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  1. #1

    Bring the Player not the Class vs Class Diversity for M+

    Curious on people's thoughts here.

    Shadowlands M+ really encourages the use of classes tool kit. Legion was just an AoE fest with the bosses being a bit more interesting. BFA interrupts on Trash became far more important but I felt that a Tank could handle most disruption on their own.

    With so many mobs now immune to CC, and mobs that can truck tanks I'm loving how M+ feels like a far more collobarative effort. I'm getting a bit of fast paced TBC feeling from it as tank due to the dangerous damage of trash packs, CC needed and the need to generate threat.

    When I'm seeking out players for my keys it's not just about who has the highest Raider.io and/or ilvl but also what utility they will bring.

    Of course you need Bloodlust and a Battle Rez but then you may need to consider skips, depending on the dungeon Rogue shroud, DH imprision, Priest Mind Soothe, etc. Dispell enrage effects. Mob repositioning, Death Grip, Ring of Piece, Knockbacks.

    I'm loving it Dungeons feel like a puzzle to be cracked as a collective with the tools you have available. I felt that in BFA a tank could hard carry as long as DPS pulled their numbers, but now it's cleary everyones job.

    Problem often though is you feeled kneecaped when playing with certain classes depending on your comp. I personally cringe hard when I see a DPS Warrior (unless I need a Venthyr for HoA), made worse by the fact that I tank on a Warrior myself. A DPS Warriors utility pales in comparision to a Hunter (the Batman of M+). Retribution Paladins don't feel much better, Havoc DH can be a bit underwhelming also. Then stacking certain classes just feels bad, for example I don't mind having a Shadow Priest in my group, but less inclined towards one if I already have a Priest Healing.

    If Blizz is going to insist on removing 25% Drums, and scrolls, they should spread out the utility a bit. Let DPS Warriors spec into Bloodlust in exchange for Defensive Stance perhaps. Combat ress for an additional class aswell. Also some Dungeons just feel silly w/o the right convenant. Don't really care if we don't have a Necrolord for ToP, still not sure WTF they do in Plaguefall. Where as you really want a Venthyr for HoA and Kyrian for Spires.

    So, do you guys prefer a more simple M+ where DPS numbers and a few AoE stuns and interrupts in king? Or Shadowlands more strigent intuitive criteria of interrupts, a soothe, a decurse, purges, immunities, tank externals (treants lol), misdirects, aoe ccs, battle rezzes, skip options, etc, but really restrict the your class options in a five man scenario.
    Last edited by Matthias; 2021-01-17 at 05:02 PM.

  2. #2
    dont ask blizzard. ask the community. you can do nearly everything in the way you want. the community unfortunately tends to copy other players which results in the terms meta or fotm. the community decides if your class is enough. the community ignores the fact that a good player with a non meta class is better than vice versa.

  3. #3
    Not sure why people are surprised with this, from day 1 of the game there was always a meta, you can't tank if you are not a warrior or heal if you are not a priest etc etc etc, blame the community, obvious blizz have some faults with class balance but overall the problem is and it will always be the community with the meta mentality

  4. #4
    For me the 15% drums was Blizzard's mistake. It pretty much mandates Shaman, Mage or, if it's down to that, Hunter in the group. Mages and Hunters don't seem to be in danger of not being invited seeing the deeps they pump, so I hope Blizz goes back on that drums nerf in 9.1.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    dont ask blizzard. ask the community. you can do nearly everything in the way you want. the community unfortunately tends to copy other players which results in the terms meta or fotm. the community decides if your class is enough. the community ignores the fact that a good player with a non meta class is better than vice versa.
    Yeah gotta echo this. If the community (as in, the people you as a player insist on being grouped in instead of finding a guild) likes being anal about the meta as much as a bronze-tier moba player, that's not on Blizzard. Current design is literally in response to the posts saying that all classes felt the same and thus there was no need to bring the "subpar" one to the content - well, now you gotta bring.

    And this "bring the class not the player" quote/thing is like 7 years old and misused as hell.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Yeah gotta echo this. If the community (as in, the people you as a player insist on being grouped in instead of finding a guild) likes being anal about the meta as much as a bronze-tier moba player, that's not on Blizzard. Current design is literally in response to the posts saying that all classes felt the same and thus there was no need to bring the "subpar" one to the content - well, now you gotta bring.

    And this "bring the class not the player" quote/thing is like 7 years old and misused as hell.
    I agree, I just wanna know if people prefer this in comparison to Legion or BFA M+. There have always been Meta choices, but I don't think I've ever seen it this dramatic. I love that utility feels more important in 5 mans then it has in years, yet I you can feel very bottlenecked at times when forming a group. It doesn't help that melee is having a rough time.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc! A Chozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    It doesn't help that melee is having a rough time.
    Oh yeah gotta agree with this. Blizzard's insistence in designing stuff that punishes melees is weird.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    dont ask blizzard. ask the community. you can do nearly everything in the way you want. the community unfortunately tends to copy other players which results in the terms meta or fotm. the community decides if your class is enough. the community ignores the fact that a good player with a non meta class is better than vice versa.
    a men to that, and to that i say remove the mdi its toxic to the m+ community

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Oh yeah gotta agree with this. Blizzard's insistence in designing stuff that punishes melees is weird.
    There's been a shortage of ranged DPS for many years, perhaps as long as the game has existed. Rather than try and figure out a way for ranged to be more rewarding, perhaps this is simply the counterreaction: make melee less and less friendly until the ratio is 60/40 ranged/melee. Obviously, the game actively *losing* ranged options since the official launch of the game is rather idiotic.


    As for the OP, it's a bit of a catch-22. At the top of the meta, there are classes that are genuinely unviable. If you look back at 8.3, it was simple fact that BM/Havoc/Fire/Outlaw were head and shoulders above every single other DPS in the game when it came to M+. As long as Ion takes the stance he took earlier this year, that they won't do a revolving door balance system and some classes are inherently more suited to be meta than others, we'll always see this trickle down effect where people prefer what's best.

    In a +15 does it matter whether you're a marksman hunter or an elemental shaman? Of course not, but MM is so powerful right now that given equal choice a bad marksman is probably going to do more than even a good ele let alone ones of equal skill. Part of the problem is community, for sure, but until Blizzard decides to make things closer together we'll always see problems. This can be done via numbers tuning or giving unique class buffs to some classes. I'm sure shaman or shadow would be a whole lot more enticing with something like a haste or crit buff for the party.

  10. #10
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    With a few exceptions, I think lack of diversity in m+ is overwhelmingly a player-perception caused issue, not a class balance or design issue. Pretty much every spec is viable in the key ranges that most players operate in. Some semblance of a meta is going to form whether the different between specs is a fraction of a percentage or based on some minor buff or utility, and the people that inclined to copy the meta are going to copy the meta regardless of how minute the differences are or how little they matter in the key ranges they are playing in.

    Even at the high levels, there seems to be a lot more variance in comps than there was in BFA (I'll be honest in that I don't remember Legion). Although tanks unfortunately are still pretty consistently the same class, there's 3-4 healing specs now in the top twenty runs, and 5 different DPS specs (MM, Outlaw, Fire, Chicken, Windwalker) which is fairly decent, consider the very top people are always going to gravitate to the absolute best/most useful even if the differences are minor.

    However, I'm not saying there aren't problems and that it couldn't be better. The lack of scrolls, drums being nerfed, and classes with limited utility falling behind even with good DPS, the disparity between tanks, etc, are all very real issues that magnify things. Utility is always going to be highly valued in M+ so it's going to push classes with limited CC behind unless their DPS is fantastic or the utility is covered by other people. Overall, I do think the issues are fairly small that just end up being amplified by player's desires to copy what the top players do, even when it doesn't matter as much.

    I'm not really sure how to fix that, if it even can be. The reality is, you can make almost anything work at lower key levels, even classes with limited utility, as long as you're covering core functionalities like interrupts, but that doesn't help if the community isn't willing to give them a shot.
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  11. #11
    Until you can convince people not to focus on the top 5% of keys and assume that they're running a sub-optimal group if they don't follow the meta outlined by these top key pushers this will be a problem. The removal of scrolls was supposed to help with this problem but it's really just made it worse.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Until you can convince people not to focus on the top 5% of keys and assume that they're running a sub-optimal group if they don't follow the meta outlined by these top key pushers this will be a problem. The removal of scrolls was supposed to help with this problem but it's really just made it worse.
    Seriously, removing scrolls and nerfing drums just made grouping even mode of a headache in M+. Now for any challenging key you have two slots locked to brez and lust, and for instance a physical damage dealer with no warrior or monk in the party just deals without those valuable buffs because you just can't make do without lust and brez.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Curious on people's thoughts here.

    Shadowlands M+ really encourages the use of classes tool kit. Legion was just an AoE fest with the bosses being a bit more interesting. BFA interrupts on Trash became far more important but I felt that a Tank could handle most disruption on their own.

    With so many mobs now immune to CC, and mobs that can truck tanks I'm loving how M+ feels like a far more collobarative effort. I'm getting a bit of fast paced TBC feeling from it as tank due to the dangerous damage of trash packs, CC needed and the need to generate threat.

    When I'm seeking out players for my keys it's not just about who has the highest Raider.io and/or ilvl but also what utility they will bring.

    Of course you need Bloodlust and a Battle Rez but then you may need to consider skips, depending on the dungeon Rogue shroud, DH imprision, Priest Mind Soothe, etc. Dispell enrage effects. Mob repositioning, Death Grip, Ring of Piece, Knockbacks.

    I'm loving it Dungeons feel like a puzzle to be cracked as a collective with the tools you have available. I felt that in BFA a tank could hard carry as long as DPS pulled their numbers, but now it's cleary everyones job.

    Problem often though is you feeled kneecaped when playing with certain classes depending on your comp. I personally cringe hard when I see a DPS Warrior (unless I need a Venthyr for HoA), made worse by the fact that I tank on a Warrior myself. A DPS Warriors utility pales in comparision to a Hunter (the Batman of M+). Retribution Paladins don't feel much better, Havoc DH can be a bit underwhelming also. Then stacking certain classes just feels bad, for example I don't mind having a Shadow Priest in my group, but less inclined towards one if I already have a Priest Healing.

    If Blizz is going to insist on removing 25% Drums, and scrolls, they should spread out the utility a bit. Let DPS Warriors spec into Bloodlust in exchange for Defensive Stance perhaps. Combat ress for an additional class aswell. Also some Dungeons just feel silly w/o the right convenant. Don't really care if we don't have a Necrolord for ToP, still not sure WTF they do in Plaguefall. Where as you really want a Venthyr for HoA and Kyrian for Spires.
    This is 100% a community problem. Like you said you FEEL kneecapped when you have a dps warrior. When pugging keys, I usually fill with whoever seems best determine by raider.io score, number of m+ completed etc... I’ve never been kneecapped classes by doing this. Maybe if I was trying to pug progression keys I’d want to also factor in class, but then I’d also ask myself why am I pugging progression keys?

    Also they should buff weak classes, but we do not need a homogenized snore fest like some of the past expansion classes.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Seriously, removing scrolls and nerfing drums just made grouping even mode of a headache in M+. Now for any challenging key you have two slots locked to brez and lust, and for instance a physical damage dealer with no warrior or monk in the party just deals without those valuable buffs because you just can't make do without lust and brez.
    Yea I feel similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teucer View Post
    This is 100% a community problem. Like you said you FEEL kneecapped when you have a dps warrior. When pugging keys, I usually fill with whoever seems best determine by raider.io score, number of m+ completed etc... I’ve never been kneecapped classes by doing this. Maybe if I was trying to pug progression keys I’d want to also factor in class, but then I’d also ask myself why am I pugging progression keys?

    Also they should buff weak classes, but we do not need a homogenized snore fest like some of the past expansion classes.
    100% is being a bit hyperbolic, meta's exist for a reason and the reality is the utility a DPS Warrior is going to bring compared to that of the alternative has never felt so blatant. No Lust, no Combat Ress, No mob Displacement, No AoE stun....hell their AoE fear can sometimes be a liability.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Teucer View Post
    This is 100% a community problem. Like you said you FEEL kneecapped when you have a dps warrior. When pugging keys, I usually fill with whoever seems best determine by raider.io score, number of m+ completed etc... I’ve never been kneecapped classes by doing this. Maybe if I was trying to pug progression keys I’d want to also factor in class, but then I’d also ask myself why am I pugging progression keys?

    Also they should buff weak classes, but we do not need a homogenized snore fest like some of the past expansion classes.
    It is definitely a design issue when some classes utility and damage FAR outshine other options. There is no dps combination that even comes close to what MM/Fire/Boomy/WW/Outlaw can do. This is obvious on paper and in reality. Combine that with a DH tank and a healer that can afford to go venthyr (shaman/disc mostly) and there is no reason to ever change this constellation. Warriors bring shit nothing in comparison to what WW and Outlaw bring. It's 100% blizzards fault for making the meta so obvious, public perception is based on that.

    To the ppl arguing the " if ppl only look at the top 5% of players ofc the community will never invite xyz etc" line, get a grip. There is a valid and obvious reason for the meta, and it's not the players fault, it's blizzards. It has nothing to do with player skill, you simply can't play around a massive lack of utility no matter how skilled you are. You can't emulate the sheer explosions of alternating aoe burst dps for packs that mm and fire bring.

    These dungeons require insane burst for certain packs, a myriad of interrupts, a soothe, a decurse, purges, immunities, tank externals (treants lol), misdirects, aoe ccs, battle rezzes, skip options and much more. Guess what, all of these things are brought by MM/Fire/Boomy/WW/ Outlaw. They also bring above average to absolute top tier dps. No reason to ever bring anything else to challenging m+ content.
    Last edited by LazuOG; 2021-01-17 at 07:23 AM.

  16. #16
    I wish they either give back scrolls or give other classes more utility as well.

    I know warlocks aren’t in that bad of a spot compared to let’s say dps warriors but if I’m honest I can’t think of any reason to bring a warlock over a boomkin or mage as they do more dps and bring more utility. Only thing I’ve seen is hearthstones in grevious being very nice to have. Fire mage being insane burst on trash , intellect buff and time warp along with an aoe cc on half the cooldown of warlocks without dr and boomkin just superior damage , a better battle res and speed roar.

    As others said this really doesn’t matter all too much when you doing anything below 10 but above that in the pug scene you can blame the people but really , if it’s your precious halls of atonement 14 and you have to make a pug to clear it , you can’t blame people for forming a group that has best chance of clearing it ( on paper at least ) . For me as a lock that would mean a Dh tank , shaman healer , firemage/mm hunter/boomkin and a ww/rogue

  17. #17
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    Class balance is one thing. Removing scrolls/drums is one of those bizarre ideas that seems amazing to people who love "support classes", "synergies" and so on (and doesn't matter *too much* in raids), but is horrible for small group content. One would think they'd learn from "token DH for magic debuff" in BFA, but instead of improving the situation they actively made it worse.
    And while it's not the main reason for the situation, it's still a piece of the puzzle. I have no idea why this was done, as it not only screws over small groups, but also makes professions even more useless. Lose lose?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Millyraynge View Post
    dont ask blizzard. ask the community. you can do nearly everything in the way you want. the community unfortunately tends to copy other players which results in the terms meta or fotm. the community decides if your class is enough. the community ignores the fact that a good player with a non meta class is better than vice versa.
    Accurate, but also not entirely accurate. A top tier, lets say Fury Warrior, won't even be able to compete with a mediocre Fire Mage or Windwalker in M+. There's too many specs that have very little useful utility, like Warrior, and there others who have way too much like Rogue.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    100% is being a bit hyperbolic, meta's exist for a reason and the reality is the utility a DPS Warrior is going to bring compared to that of the alternative has never felt so blatant. No Lust, no Combat Ress, No mob Displacement, No AoE stun....hell their AoE fear can sometimes be a liability.
    Literally the only thing Warriors bring to the table is an AoE snare, which is pretty useless overall.
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  19. #19
    Bring the player not the class is dead. At least since Legion but officially since BfA.

  20. #20
    I see at least 3 people in this thread that blame" the community". I'll bet that we will have at least 2 more that will blame "the community".
    And then we will have 5 people that can create their own group while playing non-meta specs.

    At the end of the day it is toxic and childish to demand the right to play with other people. Nobody has the right to force themselves upon others. If other people don't want to play with you then you should find people like yourself to play with.

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