Bring the Player not the Class vs Class Diversity for M+

[Jastall]

I don’t know in higher keys but in the base 2-5 bracket everything is just doable even without lust and brez IF people know what they are doing. Yesterday I did a SoA 5 and we killed last two bosses in 4 because one dps died after one minute and no brez. The encounters were long and squeezed all my mana but we did them, even without my lust (cooldown). The day before I failed a SoA 4 with ppl of more or less same ilvl because group had barely a clue and were taking overwhelming damage at every pull.

Until ppl do not realize that the dude who presses the buttons is way more important that the class he plays, pug life will be hard.

I don't want to start the elitism game, but it matters a lot less in these brackets, unless players are absolutely terrible bosses don't live long enough nor do enough damage to require a lust to burn them down, and for example the tank getting dunked and requiring an emergency brez is far less common.

I agree that people are being far too servile metaslaves- but if there's two things any half decent group would be foolish to form without, it's brez and lust, especially on Tyra weeks.

[chiddie]

I don't want to start the elitism game, but it matters a lot less in these brackets, unless players are absolutely terrible bosses don't live long enough nor do enough damage to require a lust to burn them down, and for example the tank getting dunked and requiring an emergency brez is far less common.

I agree that people are being far too servile metaslaves- but if there's two things any half decent group would be foolish to form without, it's brez and lust, especially on Tyra weeks.

Especially during Tyr weeks, group’s skill is important even in low brackets. I failed many keys with overgeared clueless ppl and succeeded with undergeared ppl that knew what to do.

Of course everything is more “relaxed” than in 10-15 bracket and classes/specs are not this mandatory but don’t think that you can chicken run the key and complete it unless you vastly overgear the key itself, mechanics are punishing even in low levels.

I did many 10-14 keys in BfA too, I know how it works. Also, I found 10+ keys somewhat easier, there were more people that knew what to do and fourth affix often helps.

[Relapses]

Buff scrolls should come back, drums should be competitive, and there should be more duplication of shit like the DH and Monk buffs IMO.

Even better: Ixnay the buff scrolls and just bring the old MoP meta back. Hell, they could even throw in DoT snapshotting and add Reforging back while they're at it!

^{a man can dream, can't he?}

[dadoodoo]

dont ask blizzard. ask the community. you can do nearly everything in the way you want. the community unfortunately tends to copy other players which results in the terms meta or fotm. the community decides if your class is enough. the community ignores the fact that a good player with a non meta class is better than vice versa.

thank you, someone that understands.

sometimes a class is far too overpowered in a season and that results in them falsely inflating there rio quicker because they get invited to EVERYTHING.

Example, rogues in s3 bfa, you had to just put up with how bad they were due to really needing shroud. dont even get me started on td which most of the time it was the rogues that we desperately needed that screwed up the cannons.

In the end i came up with a system that worked surprisingly well, i deducted 500 rio off EVERY single rogue, it fit nicely.

Blizzard shows a clear and obvious carelessness about class balance, look at prot pala in pvp for example, still no nerf, blizzard has decided along the expansions to provide little portals for the bad players who try hard to be viable without the need of them actually learning how to play the game properly or develop the kind of skill somoeone on a non meta class with the same score would have.

Muddying the water with class rng and gear rng so that if someone says "my class sucks, ive been unlucky" the person that was lucky will turn round and say there is nothing wrong with the game, game isnt measured on skill/game knowledge anymore its measured on social ability and luck.

I remember when the game had depth, take resto druid:

Then:
8% haste 4th rejuv
9.5% extra lifebloom tick
11.4% haste 5 regrowth tick
15% haste 5 rejuv ticks
17% extra lifebloom tick
21% 6 regrowth tick
27% 6 rejuv
31% extra lifebloom tick
while balancing spirt intellect and other stats you would have to decide which breakpoint to get inline with.

now:
equip highest ilvl.

How good would these meta class players be if they were playing back then?

[Relapses]

thank you, someone that understands.

sometimes a class is far too overpowered in a season and that results in them falsely inflating there rio quicker because they get invited to EVERYTHING.

Example, rogues in s3 bfa, you had to just put up with how bad they were due to really needing shroud. dont even get me started on td which most of the time it was the rogues that we desperately needed that screwed up the cannons.

In the end i came up with a system that worked surprisingly well, i deducted 500 rio off EVERY single rogue, it fit nicely.

Blizzard shows a clear and obvious carelessness about class balance, look at prot pala in pvp for example, still no nerf, blizzard has decided along the expansions to provide little portals for the bad players who try hard to be viable without the need of them actually learning how to play the game properly or develop the kind of skill somoeone on a non meta class with the same score would have.

Muddying the water with class rng and gear rng so that if someone says "my class sucks, ive been unlucky" the person that was lucky will turn round and say there is nothing wrong with the game, game isnt measured on skill/game knowledge anymore its measured on social ability and luck.

I remember when the game had depth, take resto druid:

Then:
8% haste 4th rejuv
9.5% extra lifebloom tick
11.4% haste 5 regrowth tick
15% haste 5 rejuv ticks
17% extra lifebloom tick
21% 6 regrowth tick
27% 6 rejuv
31% extra lifebloom tick
while balancing spirt intellect and other stats you would have to decide which breakpoint to get inline with.

now:
equip highest ilvl.

How good would these meta class players be if they were playing back then?

Blizzard has said they dislike breakpoints since they give the playerbase a reason to disregard upgrades because they're trying to hit some arbitrary number that isn't immediately obvious or telegraphed. I don't necessarily agree with this ideology but the recent change to how secondaries work in SL seems to be a doubling down on this philosophy so it's unlikely we'll see breakpoints make a reappearance any time soon.

[dadoodoo]

Blizzard has said they dislike breakpoints because they give the playerbase a reason to disregard upgrades because they're trying to hit some arbitrary number. I don't necessarily agree with this but the recent change to how secondaries work in SL seems to be a doubling down on this philosophy so it's unlikely to see that stuff make a reappearance any time soon.

im aware mate, expansion on expansion they have gotten further and further away from it now its just a case of equip highest ilvl.

I used to really enjoy the versatility of it and its what made me excel to be honest, i had the tools to adjust, dont have that anymore im just the same as the next player just im with less social skills so im not anywhere near as successful as i used to be when game ability/knowledge/logic mattered more than whos your friend, you used to make friends because of how good you was now its all about how fun you are to be around because the game is no longer hard the next guy will be able to do it too but he might be more fun.

[Argorwal]

Bring the player not the class is dead because it's more like "bring the player, and the class". The popularity of RIO massively sways people towards inviting players with more experience, you will usually invite the player over the class if there is a large disparity in experience (aka rio score/keys timed) but if you have the choice of two similarly experienced players you will choose the best class.

It'd be alive and well in situations where you're strapped for choice, but there are no shortage of dps players out there. As well as that, meta specs have more chance of building that experience because they get invited to more keys, that compounds the issue. But really the problem is the godawful tuning and the fact they are doing nothing at all about it.

The problem wouldn't exist if a select bunch of specs didn't have both the best utility and best damage by a considerable measure while the rest wallow in mediocrity.

I do think everything being cross realm, and the absolute glut of dps, is one of the largest issues.

There is no reason to settle on a non-perfect dps comp when there are so many applicants.

- - - Updated - - -

thank you, someone that understands.

sometimes a class is far too overpowered in a season and that results in them falsely inflating there rio quicker because they get invited to EVERYTHING.

Example, rogues in s3 bfa, you had to just put up with how bad they were due to really needing shroud. dont even get me started on td which most of the time it was the rogues that we desperately needed that screwed up the cannons.

In the end i came up with a system that worked surprisingly well, i deducted 500 rio off EVERY single rogue, it fit nicely.

Blizzard shows a clear and obvious carelessness about class balance, look at prot pala in pvp for example, still no nerf, blizzard has decided along the expansions to provide little portals for the bad players who try hard to be viable without the need of them actually learning how to play the game properly or develop the kind of skill somoeone on a non meta class with the same score would have.

Muddying the water with class rng and gear rng so that if someone says "my class sucks, ive been unlucky" the person that was lucky will turn round and say there is nothing wrong with the game, game isnt measured on skill/game knowledge anymore its measured on social ability and luck.

I remember when the game had depth, take resto druid:

Then:
8% haste 4th rejuv
9.5% extra lifebloom tick
11.4% haste 5 regrowth tick
15% haste 5 rejuv ticks
17% extra lifebloom tick
21% 6 regrowth tick
27% 6 rejuv
31% extra lifebloom tick
while balancing spirt intellect and other stats you would have to decide which breakpoint to get inline with.

now:
equip highest ilvl.

How good would these meta class players be if they were playing back then?

You know this wasn’t a design intent right?

This is them slapping bandaids on trying to make haste work with HoTs after TBC created haste with 0 HoT interaction.

[Vampyrr]

Honestly, this. All three have heavy representation in m+ right now and it's not exclusively because of lust.

[and I say this as a shaman main]

And the general philosophy of giving unique shit to a specific class so people will take them to groups is stupid to begin with. Design choices like that fuck groups that don't have whatever it is, and forces groups that do to maybe take a class (or person) they otherwise wouldn't really want just for that one thing. It is entirely possible to give classes a unique identity, feel, and gameplay without doing so, just as it is possible to give out some near-mandatory abilities more widely without those classes feeling homogenised.

Buff scrolls should come back, drums should be competitive, and there should be more duplication of shit like the DH and Monk buffs IMO.

While I agree, if you give DH buff to others theres no reason to ever bring havoc to anything at that point. They are literally there to be a buff bot.

[WskyDK]

While I agree, if you give DH buff to others theres no reason to ever bring havoc to anything at that point. They are literally there to be a buff bot.

There's no reason to bring havoc to anything. Bring a VDH

[Phala]

Fury is does mediocre damage and has zero utility, which is why a class like Death Knight, who has similar utility, has nearly 3x the appearance rate because they do significantly better damage.

Grip & combat rez are quite strong utility in my book.

[Tziva]

While I agree, if you give DH buff to others theres no reason to ever bring havoc to anything at that point. They are literally there to be a buff bot.

Maybe but that's just fucking stupid design. I don't think that is ever an argument for a class keeping a super unique utility or buff, I think that is an argument for fixing the class.

(that said, DH is not awful. They are solidly mid tier dps and are perfectly viable in almost every circumstance. Unless you're doing high keys where comp super super matters, there are plenty of reasons why someone might bring them -- better experience or gear or you need good interrupts or maybe it's your friend)

[Relapses]

Maybe but that's just fucking stupid design. I don't think that is ever an argument for a class keeping a super unique utility or buff, I think that is an argument for fixing the class.

(that said, DH is not awful. They are solidly mid tier dps and are perfectly viable in almost every circumstance. Unless you're doing high keys where comp super super matters, there are plenty of reasons why someone might bring them -- better experience or gear or you need good interrupts or maybe it's your friend)

Blizzard seems to think that the community will see certain classes and certain buffs and say, "Oh cool, we have a DH so that means I do more spell damage now. That's neat!" or "Wow, we have a Priest so that means we get extra HP...sweet!" As if the buffs themselves are tertiary to, you know, bringing the player. The funny thing is that it could actually work if all spec utility was legitimately balanced (ie, if 7% HP really meant the same to a group as Bloodlust); and the much scarier thing is that it's possible the devs simply feel like they can somehow force this mentality onto the playerbase by giving us no other reasonable alternatives except just dealing with it.

[Gaidax]

Blizzard seems to think that the community will see certain classes and certain buffs and say, "Oh cool, we have a DH so that means I do more spell damage now. That's neat!" or "Wow, we have a Priest so that means we get extra HP...sweet!" As if the buffs themselves are tertiary to, you know, bringing the player. The funny thing is that it could actually work if all spec utility was legitimately balanced (ie, if 7% HP really meant the same to a group as Bloodlust); and the much scarier thing is that it's possible the devs simply feel like they can somehow force this mentality onto the playerbase by giving us no other reasonable alternatives except just dealing with it.

Well they don't really want to give everyone carbon copy of everything.

They did make lapse in judgement with lust, imo, but overall the scheme where every class/spec has its own stuff that's not just simply throughput is a good scheme.

Maybe they need to make this stuff across the board be like priest buff, where you'd like it, but it's not a dealbreaker. Then delegate full lust/CR to cheap craftables and free class skills that do not count against utility box.

Sure there might still be a shroud situation or the "in the land of blind" thing, where some slightly more powerful buff/utility is suddenly proclaimed TEH META by the community, but at least it might not be as obvious as "whelp we need lust and CR".

[OrcsRLame]

The way I see it, organisms, (Not even just humans.) tend to choose the path of least resistance.

If you're pugging, there's just no good reason to not bring meta classes. Sure, that DH might be the best player in the world and that hunter might be the worst, but there's no way of knowing that. Your only metric to judge by before you see them in action is io score and ilvl. So all other things being equal it's just as likely the hunter is a god tier player and the DH is shit.

And honestly, I've ran plenty of m+ with meta comps and plenty with off meta comps and even in like 14s and 15s, (So not truly high keys.) the difference is so large that it's not possible to just ignore. It's like, if you bring some combination of hunter, boomy, WW and fire mage, the amount of mistakes you can make while still flying through 15s or even 2 chesting 15s is insane. But when you bring weaker classes like DH, ret, shaman, lock, etc the run is just so much harder. Small mistakes more easily snowball into larger ones because everything lives longer.

Running off meta comps feels just like running meta comps except everyone is 10-15 ilvl lower. That's my two cents at least.

[Vampyrr]

Maybe but that's just fucking stupid design. I don't think that is ever an argument for a class keeping a super unique utility or buff, I think that is an argument for fixing the class.

(that said, DH is not awful. They are solidly mid tier dps and are perfectly viable in almost every circumstance. Unless you're doing high keys where comp super super matters, there are plenty of reasons why someone might bring them -- better experience or gear or you need good interrupts or maybe it's your friend)

They are at the bottom of mid tier. In raiding other than the buff they are NOT needed over other classes who do good damage on all bosses. In M+ I have found their damage is fine with them being top occasionally due to the nature of shorter fights lining up better with them.

- - - Updated - - -

There's no reason to bring havoc to anything. Bring a VDH

Only 2 tank spots might already be filled in Raids and only 1 spot for M+ might also be filled already.

[Lefrog]

I think most people who have played any MMORPG can agree that the 3 pillars of DPS are:

Overall dmg
Burst potential
Utility

It is totally the community's doing on how much value they place on each for what type of content, but it is a developer's mistake to give certain classes all 3 tools. With raiding being the main stage of WoW for so long, I understand that a flat dmg nerf to hybrid classes or utility classes is dumb. After all, in any decent large raid size, utility will almost never be an issue.

They've also done a good job at keeping the damage requirements in raids low enough that mechanics > need to stack high sustain or burst classes unless you are going for world first. Unfortunately, I don't find this to be the case with mythic+. At an average ilvl of 210 (+15 gear), anything between a 12-15 is still incredibly hard this xpac. The 3 DPS tools are therefore a lot more needed. A group of friends and I, who've been clearing 12-13s for a week, farmed lower level DoS for trinkets that we were missing...and we invited plenty of non-meta classes...because we knew that if the player was decent we'd still time it. That is not the case at +13 when 2 trash wipes will ruin your key and your chances of getting that annoying trash mob down relies on having high burst and utility.

[La]

The fact is you can simply bring the player AND the class by virtue of how many people try to get into higher key groups, it doesn't matter if you can it all as any spec or class.

Why wouldn't you want an MM for example? They delete packs with their covenant + CDs in an instant, they have CDs up for every pack, and they are strong sustained pack damage and ST. Not to mention the utility they bring which is especially useful for many affixes, the only thing lacking being a stun.

It's when you see idiots who don't understand why that's only really relevant in higher keys that you come across people expecting "meta" in a +6 or 8

[Zyky]

Grip & combat rez are quite strong utility in my book.

In reality they aren't that phenomenal and are about as useful as Piercing Cry and Intimidating Shout. The situations where you need to grip in M+ are far and few and if you're a good group you'll never need the combat rez which makes it worthless.

[WskyDK]

Only 2 tank spots might already be filled in Raids and only 1 spot for M+ might also be filled already.

havoc isn't worth bringing to M+ just for the damage buff.

[Argorwal]

The fact is you can simply bring the player AND the class by virtue of how many people try to get into higher key groups, it doesn't matter if you can it all as any spec or class.

This is the flip side of accessibility and having everything be cross realm.

The applicant pool is so large you can be picky and still put a group together in a reasonable amount of time.

Before cross realm, putting together groups could take much longer and holding out for specific classes and specs would take a very long time so people more willing to roll with a non-perfect comp.

Not saying cross realm or accessibility is bad, but it has a cost.