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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by fatgunn View Post
    Dude, when every single thing is a problem to you people are definitely gonna tell you to start sucking it up sometimes. What you said earlier about wanting flying in the Maw would just be avoiding the entire quest. At that point why even have a quest? From the way you've put it, you just wanna talk to an npc and then receive a reward. WoW is a game primarily designed around combat, hence the joke about the most basic quests being "Go kill those bears and bring me 10 bear asses." You've complained about the terrain being hard to navigate in other threads too. So if Blizz isn't allowed to design a quest with enemies that might kill you or terrain that might be difficult to navigate what do you want? A flat plain with loot boxes?
    Flying isn't needed, if content has right design. But there are things, like putting elites into quests, that aren't marked as group quests and many other cases of overtuned design. This causes some sort of dead loop, because Blizzard remove flying exactly to push some bad design, that requires flying to be bypassed, i.e. making flying mandatory to enjoy this game. And then they wonder, why players refuse to play game without flying.

    But I don't think, that this thread is about all this problems. It's common practice, when irrelevant things are discussed instead of thread's main topic. Why I don't play this game without certain nerfs - are my personal reasons. Every player has his personal reasons to do it too. This thread is about simple fact, that Blizzard push wrong design, then wonder, why players refuse to play game with such design and search for way to fix this "symptom", instead of curing real "disease". This game isn't fun. Players play it, because they're forced to. I call it concept of "Gun barrel at back of head" playing. For example players wouldn't go to Maw, if it wouldn't be mandatory.

    And funny thing, is that overall I don't ask for too much. It's simple changes and solo fact, that Blizzard refuse to implement them, tells everything about them being so stubborn and orthodoxal. Just 2 changes and game would be bearable for me to continue playing it till 9.1. Optional Maw and may be speeding up 50-60 leveling a little bit to eliminate level-gates. I.e. if leveling would be just 20% faster, players would have enough exp from story quest not to constantly hit level gates. There are other problems, but they're bearable.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Flying isn't needed, if content has right design. But there are things, like putting elites into quests, that aren't marked as group quests and many other cases of overtuned design. This causes some sort of dead loop, because Blizzard remove flying exactly to push some bad design, that requires flying to be bypassed, i.e. making flying mandatory to enjoy this game. And then they wonder, why players refuse to play game without flying.
    There's nothing wrong with the quest's design. It's just a quest that happens to have elites. Just because you are unable or unwilling to deal with them doesn't make it a bad design.

  3. #43
    I havent had this much fun in ages. and without renown cathup, switching covenant would just make me downright quit the game. I swapped form Enhance to Elemental this week, from Venthyr to Necrolord. I spend 3 hours last night to get to renown 11. I look forward to getting home from work and get more renown done. if I was limited to 3 renowns a week I would either never swap covenant or play a spec that I, in the end, didnt really like (Enhancement) or play Elemental with a kit that, imo, doesnt really suit it. I think the catchup is great and it gives a certain aamount of freedom.

    also, when I leveled my prot pala alt, cathinc up on renown was great. I could get to "current" content relatively fast without eing overly punished.

    For now, this is my fav xpac in a lot of years. Probably since MoP.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fatgunn View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the quest's design. It's just a quest that happens to have elites. Just because you are unable or unwilling to deal with them doesn't make it a bad design.
    There is. If it's better to do quest in a group, then it should be marked as group quest. For example I can actually do explicit 3ppl and 5ppl group quests solo. But this quest is even harder, than them. And it isn't even marked as group one. But problem is - story quests should not be group ones. This is one of major problems with Wow's current design - when Blizzard try to implicitly push certain unpopular design on players. To push group content without marking it as group or to push PVP content without marking it as PVP.

  5. #45
    The Patient Chakah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Real reason: players unsub, because game isn't fun

    [snip]

    1) Is such World of Waitcraft game even worth playing?
    3) What is effective solution of this problem?
    4) May be Blizzard should stop gating "fun" from players and they'll keep playing this game and being subbed then?
    So, maybe your optimal way to play is to buy the expansion, and stay unsubbed until right before the next expansion launch and quickly run all the content? Kinda weird, but you do you.

    Remember WoW is intended to be at least partially a social experience - its something to do with friends or potential friends.

    You answers:
    1) For some people, yes. For everyone? No.
    3) Realize that the box price gets you 'content' and the sub price gets the experience. And be happy with that.
    4) If you could burn thru everything quickly, with no challenge or anticipation, would it still be 'fun' to you? Not for me.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    So, maybe your optimal way to play is to buy the expansion, and stay unsubbed until right before the next expansion launch and quickly run all the content? Kinda weird, but you do you.

    Remember WoW is intended to be at least partially a social experience - its something to do with friends or potential friends.

    You answers:
    1) For some people, yes. For everyone? No.
    3) Realize that the box price gets you 'content' and the sub price gets the experience. And be happy with that.
    4) If you could burn thru everything quickly, with no challenge or anticipation, would it still be 'fun' to you? Not for me.
    Overall in the past it was more optimal to return to game in last patch, because it usually fixes, what should be fixed, and nerfs, what should be nerfed. Or at least in x.2 patch, where flying usually returns. It's good compromise between this two. What I can say, it was good strategy in Legion. Only BFA was exception, where even later content was bad anyway, because Blizzard tried to keep it "challenging" within whole xpack's duration. And Blizzard realize, that playing that way is more optimal. That is one of the reasons, why borrowed power systems are implemented. They remove major xpack's content, when it ends. Otherwise players would keep playing old xpack instead of buying new one. And this can actually get to point, where players would get xpacks for free without even buying them.

    And the biggest question is - isn't it counter productive to FORCE players to play some "right" way, showing them, that no changes will be made, so they need to play right now or making them stay unsubbed and wait for some future changes, instead of just letting them to play the way, they prefer? May be in at least some part of content, because some players, including me, don't actually need that much content to be happy with it's amount. Leveling and story campaign would be perfectly enough.

  7. #47
    The Patient Chakah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    That is one of the reasons, why borrowed power systems are implemented. They remove major xpack's content, when it ends.
    Borrowed power systems are not content - that must be the source of your confusion - those are the experience/grind part.
    The content is the dungeons, raids, quests, zones, mogs, etc. Those are very rarely removed.

    Go play thru Legion again after the AP(borrowed power) was removed - the 'content' of the story is still there: you can get your OP weapon(s), grow an awesome tree, visit an alien world and kill a death god.

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    because some players, including me, don't actually need that much content to be happy with it's amount. Leveling and story campaign would be perfectly enough.
    So, you want a WoW RPG, not a WoW MMO. Gotcha.
    Blizzard's story is 'fine', but not worth the sub, imo. You might be happier with a different game if you don't care for the MMO experience.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    Borrowed power systems are not content - that must be the source of your confusion - those are the experience/grind part.
    The content is the dungeons, raids, quests, zones, mogs, etc. Those are very rarely removed.

    Go play thru Legion again after the AP(borrowed power) was removed - the 'content' of the story is still there: you can get your OP weapon(s), grow an awesome tree, visit an alien world and kill a death god.
    Depends on player. When all progression is removed, I don't have motivation to play content. For example WOD has it's gear progression removed, i.e. gear progression ends after getting quest greens. And while this content was good back then, I no longer have motivation to do. Same with BFA for example. Corruptions are removed and this means, that there is no longer any motivation to do content. Dunno, how to explain it better. "Playing" with corruptions, i.e. getting, testing and using different corruption combinations - was actually part of content.

    Overall RPGs are about character customization and progression, that are part of their content. Imagine, that all gear and talents would be removed from Diablo. Would you play such game just for sake of playing?

  9. #49
    This thread amazes me. The OP is actually finding open world content and questing too hard. I never thought I would hear anyone say that. Apparently we need game modes that are easier than LFR xD

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    What Blizzard want: to make players play right here and right now, i.e. sub and play current content, not be unsubbed

    Catch-ups: players unsub, because they know, that they can resub at any moment later and catch up immediately - Blizzard are sad

    No catch-ups: players unsub, because they burn-out due to trying to keep up to "do it now or you'd fall behind forever" concept - Blizzard are sad

    Real reason: players unsub, because game isn't fun

    Example: In SL we have renown catch-ups. Waiting 2 months to complete Covenant campaign and another 2 months to get to renown cap - isn't fun. It would be much better to resub after 4 months and get everything non-gated. And it would be even better to resub when 9.1 will arrive and start working towards getting flying immediately. Or, if flying will be gated behind, let's say, 100th renown level - to wait for another X months and then get everything immediately.

    And it rises several major questions:
    1) Is such World of Waitcraft game even worth playing?
    2) Was BFAs "play right here and right now" no catch-up model effective or too many players unsubbed due to not being able to keep up to it?
    3) What is effective solution of this problem?
    4) May be Blizzard should stop gating "fun" from players and they'll keep playing this game and being subbed then?

    I mean, it's not catch-up vs no catch-up question, that causes this problem. It's lack of fun, that is caused by all that gating. So, if players play fun game and don't play unfun, then may be we should simply stop gating that fun from them? If players want flying - give them flying. If players want game to be easier - make it easier. Not entire game, but at least part of it. Why this concept of OPTIONAL casual/hardcore, easy/hard, comfortable/challenging content is so hard to understand, that we still don't have any solution of this problem after 16 years of development? Why it's so hard to understand, that trying to FORCE players to play certain content certain "intended" way - is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE?
    players unsub because game is not rewarding.

    removal TF was a grave mistake

    nerf of itlv of m+ was nail to the coffin

    nerf to raid drops cemented the failure

    revert all those mistake and people will return

  11. #51
    I didn't read a single "major" problem in this thread. Mostly some inconveniences and a fantasy of mass unsubbing of people thinking the game is not fun. There is no indication whatsoever that people are unsubbing en masse. Just because you don't like the direction they took with this expansion doesn't mean masses of people dislike it and are unsubbing.

    This whole thread reads like a "'minor things that annoy me in the game and might lead to me unsubbing' ... wait, that's not dramatic enough... how about... 'major problems that will lead to an exodus of players!' ...Yes, much better" thought process

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    players unsub because game is not rewarding.

    removal TF was a grave mistake

    nerf of itlv of m+ was nail to the coffin

    nerf to raid drops cemented the failure

    revert all those mistake and people will return
    This changes are part of getting away from "endless grind" concept and making loot meaningful again, as it was in the past, when item, dropped by boss, was real item, not bunch of RNG numbers. Blizzard shot to their foot, when they removed offspec gear at some point, that reduced amount of desired loot and some extra work to do, when main set of gear is completed. Overall it's step towards right direction. May be this changes are executed badly, I'm not sure, but I don't care anyway, because I don't do "low reward/effort ratio" content.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    players unsub because game is not rewarding.

    removal TF was a grave mistake

    nerf of itlv of m+ was nail to the coffin

    nerf to raid drops cemented the failure

    revert all those mistake and people will return
    My ilvl is 215 based on:

    - Doing +10-16 keys
    - Getting 220+ gear from my weekly chest since week one
    - Clearing the heroic raid 4-5 times.
    - Killing the first 3 bosses on mythic a few times

    The reward system is completely fine. 215 ilvl is more than enough compared to the content that I have done. With the BFA gearing system I would probably already have been close to ilvl 226 which is waaaaaay too much. Why should I be the same ilvl as an Echo/Limit raider when I have done nowhere near the same content? The gearing is way more balanced now compared to the content we are doing.

    The people crying about the reward system are simply just entitled children who have been spoiled by the extreme welfare gearing systems from Legion and BFA. These entitled children are now used to getting max level gear from doing mediocre content. So now that you cant get mythic level gear in the first 3 weeks you are whining that "the game is not reward".... Bullshit! The game is exactly as rewarding as it should be. The reward system gives you exactly what you deserve for the content that you do. Want better gear? Then you better get into a mythic raiding guild or start pushing your arena raiding. If you're not willing to do that then you don't deserve any of the best rewards. It's that simple.

    It's a good thing that these entitled people are leaving the game. We don't want them. Please don't return.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2021-01-21 at 09:09 AM.

  14. #54
    This thread is awful. And OP has to be trolling. BfA had tons of catch up. Legion had tons of catch up. SL will have catch up as well. If you're playing this game SOLELY for gear levels/increasing power YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG GAME. The gear levels and increasing power are tools to overcome challenges, achieving those ends is the end game. I'm ilvl 224 right now. I could get 2100 in RBGs and be a little over 226 probably. This end game is far from over for me. I'm only 6/10M and my io score of 1454 can and will definitely go up more. That's why I play this game. I care about "number go up" but it's my io and not my gear score or DPS number.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    My ilvl is 215 based on:

    - Doing +10-16 keys
    - Getting 220+ gear from my weekly chest since week one
    - Clearing the heroic raid 4-5 times.
    - Killing the first 3 bosses on mythic a few times

    The reward system is completely fine. 215 ilvl is more than enough compared to the content that I have done. With the BFA gearing system I would probably already have been close to ilvl 226 which is waaaaaay too much. Why should I be the same ilvl as an Echo/Limit raider when I have done nowhere near the same content? The gearing is way more balanced now compared to the content we are doing.

    The people crying about the reward system are simply just entitled children who have been spoiled by the extreme welfare gearing systems from Legion and BFA. These entitled children are now used to getting max level gear from doing mediocre content. So now that you cant get mythic level gear in the first 3 weeks you are whining that "the game is not reward".... Bullshit! The game is exactly as rewarding as it should be. The reward system gives you exactly what you deserve for the content that you do. Want better gear? Then you better get into a mythic raiding guild or start pushing your arena raiding. If you're not willing to do that then you don't deserve any of the best rewards. It's that simple.

    It's a good thing that these entitled people are leaving the game. We don't want them. Please don't return.
    Yeah, it's great idea, that rewards should be adequate for difficulty of content, but opposite should also be true. That's why hard story content is just awful idea. Yeah, may be it was reasonable, when initial idea back in WOD was to provide alternative way of progression via outdoor content and therefore Tanaan provided normal raid level of rewards. It was reasonable, that this rewards should have been "earned" somehow. But what rewards are provided by Covenant campaign? Several pieces of catch-up gear, nobody needs? Is it reasonable to "earn" this loot via doing hard content?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, it's great idea, that rewards should be adequate for difficulty of content, but opposite should also be true. That's why hard story content is just awful idea. Yeah, may be it was reasonable, when initial idea back in WOD was to provide alternative way of progression via outdoor content and therefore Tanaan provided normal raid level of rewards. It was reasonable, that this rewards should have been "earned" somehow. But what rewards are provided by Covenant campaign? Several pieces of catch-up gear, nobody needs? Is it reasonable to "earn" this loot via doing hard content?
    What hard story content are you talking about? Do you want 213 loot from doing your covenant campaign? Tbh you seem a bit bonkers to me when it comes to the difficulty of content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhiskers View Post
    And OP has to be trolling.
    Sadly he is not. He finds open world content difficult and wants raid loot from it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by holywhiskers View Post
    I'm ilvl 224 right now. I could get 2100 in RBGs and be a little over 226 probably. This end game is far from over for me. I'm only 6/10M and my io score of 1454 can and will definitely go up more. That's why I play this game. I care about "number go up" but it's my io and not my gear score or DPS number.
    Exactly. You're almost the same ilvl as the best players in the game and you have only killed 6 mythic bosses. What more do people expect. Why do people do heroic raiding and +10 keys and then expect to be 226 ilvl. I don't get it. Legion and BFA have completely spoiled peoples sense of gear balance. All this nonsense about "the game is not rewarding" is just straight up whining by entitled children.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    It's not a problem, a lot of things in life reward patience. Take any game you want to play. You can buy it right now for full price with all the bugs (for example Cyberpunk 2077) and have a less than ideal experience. Or you wait and get a GOTY edition with the majority of bugs fixed and more polish and save quite a lot of money. We pay extra for things being new, including all the bad design decisions the Devs have taken during development that they realize only when enough players complain about it. Granted, a MMO is basically time-limited content. If you start too late you will miss out on most of the things, you can go back an expansion but it won't be the intended experience and everything is gonna be too easy. Objectively MMOs are quite consumer unfriendly and "force" you to play in the present because if you wait too long they move on and the majority of past content is worthless.
    This makes little sense business wise in the long term though. You're constantly rendering your game useless while adding new things. The issue is not all of the new things will be as fun as the older stuff and new players will wanna experience the fun old stuff too.... There is a counter argument for every argument. It depends on the way one sees things at the moment one thinks of something only. You yourself might change how you see things in regards to this issue, maybe not today, but eventually you will.

    This is why the saying "never say never" exists.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2021-01-21 at 09:51 AM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    This makes little sense business wise in the long term though. You're constantly rendering your game useless while adding new things. The issue is not all of the new things will be as fun as the older stuff and new players will wanna experience the fun old stuff too.... There is a counter argument for every argument. It depends on the way one sees things at the moment one write/thinks of something only. You yourself might change how you see things in regards to this issue, maybe not today, but eventually you will.
    Well, WoW is a prime example that it makes perfect sense business wise. Don't you agree that WoW is a long-term success with this approach? Because of this approach, they are forcing many players to keep playing and keep buying expansions because otherwise they are gonna miss out. The feeling of missing out is a very strong pull to many people. I have no personal opinion on this matter, I tried to explain why borrowed power and expansion content "cut" is a thing, that's not my opinion just an explanation.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What hard story content are you talking about? Do you want 213 loot from doing your covenant campaign? Tbh you seem a bit bonkers to me when it comes to the difficulty of content.
    No, I want to say opposite. If content doesn't drop 213 loot, then it shouldn't be hard. Major problem with Blizzard - is that some systems have their pros and cons, Blizzard tend to scrap that systems via removing their pros, but leave cons in place due to some inertia or intentional design. Again, initially WQ system was intended to be alternative way of character progression. And as it was intended, that it should have been providing good rewards, it should also have had some sort of challenge. Problem is - this idea was scrapped. But Blizzard liked to push "challenge" so much, that they still try to do it. Problem is piece of story, 25 rep, 35 anima or obsoleted piece of gear - isn't reasonable reward for challenging content.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    What Blizzard want: to make players play right here and right now, i.e. sub and play current content, not be unsubbed

    Catch-ups: players unsub, because they know, that they can resub at any moment later and catch up immediately - Blizzard are sad

    No catch-ups: players unsub, because they burn-out due to trying to keep up to "do it now or you'd fall behind forever" concept - Blizzard are sad

    Real reason: players unsub, because game isn't fun

    Example: In SL we have renown catch-ups. Waiting 2 months to complete Covenant campaign and another 2 months to get to renown cap - isn't fun. It would be much better to resub after 4 months and get everything non-gated. And it would be even better to resub when 9.1 will arrive and start working towards getting flying immediately. Or, if flying will be gated behind, let's say, 100th renown level - to wait for another X months and then get everything immediately.

    And it rises several major questions:
    1) Is such World of Waitcraft game even worth playing?
    2) Was BFAs "play right here and right now" no catch-up model effective or too many players unsubbed due to not being able to keep up to it?
    3) What is effective solution of this problem?
    4) May be Blizzard should stop gating "fun" from players and they'll keep playing this game and being subbed then?

    I mean, it's not catch-up vs no catch-up question, that causes this problem. It's lack of fun, that is caused by all that gating. So, if players play fun game and don't play unfun, then may be we should simply stop gating that fun from them? If players want flying - give them flying. If players want game to be easier - make it easier. Not entire game, but at least part of it. Why this concept of OPTIONAL casual/hardcore, easy/hard, comfortable/challenging content is so hard to understand, that we still don't have any solution of this problem after 16 years of development? Why it's so hard to understand, that trying to FORCE players to play certain content certain "intended" way - is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE?
    agree to all of it.

    but in my opinion, in the end of the day, ppl unsub because of treadmill shit.

    if we would know the sub numbers, we could proof it, by simply looking at cata and mob (tbc and wotlk is not a good example since at this time wow was on its highest point of the „wow goes viral“ effect). cata and mop not had all that treadmill shit, existing since Legion (wod is out of the comparisson, cause of „lack of content“). therefore we could simply say: cata and mop had no treadmill, ppl stay subbed. Legion, BfA, SL have treadmill, ppl unsubbed. IF this is true and IF we would know the sub numbers.

    let me explain the treadmill thing with a few words:

    there are ppl (like me) playing that game since 15 years and are a type of ppl playing a mmorpg the classical way. these ppl do not want that treadmill shit, because they wanna play the „whole game“. for ppl like me, this means i wanna have time to play lots of alts, play pvp, collect stuff, do achievements, talk with guildies, play the AH game, do pet battles, etc. but with all that treadmill shit i no longer have time for all of this. i am so main character pve focused and have to do my daily or weekly shit, i not have enough time for all that other aspects. this makes the game unsub-able for me. even after 15 years.

    there are also ppl, that play at a specific point excessively and play not at all for a while. like playing wow a complete weekend 3 days full hardcore and not even login for 2 weeks (or just do 1-2 raid evenings with login-raid-logout). these ppl also do not like treadmill and timegating, because they can not play WHEN they wanna play. dailies here, weeklies there. this is not a good game design for such persons and they unsub.

    the third type of players are ppl that just wanna login, go competitive raiding, logout. these ppl do not wanna run dungeons that much, after 2-3 a week. these ppl do not wanna keep up with additional powers from covenant or azerite or whatever. these ppl are raid or die players. they wanna login, play competitive a raid with guldies and logout. 2-3 evenings a week, without any additional tasks. these ppl do not like treadmill game design.

    the only audience the treadmill concept targets to, are players that play solely 1 main character, do no or not much pvp (or any other various additional wow content besides PvE), login every day and play every day a lot. these ppl like the current design, cause they „have always something to do“. sadly this means that every „hop in hop out here and then“ casual player and the above 3 types of players are slowely driven away by that treadmill shit.

    and thats, just my personal opinion, whats driving a lot of ppl (even when hardcore or 15 years die hard players) away from the game and make them unsub.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-01-21 at 10:27 AM.

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