1. #1

    Is anyone stacking crit for PvP?

    I feel like crit is lowkey the best stat after verst and haste since they boosted the bonus to %200.One soulbind tree gives you %5 crit when you are surrounded by 5 or more people .I was doing my campaign quest and it gave me a %20 crit bonus which put me at %26 and it was insane how much I was critting. Are any top warriors stacking crit ? I think over %10 haste is overrated for arms in PvP .Would love to hear some insight .
    Last edited by Thracian; 2021-01-19 at 09:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Thracian View Post
    I feel like crit is lowkey the best stat after verst and haste since they boosted the bonus to %200.One soulbind tree gives you %5 crit when you are surrounded by 5 or more people .I was doing my campaign quest and it gave me a %20 crit bonus which put me at %26 and it was insane how much I was critting. Are any top warriors stacking crit ? I think over %10 haste is overrated for arms in PvP .Would love to hear some insight .
    https://www.pvpleaderboard.com/pvp/f...ing=2400#stats

    The max Crit any Arms Warrior above 2400 in 3s is 640, so nope. Nobody is stacking it.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Soisoisoi View Post

    The max Crit any Arms Warrior above 2400 in 3s is 640, so nope. Nobody is stacking it.
    640 ? Thats pretty high. I have a total of 33 crit which puts me at %6. I'm assuming 600s would put me in 15-20 range? I checked the ladders I only saw about 3-4 wars above %10 crit in the top 200. I saw one warrior at %23 while having %11 verst and surprisingly he's ranked 411 w that much verst.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Thracian View Post
    640 ? Thats pretty high. I have a total of 33 crit which puts me at %6. I'm assuming 600s would put me in 15-20 range? I checked the ladders I only saw about 3-4 wars above %10 crit in the top 200. I saw one warrior at %23 while having %11 verst and surprisingly he's ranked 411 w that much verst.
    The highest - which could be a single Warrior - has 640. The average is 131 Crit for the rest of them, with the lowest being 0. Overall, most are stacking Verse>Haste gear.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Thracian View Post
    I feel like crit is lowkey the best stat after verst and haste since they boosted the bonus to %200.One soulbind tree gives you %5 crit when you are surrounded by 5 or more people .I was doing my campaign quest and it gave me a %20 crit bonus which put me at %26 and it was insane how much I was critting. Are any top warriors stacking crit ? I think over %10 haste is overrated for arms in PvP .Would love to hear some insight .
    Are u sure crit.is 2.0? It was raised from 1.5 to 1.75 in shadowlands i thought. Could you provide a link? I could be wrong

  6. #6
    Yes crit is a lot better than people think. But still, because Versa and Haste are better you won't have a lot.

    Versa > Haste > Crit is the way to go in my opinion.

  7. #7
    The Lightbringer Strawberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Sweden/Yugoslavia
    Posts
    3,303
    I got like 8% crit on my pvp geared warrior (212 ilvl).
    I, like many others go for versatility and haste if I can, otherwise crit.
    But I've been thinking the same thing. Critting big is more fun. Burst puts a lot of pressure on the enemy and nothing like doing a couple crits in a row to make that healer crap his pants.

    But haste helps with global CD (last time i checked) and channeled skills like bladestorm.
    I might go crit build next season.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Grakao's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Skyhold
    Posts
    55
    Crit was buffed from 150% to 175% in Shadowlands, not 200%.

    In PvP you'll want to stack as much versatility and haste as possible, leaving very little for a third stat.

    Regardless, mastery is a better option than crit for PvP as a third stat as it boosts your overall damage while removing the RNG factor from the equation.

  9. #9
    The randomness from crit is a good thing as it translates into some meaty burst because damage spikes more. Randomly chaining 10k Mortal Strike into a 13k Execute proc from Sudden Death leads to people having to use defensives. A random big crit can brings people sub 35% HP which translates into a LOT more pressure and damage than the low constant amount mastery brings.

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Grakao's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Skyhold
    Posts
    55
    In rated arenas it is better to have as much control over your damage as possible. There is a reason the top players dont favor crit, as the amount gained is negligible to make an impact, and if you prioritize it over versa and haste its just meme.

    Additionally, mastery gives you more damage per point compared to crit, so there's that.
    Last edited by Grakao; 2021-01-22 at 12:02 AM.

  11. #11
    It honestly doesn't really matter as long as you put as much as possible into versatility.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Strawberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Sweden/Yugoslavia
    Posts
    3,303
    Even so you get nuked into oblivion, regardless of versatility, lol.
    Currently sitting at 27% (w/o trinket set bonus which is for damage anyway, not defense), and I'm not even mad how fast I die.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    I got like 8% crit on my pvp geared warrior (212 ilvl).
    I, like many others go for versatility and haste if I can, otherwise crit.
    But I've been thinking the same thing. Critting big is more fun. Burst puts a lot of pressure on the enemy and nothing like doing a couple crits in a row to make that healer crap his pants.

    But haste helps with global CD (last time i checked) and channeled skills like bladestorm.
    I might go crit build next season.
    Exactly,when im doing rbgs and get a huge sudden death or MS crit the enemy panics and almost dies,you see a huge chunk of hp just disappear. Its too late for me to stack crit this season im already 223 ilvl.I stacked mastery for 3rd stat.Gonna try crit next season.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    In rated arenas it is better to have as much control over your damage as possible. There is a reason the top players dont favor crit, as the amount gained is negligible to make an impact, and if you prioritize it over versa and haste its just meme.

    Additionally, mastery gives you more damage per point compared to crit, so there's that.
    And nowadays top players favor crit over mastery, some even favor crit over Haste. Who would have thought that randomly critting for 18k would have been good?

    The player that actually likes your damage being not RNG and smooth is actually the enemy healer.

  15. #15
    Field Marshal Grakao's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Skyhold
    Posts
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotural View Post
    And nowadays top players favor crit over mastery, some even favor crit over Haste. Who would have thought that randomly critting for 18k would have been good?

    The player that actually likes your damage being not RNG and smooth is actually the enemy healer.
    Why are you quoting a post for over a month ago?

    That post was made when Kyrian was the absolute BiS covenant (where mastery is better) and before people learned Venthyr scales very well with high ilvl. Plus, the meta has evolved from a burst-centered to pressure-centered (as most people have 40k hp now and most games go through dampening), and it favors Venthyr over Kyrian right now.

    With the current meta and gear levels crit is not a bad stat anymore, and it is quite good if you're venthyr with the Exploiter leggo. That still doesn't mean mastery is bad and we just have more choices now.

    And no, not all top players are favoring crit, and there are still a lot of kyrian players in the top 50 with mastery build.
    Source: https://murlok.io/warrior/arms/3v3
    Check the stat priority section, where mastery is still competitive among the top players.

    I also recommend you join the warrior discord community and educate yourself a bit more before jumping down to conclusions like that.

    []'s

  16. #16
    I quoted this post because nothing magically evolved with iLvL. Venthyr and Crit were already very good and even the best at dealing damage in PvE since the start of Shadowlands in 184 iLvL. It was absolutely clear that it was going to be good or best even in PvP, people simply took a long time to figure it out.

    I'm a Data Scientist specialised in video games and I figured that Orc Venthyr Sephuz was going to be strong right from the start. I crafted and upgraded Sephuz first on both my Warrior and my Disc Priest on the first week of the season when everyone was recommending legendaries like Signet, Unhinged (still a great option for Kyrian of course) and Crystalline Reflection / Penitent One on Disc. Nowadays people are recommending Sephuz on both when actually Sephuz was at its peak early in the season (80 for all secondaries is worth more when you have low level of stats than when you are fully geared).

    The thing is. First, class Discord are made up by 99% of players seeking answers who have no clue about the game and will repeat what everyone else is telling them. In many cases going to a class Discord will actually hurt your comprehension of the game because they are full of biased people and whenever someone will propose something new, dozen of people are going to tell him that it's stupid / non-meta while no one will be able to scientifically/statistically explain why it could be bad or good.
    Second, top players are exactly that : Top players. Not top theorycrafters. Even if most of them are decent at theorycrafting obviously because they understand the game greatly, they are no statisticians and their analysis will be lacking.

    The meta didn't changed, people's comprehension of the meta changed.

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Grakao's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Skyhold
    Posts
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotural View Post
    I quoted this post because nothing magically evolved with iLvL. Venthyr and Crit were already very good and even the best at dealing damage in PvE since the start of Shadowlands in 184 iLvL. It was absolutely clear that it was going to be good or best even in PvP, people simply took a long time to figure it out.
    Disagree completely. With higher health pools and high versa, the playstyle is way more different than the start of the season. Bar a few outliers and some random one shots, consistent pressure is way more important than burst damage right now because games are slower at the moment. At least in high rated games.

    Also, PvE damage means nothing in PvP, and Condemn is pretty lackluster with low ilvl in PvP.

    I'm a Data Scientist specialised in video games and I figured that Orc Venthyr Sephuz was going to be strong right from the start. I crafted and upgraded Sephuz first on both my Warrior and my Disc Priest on the first week of the season when everyone was recommending legendaries like Signet, Unhinged (still a great option for Kyrian of course) and Crystalline Reflection / Penitent One on Disc. Nowadays people are recommending Sephuz on both when actually Sephuz was at its peak early in the season (80 for all secondaries is worth more when you have low level of stats than when you are fully geared).
    If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you avoid the "I'm a [insert a credential nobody cares about here] therefore my assessment is accurate" kind of answer.

    And no, no one is recommending Sephuz as a primary lego on Warriors. It is really good if you're Orc vs some setup comps and that's it. And it was always recommended as a second or third option after your main one.

    Most venthyr warriors go either Unhinged or Exploiter, while Kyrian mostly go for Unhinged. Hell, I'd say even Misshapen Mirror takes priority over Sephuz to help counter some damage/cc from caster cleaves, which are very abundant in the ladder.

    I find funny you pull that 'IM DATA SCIENTISTZ' out of nowhere after saying in an earlier post shit like "imo critz is gud cuz me like 14k critz". And after saying crap like "the only one that likes smooth damage is your enemy healer" while consistent damage is precisely what works in competitive arena. But, if you're stuck in the 1500's I guess random bursts might work for you.

    Also, I never said smooth. I said consistent. Don't twist my words.

    The thing is. First, class Discord are made up by 99% of players seeking answers who have no clue about the game and will repeat what everyone else is telling them. In many cases going to a class Discord will actually hurt your comprehension of the game because they are full of biased people and whenever someone will propose something new, dozen of people are going to tell him that it's stupid / non-meta while no one will be able to scientifically/statistically explain why it could be bad or good.
    Second, top players are exactly that : Top players. Not top theorycrafters. Even if most of them are decent at theorycrafting obviously because they understand the game greatly, they are no statisticians and their analysis will be lacking.
    Partially agree. While there are lots of "GUYZ UNHINGED OR EXPLOITER HELP" every fucking day, there are a lot of useful information in the stickies and a decent amount of knowledgeable people giving solid advice.

    Also, you don't have to be a statistician or mathematician to figure out what works and what doesn't. No offense, but the credential argument just makes you look stupid.

    The meta didn't changed, people's comprehension of the meta changed.
    Semantics. The meta evolves as people's comprehension and experience grow over time. Same shit at the end of the day.
    Last edited by Grakao; Yesterday at 07:40 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    Disagree completely. With higher health pools and high versa, the playstyle is way more different than the start of the season. Bar a few outliers and some random one shots, consistent pressure is way more important than burst damage right now because games are slower at the moment. At least in high rated games.
    But this is factually wrong. Generally speaking, primary stats scale linearly with Stamina and everything being equals, Ilvl doesn't affect the pace of the game. You have 226 Ilvl and 40k HP, you deal X damage. You have 184 Ilvl and 27k hp, you deal 0.675 X damage. And that's it. I can assure you that if AWC games were set at 213, 200 or 184 Ilvl, it wouldn't change anything pace wise and would change barely anything balance wise if not nothing.

    Take a look at Mortal Strike and Condemn for example, and please, try to explain to me stats/maths wise that could justify it being bad low Ilvl and suddenly super good with good Ilvl.

    Mortal Strike : A vicious strike that deals (144% of Attack power) Physical damage and reduces the effectiveness of healing on the target by 50% for 10 sec.

    Condemn : Condemn a foe to suffer for their sins, causing up to [2.0 * (103.5% of Attack power)] Shadow damage. Only usable on enemies who are above 80% health or below 20% health.

    As you can see, both spells scale linearly with Attack Power a.k.a. Strength. If you get 10% more Strength, both spells will deal 10% more damage, Condemn won't suddenly starts hitting for 27% more.

    And this is true for all classes and all specs. Especially since everyone is stacking Versatility in PvP. Sometimes in WoW some funky things can happens when people reach 35%+ Haste but this is definitely not something that is happening right now.

    The meta is slowing down solely because of the comprehension of the meta + nerfs to outliers. People were globalling themselves on Mindgames in the first weeks of the season, not respecting Combustion enough, etc.

    Plus, if WoW history taught us something, it is that the contrary is generally true. Secondaries stats tend to make player damage snowball out of control like how we started in MoP with 40% passive resilience and ended up with 72% after an increase every patch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    Also, PvE damage means nothing in PvP
    If you speak about your DPS in general in PvP, it is wrong, but I assume you know that as it is basic knowledge.
    If you speak about PvE DPS optimisation in PvP, you are still wrong but not as much.

    Generally speaking, there is nothing stat wise that makes it so optimising your damage in PvE won't result in you doing more damage in PvP. Sometimes there are differences, the most obvious one being Versatility being the best stat in PvP thanks to the trinket set bonus. Other times, talents and abilities are specifically nerfed in PvP which change what is best. But looking at PvE simms will always provide some kind of insights, like Sephuz being actually uber good in single target damage : https://bloodmallet.com/chart/warrio...stingpatchwerk

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    , and Condemn is pretty lackluster with low ilvl in PvP.
    This is factually wrong. Really. All Warrior damage abilities scale linearly with Strength, Haste, Versatility, Crit and Mastery. You won't be able to contradict this. I mean you could argue that Condemn became stronger because Convoke, Sub and Fire got nerfed, etc but it's strictly impossible to argue that Condemn became stronger because we are 226 Ilvl. It was already chunking people in Ilvl 184.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    If you want to be taken seriously, I suggest you avoid the "I'm a [insert a credential nobody cares about here] therefore my assessment is accurate" kind of answer.
    Fair, yet people listen to streamers because they are streamers even when they are wrong and spread misinformation among the community so I guess it was worth a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    And no, no one is recommending Sephuz as a primary lego on Warriors. It is really good if you're Orc vs some setup comps and that's it. And it was always recommended as a second or third option after your main one.
    Even Magnusz is recommending it first on Orc nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    I find funny you pull that 'IM DATA SCIENTISTZ' out of nowhere after saying in an earlier post shit like "imo critz is gud cuz me like 14k critz". And after saying crap like "the only one that likes smooth damage is your enemy healer" while consistent damage is precisely what works in competitive arena. But, if you're stuck in the 1500's I guess random bursts might work for you.

    Also, I never said smooth. I said consistent. Don't twist my words.
    Yet Convoke got nerfed for Full Moon and Ret are getting nerfed on their Divine Toll next patch. Stupid inconsistent damage is more often good that you would think. Random 17k crit Condemn prevented Absterge from Saccing Pikaboo in a recent AWC game for example : https://youtu.be/_4d_-zBoTUI?t=180
    And my point still stands, the one who really likes your damage to be smooth and/or consistent is the enemy healer. Even big burst damage, when predictable, is easier to counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    Partially agree. While there are lots of "GUYZ UNHINGED OR EXPLOITER HELP" every fucking day, there are a lot of useful information in the stickies and a decent amount of knowledgeable people giving solid advice.

    Also, you don't have to be a statistician or mathematician to figure out what works and what doesn't. No offense, but the credential argument just makes you look stupid.
    No offense taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakao View Post
    Semantics. The meta evolves as people's comprehension and experience grow over time. Same shit at the end of the day
    True, but my point still stands : Condemn and crit were already strong at the start of the season (the main reason simply being that Warriors are super strong).

  19. #19
    Immortal Raugnaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Frogspoison#1419 Battletag
    Posts
    7,000
    Quote Originally Posted by Gotural View Post
    This is factually wrong. Really. All Warrior damage abilities scale linearly with Strength, Haste, Versatility, Crit and Mastery. You won't be able to contradict this. I mean you could argue that Condemn became stronger because Convoke, Sub and Fire got nerfed, etc but it's strictly impossible to argue that Condemn became stronger because we are 226 Ilvl. It was already chunking people in Ilvl 184.
    I would like to point out that not all Warrior damage abilities scan linearly with all stats, mainly Haste/Crit. If I recall correctly, Bladestorm's damage does not scale with Haste unless you take Anger Management - It's cooldown is not affected by Haste, and it doesn't gain additional damage nor ticks with Haste. It simply ticks faster. Thus, as Haste goes up, Bladestorm's overall contribution to damage will go down. Funnily enough, the tooltip for Bladestorm isn't accurate when it comes to haste either, and will, in fact, show a decrease in Bladestorms damage done as you acquire more haste, even though Bladestorm's actual damage done doesn't change.

    Additionally..

    Dragon Roar does not scale with Haste at all, but scales 50% better with Crit compared to other abilities.
    Siegebreaker and Colossal Smash/Warbringer do not scale directly with Haste, and they indirectly scale with breakpoints - Haste only has value with these abilities when you get enough to fit another ability inside their damage window. Note: Smash/Warbringer do scale with Haste if you take up Anger Management.
    Ravager does not scale with Haste at all, it only deals it's damage faster.

    That's just the offensive abilities.

    Keep in mind that defensively, as we saw in BfA with Versatility, Versatility is a stat that becomes better the more you have of it defensively. Hopefully we won't reach the levels of Versatility possible in BfA (In which certain builds could obtain brief immunity with Versa stacking until procs ended, as demonstrated by Rextroy), but since this is a PvP oriented thread, Versatility is not just the best stat because of the trinket bonus - Even without that bonus, Versatility would still have been the best stat due to it's other bonuses for PvP purposes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    I would like to point out that not all Warrior damage abilities scan linearly with all stats, mainly Haste/Crit. If I recall correctly, Bladestorm's damage does not scale with Haste unless you take Anger Management - It's cooldown is not affected by Haste, and it doesn't gain additional damage nor ticks with Haste. It simply ticks faster. Thus, as Haste goes up, Bladestorm's overall contribution to damage will go down. Funnily enough, the tooltip for Bladestorm isn't accurate when it comes to haste either, and will, in fact, show a decrease in Bladestorms damage done as you acquire more haste, even though Bladestorm's actual damage done doesn't change.

    Additionally..

    Dragon Roar does not scale with Haste at all, but scales 50% better with Crit compared to other abilities.
    Siegebreaker and Colossal Smash/Warbringer do not scale directly with Haste, and they indirectly scale with breakpoints - Haste only has value with these abilities when you get enough to fit another ability inside their damage window. Note: Smash/Warbringer do scale with Haste if you take up Anger Management.
    Ravager does not scale with Haste at all, it only deals it's damage faster.

    That's just the offensive abilities.
    Definitely true. We could also say that Ignore Pain scales indirectly with Crit as it gives more rage generation and thus gives the Warrior more resources to funnel into it without being starved for something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raugnaut View Post
    Keep in mind that defensively, as we saw in BfA with Versatility, Versatility is a stat that becomes better the more you have of it defensively. Hopefully we won't reach the levels of Versatility possible in BfA (In which certain builds could obtain brief immunity with Versa stacking until procs ended, as demonstrated by Rextroy), but since this is a PvP oriented thread, Versatility is not just the best stat because of the trinket bonus - Even without that bonus, Versatility would still have been the best stat due to it's other bonuses for PvP purposes.
    That's not sure, I guess Blizzard implemented the set bonus from trinkets for a reason, especially since they buffed it from 20% to 40% late in the beta. For many classes Versa is the worst stat from a DPS standpoint and thus maybe the defensive benefit wasn't enough.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •