other strong utility helps.

    I'm going to guess that it helps even more if you're not that great at the game. If you're having a hard time pushing just a tad further and you lack BL fore a key then that spel can help. So why settle for the classes that brings nothing?
    If you set up a group and you can pick a hunter or a demo lock and they both have the same score then you'd take the hunter (if you're smart) becuase it's just a better class. Nothing to do with the "community perception", it's just how the game is designed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    Honestly, this. All three have heavy representation in m+ right now and it's not exclusively because of lust.

    [and I say this as a shaman main]

    And the general philosophy of giving unique shit to a specific class so people will take them to groups is stupid to begin with. Design choices like that fuck groups that don't have whatever it is, and forces groups that do to maybe take a class (or person) they otherwise wouldn't really want just for that one thing. It is entirely possible to give classes a unique identity, feel, and gameplay without doing so, just as it is possible to give out some near-mandatory abilities more widely without those classes feeling homogenised.

    Buff scrolls should come back, drums should be competitive, and there should be more duplication of shit like the DH and Monk buffs IMO.
    This, please.

  18. #38
    Honestly,the issue will never be solved as long as people listen to metards.
    If enough people ignored the meta,or at least didn't take what reddit/streamers said as undeniable and perfect gospel,it wouldn't really be an issue,to be fair.

    All in all,you can't really blame Blizzard for that one,the community will whine regardless of how they handle this,either they make every class identical and people whine about class diversity,or they don't and people whine about balance

  19. #39
    Herald of the Titans MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    The only class that I don't around is a Warrior because they have garbage utility. I've been playing a Hunter and I have so much I can do in M+. I think Ret is fine because they've got great aoe and their Blessings come in handy when they actually use them. There are some nasty bleeds that can be dispelled with Blessing of Protection. The auras are pretty lame, though. I think Havoc is fine because they've got an aoe stun, imprison and a purge. Warrior is actually really bad.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Fury pumps on AoE in dungeons tbf.

    That said, as a DPS Warrior with good experience, I only really found myself pugging when there was something I really wanted (like the Overwhelming Power Crystal from DOS) when there were no keys in the guild. I'd get declined for a while before getting invited, & whenever I got invited, I was like "what on earth are these people doing inviting a Warrior?!" Thankfully most runs went alright, but the reason I got invited to begin with was because I was ahead of the gear curve moreso than anything else. No-one takes a Warrior & thinks "ooh great!"
    We pump in short burst windows and lose out on sustained AoE which is what the majority of higher keys are, especially on Fortified weeks. That's why Warrior as an entire class have the LOWEST appearance rate in timed 15+ keys. If they were "competitive" then they'd be brought. The reality is that Fury is does mediocre damage and has zero utility, which is why a class like Death Knight, who has similar utility, has nearly 3x the appearance rate because they do significantly better damage.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
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