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  1. #1

    something i don't get

    so i was just watching some lore videos and something struck me. so when sylvanas was killed by arthas and raised into a banshee against her will and forced to kill her friends and family, she swore vengeance on arthas. she later got said vengeance and then offed herself. this led to her meeting the jailer, teaming up with him, and then all the following events.

    given we have seen the jailer craft a mourne blade right in front of her, she surely knows the origins of frostmourne and the helm of domination. this means that the jailer, sylvanas' current ally, was the one responsible for her death, necromantic rebirth, and subsequent killing of said friends and family. i get that sylvanas is currently in a mood where she wants to turn the system on it's head thinking she has been given no choice in her life but why would she team up with the person who personally created her original unending hatred?

    the only thing i can think of is that uther and devos started the creation of the mawsworn/forsworn before sylvanas offed herself (which is possible given that devos was turned before arthas died), the jailer then had devos take sylvanas to him instead of the arbiter, lied to her about everything, and sylvanas is only finding out now that the jailer caused all this. but even that doesn't make sense to me because sylvanas knew before anduin was kidnapped that the plan was to turn him to their side, willingly or not.

    any insight on something i may be missing would be appreciated.

  2. #2
    Given the intelligence of Sylvanas, I'm sure she has to know what the Jailer does and did..

    But yeah, that happens when you retcon too much and try to fit in all this new lore - the old lore will sound all messed up.

  3. #3
    Sylvaanas also turned right around and started backstabbing and enslaving people to her will even in WC3 so there's no real logic behind her actions. She's a hypocrite and a bastard and always kindah as been.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  4. #4
    She plans to betray the Jailer.

  5. #5
    Maybe all this ends in Sylvanas betraying the Jailer.

    Maybe this was her plan all along.
    Making buddies with the Jailer to stab him kn the back later.

    She sacrificed all those people just to get her revenge on the one being that is ultimately responsible for all her suffering.

  6. #6
    Problem is, we don't know the endgame. We don't know what "breaking the system" entails, what the Jailer's ultimate plan is, and what Sylvanas sees as motivation for her role in all of it.

    Until we know that, we can't really properly evaluate her actions. Maybe it'll turn out she made a reasonable choice, given all the circumstances. Or maybe not and she was deceived. Or she's just really terrible. Who knows.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    SNIP
    Good points, these are retcon problems I believe.

    One of the explanations might be that she has "moved on".
    I doubt she feels strongly tied to her previous High Elf-ish life, it was several years since she has become a leader of the Forsaken.
    The thing she has seen - other worlds, dimensions, Burning Legion, Titans, Azshara, Old Gods, realm of death...
    I think it's safe to say that vengeance for Quel'Thalas pales in scale to all of that.

  8. #8
    Yes, it's one of the biggest problems about this partnership. The most straightforward answer would be she simply got over it, but why would she even care about the unfairness of the universe if she made peace with her past, then? Furthermore they made a point of showing that Sylvanas still has lingering trauma regarding Arthas/the Lich King. Which is frankly bullshit but oh well, that whole cinematic was bullshit. They've yet to adress this big elephant in the room in the story but I'm not really holding my breath. Most probable answer is that she's been planning to betray the Jailer all along. That or she's being mind-controlled. Or they just made her fucking dumb.

    We're desperately missing some crucial flashbacks of her first meeting with the Jailer and at this point I'm not even sure we'll ever see anything like that.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    We're desperately missing some crucial flashbacks of her first meeting with the Jailer and at this point I'm not even sure we'll ever see anything like that.
    Yes.. right now Blizzard is doing a really bad job at selling the story. They just expect us to go with it and wait for resolutions that won't even show up (or have us make up our own head-canon)

    It's story-writing 101. I mean, you don't have to give away exposition like Kadgar or Magni always do, but players cannot see inside the mind of the writer. It's the writer's purpose to sell the story and immerse the listener/viewer/player of said story.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    We're desperately missing some crucial flashbacks of her first meeting with the Jailer and at this point I'm not even sure we'll ever see anything like that.
    Honestly we're missing a Warbringer-style, Azshara/N'zoth one was very good (imo) and gave us some background. The same setup but with Sylvanas/Jailer would have worked.
    I guess we'll see during the expac because no way they leave this part out of the expac.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by bagina View Post
    Yes, it's one of the biggest problems about this partnership. The most straightforward answer would be she simply got over it, but why would she even care about the unfairness of the universe if she made peace with her past, then? Furthermore they made a point of showing that Sylvanas still has lingering trauma regarding Arthas/the Lich King. Which is frankly bullshit but oh well, that whole cinematic was bullshit. They've yet to adress this big elephant in the room in the story but I'm not really holding my breath. Most probable answer is that she's been planning to betray the Jailer all along. That or she's being mind-controlled. Or they just made her fucking dumb.

    We're desperately missing some crucial flashbacks of her first meeting with the Jailer and at this point I'm not even sure we'll ever see anything like that.
    She's been exactly what she despises since Cata, where she literally became a lich queen, raising others into undeath regardless of if they wanted to or not.
    For the Alliance, and for Azeroth!

  12. #12
    Yes and no, why would she blame the jailer? when's the last time people blamed a gun for killing someone and not the person pulling the trigger? When a drunk driver runs over a kid do you blame Toyota? or the drunk driver?

    Yeah he made the weapons that turned her, but he wasn't the one who wielded them. Arthas acted on his own, when he killed Sylvannas he didn't have the helm yet. Only the runeblade, so you can't say his mind wasn't his own. He was corrupted sure, but he still had free will

  13. #13
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sámsa View Post
    Maybe all this ends in Sylvanas betraying the Jailer.

    Maybe this was her plan all along.
    Making buddies with the Jailer to stab him kn the back later.

    She sacrificed all those people just to get her revenge on the one being that is ultimately responsible for all her suffering.
    While this would be trite as hell (hue hue), it would at least make some sense, except for a detail. This Jailor dude is supposed to be a very ancient, wise and manipulative @#$&%, older and more powerful than Titans themselves. Yet now he's got a new partner/employee who has quite a knack for backstabbing people, friend and foe alike - and he seems to be completely oblivious about it... 500 IQ move by our Blue Squid pal /facepalm

    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Yeah he made the weapons that turned her, but he wasn't the one who wielded them. Arthas acted on his own, when he killed Sylvannas he didn't have the helm yet. Only the runeblade, so you can't say his mind wasn't his own. He was corrupted sure, but he still had free will
    While you do have a point, it is strongly implied in the Human campaign from WC3 RoC that Arthas seizing Frostmourne was the point of no return for him. He was solidly under the LK's command from then on, much like Zerg-ified Kerrigan in the first Starcraft.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  14. #14
    Maybe to Sylvanas The Jailer may have made the weapon, but Arthas did the deed. To her unless she knew Arthas had no agency it would just be an evil plan that could have been foiled by a better man - so Arthas would still be held accountable to her. I don't think you hate someone that long and get over it the second another option comes up to conveniently throw your anger against. I think she'll keep going on hating Arthas and blaming the system that broke her. Maybe Anduin could change her mind by convincing her she had turned into the very thing she hated, or maybe she'll realize that, or maybe what she's doing is actually saving everyone from a broken system. The Jailer could have been wronged, too, but the Jailer has also done a lot of wrong and may just be using that to justify what he's doing even if it's terrible. Either way I don't think the Jailer is walking away from everything he has done here, but Sylvanas still can.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sámsa View Post
    Maybe all this ends in Sylvanas betraying the Jailer.

    Maybe this was her plan all along.
    Making buddies with the Jailer to stab him kn the back later.

    She sacrificed all those people just to get her revenge on the one being that is ultimately responsible for all her suffering.
    that i could see being the case. sylvanas did get garithos on her side for a tactical advantage and then as soon as he fulfilled his purpose, she offed him. that would be in character.

  16. #16
    Once she met the Jailer, she realized this is about more than her conflict with Arthas. Death is her true enemy and she's been working with the Jailer to break death ever since.

  17. #17
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dipzz View Post
    Yes and no, why would she blame the jailer? when's the last time people blamed a gun for killing someone and not the person pulling the trigger? When a drunk driver runs over a kid do you blame Toyota? or the drunk driver?

    Yeah he made the weapons that turned her, but he wasn't the one who wielded them. Arthas acted on his own, when he killed Sylvannas he didn't have the helm yet. Only the runeblade, so you can't say his mind wasn't his own. He was corrupted sure, but he still had free will
    He didn't have free will his soul was a slave to Frostmourne and since the Lich King helmet is really at Zovaal's will. You get the picture.

    OT: No the story isn't being sold badly, it not revealing all the info doesn't equate bad.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

    Warrior-Magi

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    OT: No the story isn't being sold badly, it not revealing all the info doesn't equate bad.
    Actually in a multi-part/multi-release story knowing when to reveal certain info must definitely be considered and yes, poor planning and a weird order of hint/revelations is bad story telling.

  19. #19
    I cannot wait till Danuser writes about how a being that:

    took multiple other powerful beings to chain
    Is described as an awesomely powerful nameless evil
    who bested the primus, who is basically supposed to be the warlord prime of the shadowlands
    Can consume titan souls

    Is beaten by Sylvanas who got destroyed by Arthas (the beings pawn), got shot in the head by Godfrey and cut by Saurfang.

  20. #20
    Sometimes your enemy is your friend if it furthers your goal.
    She could be using him.

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