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  1. #1

    Is everything being so free such a good thing?

    I remember back in tbc when i was a clueless fury warrior running round with double avool zul of jin thinking i was doing ok (agi daggers)

    This was the only source of what i thought was me getting better (buying boes) so a guild recruitment officer inspected me he could see that i was putting in a ton of effort (even though it was in the wrong area and i was clearly clueless)

    This person spotted i was trying and put me on the right path by taking me to the training dummies and recount, we had a long chat, i joined his raid guild once he seen i was listening to what he was saying and there was immidiate improvement in my output, just because i was clueless about what was what didnt mean i was actually dumb, he could see that i just needed pointing in the right areas.

    Like telling the time as a child, its hard when you dont know how, as soon as you learn it becomes easy, wow is the same, things you dont know are hard, when you know them they are easy, are blizzard not taking away that learning curve by just handing out gear to everyone and nerfing everything?

    Example being taughast, was it really that hard pre nerf? would it really of been such a bad thing to keep something in the game to give everyone to work towards if it was too hard? really? taking away that deep satisfaction when you conquer something hard? i feel sorry for new players now, they arent getting to experience the joy that once was when you figured out something that was hard (for you individually) and then conquered it by opening your spellbook and figuring out how the game works, its legit now just a case of wait till blizzard nerfs it or gives us enough gear to do it.

    My point is, by giving everyone such a free and easy way to see the content, isnt it taking away that learning curve? if your bad, then your bad whether you see it or not, the issue with this game is bad players arent as easy to spot as i was back then, completely off the track, even someone as clueless as i was back then would be running round in 205 minimum right now, everyone who puts a bit of effort in is at least 205 when you consider covenent gear and battleground gear is 197.

    Since them days expansion on expansion blizzard have made it easier to cater to the people who arent very good taking away that learning aspect (im not critisisng them)

    When i raided first and progressed betrayer of humanity was the ultimate goal, the only source of gear which was on a weekly lockout, there was 4/5 better dps in front of me, more established raid members, i was waiting for the day i got it every week attending raids dreaming of getting that twohand. what do players dream for now?

    What do people have to work towards now? you can pay a few hundred thousand gold and collect.

    Blizzard have simplified the game so much over the years, feel free to add points to this list

    -Introduction of lfg
    -Introduction of lfr
    -Removal of more deeper game stats like hit points, spirit, haste breakpoints, armor penetration all things that would have to be thought about when balancing gear all removed in a bid to simplify for the more raw players like i was.
    -complete dumbing down of talent tress, yes the talent trees pre cata were just as easy but that had a lot more variance, you could tweak a build rather than have everyone running the exact same talents which gave you more to think about how you could adapt and overcome what you was doing.
    - introduction of weekly chest
    - introduction overpowered items that dropped via rng.
    - introduction of gear that puts out most of the damage for you (twilight devastation/stars/echoeing void)

    Imagine as clueless as i was if i just picked up the game now, do you think that guild recruitment officer could of spotted the effort i was putting in?

    There are ALOT of players in this game that will happily help someone who is trying and will put the effort in, my point is, how do you tell now who is trying and who isnt with all the free gearing going around and the game being so simplified?

    The game has changed so much since back then, its like now all people care about spending time with there friends online (not a bad thing) with the time inbetween being filled by just walking around collecting things that need little/no thought process to collect, problem is there is so little to differentiate between these players and the top end players that really know there stuff that the water is muddied to the point everyone looks the same.

    Progressing is harder because players like the player i was are rocking into the more demanding content oblivious to how unequipped they are.

    take me as i was back then if i was to play my own key, i cant equipe the wrong primary stat gear so thats fixed (thanks to blizzard assigning what gear is for you)
    i have decent gear because well, needs no explanation.

    m+2 - +3 thanks to the one player that knew his stuff carrying
    m+5 - +2 thanks to the one player again boosting
    m+7 - +1
    m+8 -1
    m+7 - lucky enough to get a party of 4 players farming a specific item that knew there stuff +3

    In no time at all i have a +10 key in my hand as the player i once was, repeat this untill all 10s are done and then when you look at rio you see a player that looks like he at least knows something about the game (i did not)

    Players like the player i was, clueless but putting in the effort would then repeatidly join 11 keys getting boosted in every single one of them, 12 keys, 13 keys, boost boost boost boost all the while oblivious untill the wall is reached where 4 players cant boost someone that bad.

    Ever wondered how someone "that bad" (as bad as i was) is in your level key? this post is your answer.

    I remember when the game had depth, take resto druid:

    Then:
    8% haste 4th rejuv
    9.5% extra lifebloom tick
    11.4% haste 5 regrowth tick
    15% haste 5 rejuv ticks
    17% extra lifebloom tick
    21% 6 regrowth tick
    27% 6 rejuv
    31% extra lifebloom tick
    while balancing spirt intellect and other stats you would have to decide which breakpoint to get inline with.

    now:
    equip highest ilvl.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    An additional point about how rotations are also simplified.

    then:
    make a gearset list, grind for it.
    1) keep rend up
    2) mortal strike
    3) overpower as a 1st filler
    4) slam as a second filler
    5) bladestorm after a mortal strike with at least 4 seconds rend up if low on rage.
    6) all this while watching your swing timer to not cut one of your mellee hits short.
    this is the basic rotation that you would have to do while killing mimiron hardmode pre nerf.

    bfa:
    pray to rng for corruption.
    press buttons hope twilight dev rng is good for you
    this is the basic rotation to be a god in m+ early weeks season 4

    had a guy trying to tell me a player watching his 15/20 sec buff that procs once per minute is no different than a player watching a 2.4sec swing timer and fitting his rotation in between. blindly biased presumption if ever there was one.
    Last edited by dadoodoo; 2021-01-20 at 05:44 AM.

  2. #2
    -Removal of more deeper game stats like hit points, spirit, haste breakpoints, armor penetration all things that would have to be thought about when balancing gear all removed in a bid to simplify for the more raw players like i was.
    I remember armor pen, the stat you just threw onto all of your gear without a care cause it was so powerful. None of these stats were "thought out"in what you chose.

    -complete dumbing down of talent tress, yes the talent trees pre cata were just as easy but that had a lot more variance, you could tweak a build rather than have everyone running the exact same talents which gave you more to think about how you could adapt and overcome what you was doing.
    Everyone did just run the exact same things except for the niche times where you could use something else.

    - introduction overpowered items that dropped via rng.
    this is literally wow loot since the beginning of the game.

    And buying a carry isn't just "pay and collect", ive seen people buy a carry and get no gear. Making the game harder, doesnt make people get better. A bad player will always be a bad player because they dont want to put in the effort to learn.

    Example being taughast, was it really that hard pre nerf? would it really of been such a bad thing to keep something in the game to give everyone to work towards if it was too hard?
    This was not a matter of "omg so hard plox nerf", for some classes Torghast was completely impossible, and for some after the nerf, it's still a coin toss. I have a 200 ilvl rogue who cannot do Torghast alone without getting very lucky Anima, where as my monk at a 180 ilvl was blasting through it, pre nerf.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    with all the free gearing going around
    1) Terrible blog post

    2) What free gearing? I'd like a free 220 set, how do I get that? That'd be great!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by oldgeezer View Post
    1) Terrible blog post

    2) What free gearing? I'd like a free 220 set, how do I get that? That'd be great!
    Do PVP and ignore PVE basically.
    Or just do +10 for weekly chest.
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    I'm Commander Crabby, and this is my favorite forum on the website.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    I remember armor pen, the stat you just threw onto all of your gear without a care cause it was so powerful. None of these stats were "thought out"in what you chose.


    Everyone did just run the exact same things except for the niche times where you could use something else.


    this is literally wow loot since the beginning of the game.

    And buying a carry isn't just "pay and collect", ive seen people buy a carry and get no gear. Making the game harder, doesnt make people get better. A bad player will always be a bad player because they dont want to put in the effort to learn.



    This was not a matter of "omg so hard plox nerf", for some classes Torghast was completely impossible, and for some after the nerf, it's still a coin toss. I have a 200 ilvl rogue who cannot do Torghast alone without getting very lucky Anima, where as my monk at a 180 ilvl was blasting through it, pre nerf.
    You miss my point, it gave players something to think about, a reason to look at there gear instead of flatly equip the highest ilvl, hit points were a must, remember that? spirit too had to be balanced. there was another stat i dont remember the name something to do with hit percent.

    Im not saying it was hard, it wasnt once you knew (divert to the comment about a child learning the time)

    No everyone didnt use the same, i remember ulduar there were 3 rogues in the raid with different builds, dont remember exactly why, something about fan of knives interupt? my memory is vague.

    "this was not a matter of "omg so hard plox nerf" if thats the case then why not buff the abilities for the said classes? you have seen the hotfix's adjusting this so more chance frop, less chance drop, buffing/nerfing the abilities for certain classes, if it was only certain classes that were struggling then why not buff them?

    I can only speak of 1 example but there was a player in my guild same class less gear telling me not to bother going its impossible and "broken" like you claim, yes it was hard but i did it with my experience gained from previous expansions of looking in my spellbook and thinking deeper than my rotation and what ilvl gear i have.

    When i told him what i did he was like "your a genius" am i though? really? i dont think so, im just someone that used to play at a time where looking around was more part of the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by oldgeezer View Post
    1) Terrible blog post

    2) What free gearing? I'd like a free 220 set, how do I get that? That'd be great!
    you want a free 220 set? buy an arena boost for 1800 in 3s then farm in 2s the what is it now, 4000 conq cap? theres your free 220 set.
    Last edited by dadoodoo; 2021-01-19 at 03:17 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    You want a free 220 set? buy an arena boost for 1800 in 3s then farm in 2s the what is it now, 4000 conq cap? theres your free 220 set.
    That doesn't sound like free gear to me.

    Let me explain. I'm a really bad player. You wouldn't want me in your pug.

    And indeed, I don't do any group content, aside from the very occasional LFR. I'm currently sitting at 185, give or take, on my main, mostly from anima-upgraded covenant gear. And that's fine. It's completely adequate for the content I do (i.e basically world content for 20 or 30 minutes of an evening). To get above that requires effort on my part, and I'm not prepared to put that effort in. But I'm not complaining about it. Are the bad players getting geared? Is that what you're saying?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    *snip*

    Ever wondered how someone "that bad" (as bad as i was) is in your level key? this post is your answer.
    Thanks for the useless 'back in my day' blog. We definitely don't have enough of those around here.
    My greatest fear is that one day, my MMO-Champion ignore list will run out of space.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    .
    So, what is your solution?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    you want a free 220 set? buy an arena boost for 1800 in 3s then farm in 2s the what is it now, 4000 conq cap? theres your free 220 set.
    That isn't 'FREE'... But you already know that.

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  9. #9
    Oh look, someone created a throwaway account to regurgitate a few posts they read complaining about things and trying to get the casual vs hardcore groups to fight again

  10. #10
    Lol was this post on "pending" status for the last 8 to 12 years?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Benitora View Post
    Do PVP and ignore PVE basically.
    Or just do +10 for weekly chest.
    So we get free gear by earning it?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    So, what is your solution?

    - - - Updated - - -



    That isn't 'FREE'... But you already know that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seranthor View Post
    So, what is your solution?
    My solution would of been to of kept taughast hard overall, balanced the classes that needed balancing to make it at least doable, someone claimed they took the decision to nerf it as a whole as certain classes it was impossible and thats why they nerfed it. this isnt true as they tweak class abilities in there all the time, they took the decision to nerf it as a whole due to the majority of the community struggling.

    My idea would be if its doable for 25% percent of the community thats a good number, as time went on that number would increase the more the general community looked in there spellbook, went to youtube to watch guides how people did of there class did it "ahhhhhh so thats how its done, makes sense" instead of turning up, pressing the rotation and collecting for free.

    Something that allows the solo player to also grow and learn, a way to increase there skills and knowledge about there class.

    Like there is a list of number of bosses completed a list of number of times a level floor is complete, a way for guild recruiters to see who is trying and who isnt because those people who are trying but are bad need a bit of guidance thats all, how can they be guided if they arent being seen through all the people who dont care but are doing the same content?

    I needed guidance, no way that player would of spotted me and offered help in the current expansion because i would just look like everyone else.

  13. #13
    If things like LFR and queued heroic dungeons weren't around, I wouldn't really have much of a game.

    Not all of us are lucky enough to draw attention to talent-seeking hardcore raiders, not all of us were lucky enough to have that dude noticing our potential and inviting us to a raid group. I will fully admit that I've never been a spectacular player; I struggle with a lot in this game and have never been a parse-destroyer. I still make mistakes in dungeons every so often. Never had many friends in the game either.

    It seems like players like the OP want us to return to the days of TBC where folks like me had nothing but farming elementals and daily quests, where we were supposed to "know our place" and be happy with that.

  14. #14
    Id' like to know where is the magical WoW land that allows you to get good gear for free. Because if you have to farm 4000 conquest to get a 220 set in three months (one piece of loot every week), it's definitely not free and takes a lot of time, effort and commitment. BfA threw good stuff at you (even heroic stuff level in the callings). Shadowlands definitely does not. Raid loot is scarce, M+ loot is scarce aswell.

    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    you want a free 220 set? buy an arena boost for 1800 in 3s then farm in 2s the what is it now, 4000 conq cap? theres your free 220 set.
    So your definition of "free" is to buy something? That's a weird definition.
    Last edited by Barzotti; 2021-01-19 at 09:29 AM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benitora View Post
    Do PVP and ignore PVE basically.
    Or just do +10 for weekly chest.
    Sorry, how is that free? This one of those "I raid, my way is more time consuming and / or harder" things?

  16. #16
    The only thing i can agree with the OP on is that pvp rewards too much gear.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    I remember back in tbc when i was a clueless fury warrior running round with double avool zul of jin thinking i was doing ok (agi daggers)

    This was the only source of what i thought was me getting better (buying boes) so a guild recruitment officer inspected me he could see that i was putting in a ton of effort (even though it was in the wrong area and i was clearly clueless)

    This person spotted i was trying and put me on the right path by taking me to the training dummies and recount, we had a long chat, i joined his raid guild once he seen i was listening to what he was saying and there was immidiate improvement in my output, just because i was clueless about what was what didnt mean i was actually dumb, he could see that i just needed pointing in the right areas.
    Pretty clever of them to take you to the training dummies during TBC when they weren't added until WotLK.


    My point is, by giving everyone such a free and easy way to see the content, isnt it taking away that learning curve? if your bad, then your bad whether you see it or not, the issue with this game is bad players arent as easy to spot as i was back then, completely off the track, even someone as clueless as i was back then would be running round in 205 minimum right now, everyone who puts a bit of effort in is at least 205 when you consider covenent gear and battleground gear is 197.
    Back in TBC anyone putting in the minimum amount of effort would either be running 10 arena matches a week (win or lose doesn't matter really) to get their wellfare epics and supplementing it with badge gear, especially later in the expansion when you could get a Paladin or coupe of 'locks or mages to AoE blast through a heroic dungeon. Believe it or not back then you could get friends or associates to boost you through dungeons and raids too.

  18. #18
    The only problem in your train of thought is that what is truly free for one reason or another is INFORMATION. That TBC story of yours is touching, but the reality of it is that today there is so much stuff written and freely available about it online, that you truly ARE dumb if you still fail that kind of a retardcheck. With more information, things become easier, to the point where "just get 1800 and farm conquest" is seen as free.

  19. #19
    The sad part is that I just want less stats because it's not a choice due to me siming stuff. I rather have the same stats on everything and not needing to sim (almost anyway, not really but I dislike siming).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    The only problem in your train of thought is that what is truly free for one reason or another is INFORMATION. That TBC story of yours is touching, but the reality of it is that today there is so much stuff written and freely available about it online, that you truly ARE dumb if you still fail that kind of a retardcheck. With more information, things become easier, to the point where "just get 1800 and farm conquest" is seen as free.
    Good point. Nerf information!
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dadoodoo View Post
    My point is, by giving everyone such a free and easy way to see the content, isnt it taking away that learning curve?
    I don't understand your point. You say that there is a problem because the game is hard to learn, and the solution you propose is to make it harder and more obscure?

    The learning curve is there if you don't skip it. In your own example, the problem was not that you got free loot, the problem was that you got carried, thus skipping the learning curve.

    While there is a problem with the learning curve in WoW, I'd say it's mostly in the sense that the leveling content does not prepare new players in any way for endgame content. But as far as endgame goes, ultimately it's more of a social issue than a game systems issue. Again, in your own example, it wasn't the game being complex that triggered you getting better - it was another person actually taking the time to help you improve.

    The difference between the two situations was not the game or gear systems. The difference was in the first one the person took the time to help you improve before even trying to let you join their runs. In the second they just boosted you (either unknowingly, or hoping you would take the chance to learn and improve by yourself). Either situation could happen in either state of the game - the difference was human.
    Last edited by Kolvarg; 2021-01-19 at 10:47 AM.

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