Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
5
... LastLast
  1. #41
    As a healer, I miss spirit. Was fun to play around with and resulted in your healing style evolving as you moved through the expansion and got more.

    Otherwise I’m fine with everything in the cure system. Expertise and hit were a pain in the ass.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    You are correct, except with pieces that are not jewelry and weapons. For all other pieces (9 of them), primary stat is a direction reflection of itemlevel. Every helm, shoulder, cloak, chest, bracer, gloves, belt, pants, and boots of the same itemlevel will have exactly the same primary without exception. That's why I think the system needs to change. It is uninspired and uninteresting. It is exciting to see secondary values interact with each other. I would love to see some exception in primary as well.
    You're not making any useful argument for why it shouldn't, though. You're just saying you don't like it. And of course it is that way, that's the whole point. Yes, it's not interesting. It's not meant to be interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    It's not a matter of lack of knowledge. It's a matter of the game being better by adding flavor. Primaries are just flat stats that don't do anything that could be done through itemlevel - that's what I want to change.
    And they are that way entirely by design. You're pretty much asking them to break their design just to make things "interesting" according to your personal definition.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    It's not a matter of lack of knowledge. It's a matter of the game being better by adding flavor. Primaries are just flat stats that don't do anything that could be done through itemlevel - that's what I want to change.
    No, it couldn't. I've explained why. Primary stat serves an important role, removing it makes gearing even more of a clusterfuck. It doesn't make it more "interesting".
    Intshuffle
    <Arctic Avengers>
    Kazzak-EU

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Ever since the homogenization that happened over a decade ago, primary stats have disappeared from the game, except as a sub-stat completely defined by itemlevel and slot. Every item of the same itemlevel and slot has exactly the same primary stat. Since this is the case - the primary stat actually serves no purpose in decision making. Players have long equated primary stat with itemlevel.

    We used to have exciting interactions where players had to choose for example Strength vs. Agility, in addition to secondary distributions, because each gave a different benefit, of which we knew what they did. Today, itemlevel, erm, a primary stat "Increases the magnitude of your attacks and abilities." This is a boring iteration that has made loot not exciting, and idiot-proof (yes, I am aware idiot-proofing the game is necessary).

    We have personal loot now. We no longer need to have the community decide that the cloth pants should go to the Moonkin because they are the flavor of the tier. Each individual player is in charge of what items they receive and use.
    I don't think you understand how itemization in this game works. At least, by what you wrote here, it appears you do not. At all.

    The way they tune things now is perfectly fine for what they're trying to achieve. This allows the direct power creep of the player to reflect the content they're currently doing. The primary stat now functions as basically Spell Power or Attack Power. Then your secondary stats help create a little bit of playstyle diversity. They did it this way specifically to allow more room to grow within an expansion and within the game itself. More primary stat, means you're capable of doing more DPS. If you have 500 str, and 100% crit/mastery/etc, a player with 1500 str will more than likely out dps you even with 10% crit/mastery/etc. Like many others have stated, ilvl matters now. Legion and even in BFA a bit, folks were using items 10-20-30-50 ilvls lower, because the secondary stats made up for the lack of primary stats in terms of dps. That is no longer a thing. So in reality what you're asking for, is already in the game. This again leads me to believe you don't understand how it even works.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogarash View Post
    Didn't they make the actual armor your class wore give you a bonus in Wrath? I remember distinctly liking that decision because of all the drama leather loot caused to me wanting it as enhance in TBC, since many leather items like Vision of Sargeras were so damn good. But in wrath, you lost flat out 5% of damage or agility or something significant if you didn't wear mail in all armor slots. Didn't you have that as a healer?
    Cata, yeah. They added armor proficiencies. The clothies who can only wear cloth just got flat agi for wearing all cloth, not like they had a choice. =)
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Cata, yeah. They added armor proficiencies. The clothies who can only wear cloth just got flat agi for wearing all cloth, not like they had a choice. =)
    I'm pretty sure they all got int, what with all cloth only having int and them all being int users.

  7. #47
    This weird scapegoating of random features will never cease to amaze me.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Is it primary stat that makes itemlevel upgrades or just itemlevel? Was it the chicken or the egg? This is the point - it is simply a copy paste of another formula.
    Item level is determined by total number of stats. Item level isn't a magical stat in and of itself that makes something better. The higher item level something is, the more stats on it. Including primary. And for the first time in a long time, primaries are actually GOOD and thus an item level upgrade is usually going to be an upgrade.

    People have been asking for this for years. I feel like today is "complain about things that don't matter" day on these forums...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You're not making any useful argument for why it shouldn't, though. You're just saying you don't like it. And of course it is that way, that's the whole point. Yes, it's not interesting. It's not meant to be interesting.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And they are that way entirely by design. You're pretty much asking them to break their design just to make things "interesting" according to your personal definition.
    That is the purpose of the thread.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    No, it couldn't. I've explained why. Primary stat serves an important role, removing it makes gearing even more of a clusterfuck. It doesn't make it more "interesting".
    Welcome to the word "opinion."

  10. #50
    The Patient Lazerbrain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    In your head!
    Posts
    225
    remove gear from the game make it all cosmetic, and balans stats with gems that drop from bosses and the likes, everyone gets what they want.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I don't think you understand how itemization in this game works. At least, by what you wrote here, it appears you do not. At all.

    The way they tune things now is perfectly fine for what they're trying to achieve. This allows the direct power creep of the player to reflect the content they're currently doing. The primary stat now functions as basically Spell Power or Attack Power. Then your secondary stats help create a little bit of playstyle diversity. They did it this way specifically to allow more room to grow within an expansion and within the game itself. More primary stat, means you're capable of doing more DPS. If you have 500 str, and 100% crit/mastery/etc, a player with 1500 str will more than likely out dps you even with 10% crit/mastery/etc. Like many others have stated, ilvl matters now. Legion and even in BFA a bit, folks were using items 10-20-30-50 ilvls lower, because the secondary stats made up for the lack of primary stats in terms of dps. That is no longer a thing. So in reality what you're asking for, is already in the game. This again leads me to believe you don't understand how it even works.
    I fully understand how it works. I am suggesting it is time to change. Games need to evolve. 16-year-old games die if they do not change. Nothing of what I'm asking is in the game. What is in the game is powerful, bland primary stats that serve no purpose other than making numbers bigger.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I don't think you understand how itemization in this game works. At least, by what you wrote here, it appears you do not. At all.

    The way they tune things now is perfectly fine for what they're trying to achieve. This allows the direct power creep of the player to reflect the content they're currently doing. The primary stat now functions as basically Spell Power or Attack Power. Then your secondary stats help create a little bit of playstyle diversity. They did it this way specifically to allow more room to grow within an expansion and within the game itself. More primary stat, means you're capable of doing more DPS. If you have 500 str, and 100% crit/mastery/etc, a player with 1500 str will more than likely out dps you even with 10% crit/mastery/etc. Like many others have stated, ilvl matters now. Legion and even in BFA a bit, folks were using items 10-20-30-50 ilvls lower, because the secondary stats made up for the lack of primary stats in terms of dps. That is no longer a thing. So in reality what you're asking for, is already in the game. This again leads me to believe you don't understand how it even works.
    I fully understand how it works. I am suggesting it is time to change. Games need to evolve. 16-year-old games die if they do not change. Nothing of what I'm asking is in the game. What is in the game is powerful, bland primary stats that serve no purpose other than making numbers bigger with zero differentiation between similar pieces.

  12. #52
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    15,689
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Is it primary stat that makes itemlevel upgrades or just itemlevel? Was it the chicken or the egg? This is the point - it is simply a copy paste of another formula.

    Why would you want crit? Why would you want mastery? Because they do something interesting. Primary stat does not.
    How do you define "do something interesting"? Because what crit and mastery do ultimately boils down to "deal more damage", which is what your primary stat does, so, technically, the primary stat is equally as interesting as the secondary stats.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  13. #53
    Bloodsail Admiral salate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Russia, Samara
    Posts
    1,141
    I wanna more secondary stats. Multistrikes, chance on hits, equip bonuses.
    Auras, shields (a-la legendary neck from molten core) etc-etc.

    Dunno, but I hated when people wore cloth on plate armor user.
    step into everything will gief ya nothing, mon

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    That is the purpose of the thread.
    What is? You're not making sense.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    How do you define "do something interesting"? Because what crit and mastery do ultimately boils down to "deal more damage", which is what your primary stat does, so, technically, the primary stat is equally as interesting as the secondary stats.
    They often change how spells interact with eachother and stacking certain stats change rotations. Primary do not change anything other than make every ability more powerful. Additionally, primary stats are a guaranteed, inflexible part of items. Secondaries are fully modifiable. Going from 0% crit to 10% crit does not equate to a 10% damage increase. It is much more complex than that, especially with certain specs. There is a difference between 'ultimately boils down to' and 'does.'

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    What is? You're not making sense.
    I am making perfect sense, you are not comprehending it. I will summarize:

    Primary stats on gear should be more interesting and not rigidly defined by itemlevel.
    Last edited by Jonnusthegreat; 2021-01-18 at 10:47 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I'm pretty sure they all got int, what with all cloth only having int and them all being int users.
    Yeah, misstype there. They got free 5% for free for wearing their cloth so they were on even keel with the other classes who could wear other stuff.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  17. #57
    I remember when intellect increased your mana pool.

    Getting gear was definitely exciting.

    Also armor pen should be brought back, something warriors could definitely use nowadays.

  18. #58
    Dreadlord Wolfrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Tarren Mill (EU)
    Posts
    760
    You know what, I agree with you... Balance is important ofc, but as you say now... those stats... has become pointless and could be invisible... since they make no sence... and if stats become like that... what is the point of them, I do remember when stats made sence to go for, and that feeling is great.

    Its understandable for the Min/maxers they want less things to calculate on and have the perfect balace... but that makes things boring, stuff like that should be a Player choice not... make it an over all thing that is the same for everyone.

    Hope what you say will happen, It was so fun in vanilla when a green item droped with "Intelect and agility".

    So I am all for making it more interesting.

    PS: picking the right stats should be a thing a good player does, not what the game does for you in Default mode.

    PPS: if you ask me all the stats... should be useful in some way for all the classes.
    -

    One Learns most when Teaching others!

  19. #59
    Warchief Notshauna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    2,081
    Sure they could replace the primary stats with player power and the result would be the same, but that is by design after they tried to make them work as more complicated and they failed. This isn't a WoW specific issue primary stats have always kind of been a mess, it's actually very difficult to balance Strength, Agility and Intelligence while keeping them as unique stats. It's the reason why Intelligence was amazing in D&D 3.5 but the worst stat in 5e. It's the reason why every Dragon Age game has reworked their stats versus the last one. These aren't cherry picked examples either, RPGs have been trying, and largely failing, to make primary stats work for decades. WoW is just one to few that realized it's more interesting working with more clearly defined stats.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Each individual player is in charge of what items they receive and use.
    You must have not raided in a decent guild since personal loot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Is it primary stat that makes itemlevel upgrades or just itemlevel? Was it the chicken or the egg? This is the point - it is simply a copy paste of another formula.

    Why would you want crit? Why would you want mastery? Because they do something interesting. Primary stat does not.
    The fuck are you talking about? Higher ilvl gear has a higher budget for stats. All stats, both primary and secondary. You're not even making a real argument. How does those "do something interesting" anymore than primary stat? They make your dps or hps go up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    It's not ironic - this post has nothing to do with how powerful stats are in relation to others. It's that having a primary stat is meaningless, since, as you said, it's just ilvl that does it.
    The ilvl decides the stat budget........ fuck you're dense.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •