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  1. #321
    At first, I thought IO was okay. It was like a way for people to judge skill. I didn't use it because I was grinding low M+ but the concept was okay.

    Eventually, I got pretty good gear, was doing some M6s and had to start noticing it because people would be checking. So I studied it, how it worked, etc and it would be pretty frustrating doing a dungeon exclusively for IO and then having failed it when going into dungeons with pugs. Why am I playing WoW to care about a 3rd party's rating?

    Now, having grinded past that and into M11s, I can see why IO exists. Doing a dungeon with pugs can be a bit of a toss-up. The only indicator of skill we have is ilvl, which really isn't too good of an indicator, it's more a benchmark for if you can even do this. However, IO Score isn't very good either. People can get carried easily by guilds and I find myself having to check how many dungeons they've done in total to see their experience.

    Do I think it's great? No, and it promotes a lot of elitism as well, but is it useful? It's certainly more useful than ilvl.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Naturalis View Post
    However, IO Score isn't very good either. People can get carried easily by guilds
    People should stop making this argument, because it's just a bad one. Just because a boulder could hit my car doesn't mean a seatbelt isn't very good at protecting passengers.

    You will never get 100% security with any tool. There will always be people who got carried by a guild or bought a boost or bought a keystone master/CE raider account on ebay. That doesn't make the tool bad, though. We live in a world of chances. If you use rio then your chances of success in that dungeon are significantly higher than if you didn't use rio.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Naville View Post
    Greatly dependent of what key level you are doing.

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: tank.
    Hardest role on higher keys: dps.
    This is a joke, right? Correct is:

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: healer.
    Hardest role on higher keys: healer + tank.

    healer is the one carrying every key. healer has to correct every single mistake every dps and tank does. healer gets the blame if keys gets depleted. it is not fun being a healer in m+.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by mistmitpandas View Post
    This is a joke, right? Correct is:

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: healer.
    Hardest role on higher keys: healer + tank.

    healer is the one carrying every key. healer has to correct every single mistake every dps and tank does. healer gets the blame if keys gets depleted. it is not fun being a healer in m+.
    Every affix is healer affix. I am tank myself. I can see where playing melee is really hard but someone saying that playing range in m+ is harder than tanking and healing is lol. DPS life should not change besides having to cheese something what could one shot you if scaling is out of hand.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by mistmitpandas View Post
    This is a joke, right? Correct is:

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: healer.
    Hardest role on higher keys: healer + tank.

    healer is the one carrying every key. healer has to correct every single mistake every dps and tank does. healer gets the blame if keys gets depleted. it is not fun being a healer in m+.
    If the group is making "mistakes" they won't get through high keys, regardless of the healer. That is his point. The higher you go the more you are reliant on dps output and control, and healer becomes more of an additional dps. Healers can only really carry groups in low-mid keys.

    When pugging I personally care more about the r.io of the dps than the tank or healer, in my experience good dps is the surest way of getting a clean run. I play with a rogue and hunter so tank doesn't even need to be good, can just tell him to kite and threat stays glued to him. Healer shouldn't have to do much except deal with unavoidable damage and deal extra dps.
    Last edited by intenz; 2021-02-05 at 10:11 AM.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    Every affix is healer affix. I am tank myself. I can see where playing melee is really hard but someone saying that playing range in m+ is harder than tanking and healing is lol. DPS life should not change besides having to cheese something what could one shot you if scaling is out of hand.
    That is always what I hated about the design philosophy of m+. Every design which goes into "making it harder" is to load more stress and blame on the healer. I honestly dont know how it could be made better, but youre 100% correct to say that every affix is healer affix. The difficulty of higher keys and affixes just are off loaded on the healer basically.

    One mechanic could be what you said, if dps makes a mistake, he is just 1 shot, not get tons of dmg you have to heal, just 1 shot, no blame on the healer, but these mechanics for example should not be able to hit a healer. That would be fair. If the dps would always die and wipe the group, sort them out.
    Last edited by mistmitpandas; 2021-02-05 at 10:24 AM.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by mistmitpandas View Post
    This is a joke, right? Correct is:

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: healer.
    Hardest role on higher keys: healer + tank.

    healer is the one carrying every key. healer has to correct every single mistake every dps and tank does. healer gets the blame if keys gets depleted. it is not fun being a healer in m+.
    I'd say I broadly agree with this, but I'd add a final category which is 'really high' keys, at which point it's basically equal, and requires solid use of play + toolkit from everyone to get through, it's much more about group synergy and using the toolkits of every spec to their maximum. Personally, I've never been 'super' active in that level of M+ play, but I when I was maxing out at the end of Legion/in some of mid-BFA that was certainly the case.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilookfly View Post
    If io was removed ppl would just check your armory and then decline you instead.
    Clearly you're not aware of how IO works. In order for raider.io to rip the data, it has to be public on the armory and as long as it's public on the armory any form of io style tracking can be achieved. So the only way for io to be removed is for the armory to not support a leaderboard, meaning someone couldn't "just check your armory".
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistmitpandas View Post
    This is a joke, right? Correct is:

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: healer.
    Hardest role on higher keys: healer + tank.

    healer is the one carrying every key. healer has to correct every single mistake every dps and tank does. healer gets the blame if keys gets depleted. it is not fun being a healer in m+.
    I'm inclined to agree with the OP, I've been finding healing at 15/16 to be easier than any time previously and the pride mana restoration really allows you to spend mana aggressively. Healing becomes easier when you're surrounded by better players who make fewer mistakes, hit their interrupts, tanks know what they need to kite etc.

    At higher keys a lot of mechanics tend to one shot so there isn't even the possibility for the healer to carry. The projectile on the 2nd boss in spires for example, if a dps gets hit on a high key without a defensive then they're dead with nobody to blame but themselves. On a +10 the dps will survive on low health and there's healing pressure to top them up before they get hit again which is much more stressful.

  10. #330
    Nothing more than a modern day Gearscore tbh - trash.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by mistmitpandas View Post
    This is a joke, right? Correct is:

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: healer.
    Hardest role on higher keys: healer + tank.

    healer is the one carrying every key. healer has to correct every single mistake every dps and tank does. healer gets the blame if keys gets depleted. it is not fun being a healer in m+.
    try timing high keys with too low dps. DPS is fairly easy in low to mid keys, but when you get to the higher ones you need to be able to pump or you won't time it even with no deaths or mistakes. The better the DPS the more you can fuck up during the run and still time it.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with the OP, I've been finding healing at 15/16 to be easier than any time previously and the pride mana restoration really allows you to spend mana aggressively. Healing becomes easier when you're surrounded by better players who make fewer mistakes, hit their interrupts, tanks know what they need to kite etc.

    At higher keys a lot of mechanics tend to one shot so there isn't even the possibility for the healer to carry. The projectile on the 2nd boss in spires for example, if a dps gets hit on a high key without a defensive then they're dead with nobody to blame but themselves. On a +10 the dps will survive on low health and there's healing pressure to top them up before they get hit again which is much more stressful.
    Jizuz that SoA boss is one of the 3-4 I really hate as healer, projectiles are just too many and they run too fast.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by MatPandaZ View Post
    try timing high keys with too low dps. DPS is fairly easy in low to mid keys, but when you get to the higher ones you need to be able to pump or you won't time it even with no deaths or mistakes. The better the DPS the more you can fuck up during the run and still time it.
    Exactly. Good dps can carry a bad tank and healer, especially true of melees with lots of lockdown like outlaw. Good tanks and healers can't carry dps. Talking about 15s and higher. Tanks and healers who think they are gods gift to pve really get on my nerves.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    Exactly. Good dps can carry a bad tank and healer, especially true of melees with lots of lockdown like outlaw. Good tanks and healers can't carry dps. Talking about 15s and higher. Tanks and healers who think they are gods gift to pve really get on my nerves.
    Normally play dps. Healing a +5 (lol) mists on my alt druid. No one dying, tank doing everything correctly. Dps are complete trash. Takes about 2-3 mins to kill those 4-5 mob packs in the maze. Dps aren't interrupting the tenders. Doing 2k aoe dps. Finally get thru it, onto the slugs. Tank gets the first cast of the stag horn. No one gets the other. Dps getting yeeted left and right from the aoe swirlies. Failed key by 3 mins lol.

    Have never felt the importance of good dpsers cause I'm usually covering that. Learned a lesson im more valuable than I thought

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Nargrom View Post
    I want to start by saying that given this is a hot topic humor me and read what i want to say before you reply please. Thank you.

    Now the main topic. Ever since R.IO became a thing, it is noticed that Pugs have high requirements and expectetions from the people that sign in their groups.
    This results in many players mostly on the casual spectrum to feel frustrated and find R.IO unjust, unrealistic, a tool that feeds elitism and so on.

    I started pushing keys in BfA mostly and that was after Season 2 where player power was already high and pushing into 15s - while it required effort - was a lot easier to achieve than the starting season of an expansion like we are now, where power is still somewhat limited and you can see that difficulty scaling up from +13 to a +14...

    My big question to the forum is, are you really annoyed by R.IO or is this just a reaction to being declined in keys?

    This season i had to work my ass off in m+ because most of my premade group plays on different hours than me. That meant for me that i had to work my way up the ladder. I main a Resto Shaman and when the season started i did some low keys with the guild to prepare for raiding and that gave me about 500 r.io. The guild mates werent really interested in pushing at the time, so this meant that i had to pug keys. As a Resto Shaman ( which i believe is a ''meta'' class for this season or flavor of the month ) i was signing up in over 30 keys to get invited eventually into one and thats on the 500-600 r.io scale.

    Eventually after lots of pugging and lots of failing, i managed to climp on the ~750 r.io scale, that meant most of the dgs was at +8 and +9. At that point a friend of similar to mine r.io decides to join me ( Guardian Druid ) so we finally start pushing 10s and above. So we start making our own groups, doing our research on proper pulling paths, where he might need most of my healing and etc, basically making sure that the tank/healer part of a pug is completely covered with minimal room for error - cause there is always room for error in m+ no matter how good you are. This meant that we had to pug 3 dps.

    My critirea for a dps in the pug world was going to be their experience first and then their rio. I would recruit people within my rio range but with experience (aka timed runs ) on par with mine. You see one can have high rio if you do targeted pushes on a dungeon that is ur lowest to bring it on par with the rest of your high keys. This results in high rio only 6-8 timed runs. That for me is not good enough, the guy that had such an rio/experience ratio, might very well be awesome but i dont know that in the pug world, i have to make a decision based on the facts that i have in front of me. On the +5-9 part of the R.io ladder i have over 30 timed runs, why would i want someone to dps for me with 1/3 of the experience?

    So applying this critirea, and having me and my friend tank being premade with in 2 weeks we boosted our R.io from ~750 to a little over 1000, having timed all dungeons in +13 and yesterday we managed to complete our first +14. Pug players within our R.io range and with experience on par with ours almost never fucked up and we rarely depleted keys and if we did was for 1-2min over timer.

    So dear anti-R.io player, do you think it is unfair that you are not selected for a key? Have you done the work your self? Have you put in hours into the pug world? Have climbed the R.io ladder step by step? Or do you expect to join 900rio groups with 500rio or 1.1k groups with 900 rio?
    Since this thread is still going strong, i wanted to provide some update and some additional information, since there is a massive number of different opinions in here.

    Again this my personal experience, doesnt mean it works out like this for everyone.

    So two weeks after the creation of this thread i find myself at 1313 R.IO and my friend the Guardian Druid at 1200. We are now well into the 15s, actively farming them, and we near on KSM. The same method of group forming still applies and still is effective, but now we have to be even more selective. Depending on the affixes certain classes benefit us more than others like for example on necrotic week we prefer boomkin with treants over - say - an unholy dk or a mage and it is a must for the dps we recruit have to have high enough dps to reflect their ilvl since 15s on a tyranical week are a dps and time check for us.

    It has been noticed that after entering the 15s ladder, knowledge of tacs from players is increased and we dont have to explain stuff any more, and the skill between the players that we recruited for 14s and the ones we have for 15s is totally unmatched, there is a lot more skilled involved in the higher r.io players. Again this is my experience and what i have noticed in a pool of 50 plus timed keys and as many if not more depleted ones in the combined ladders of 10-14 and 15-19 so far.

    The overall process has been painful in the pug world, it has taken me over 1 month of daily key farm to go from 750 to 1300 r.io score. It is a process that requires consistency and patience. Still recommend keys with friends or guildies.

    I have seen some replies regarding who carries who in high keys. If your group is functional, you work as a team, your tank does his job, the healer his and dps theirs.

    The skill of each role complements the others. If a tank is skilled and doesnt take much dmg and keeps aggro, then the dps can dps more and the healer will have to heal less and contribute to the dps as well. Same applies for the dps, if the dps is high then things die faster and the tank can move faster and the healer heal less and contribute to dps, if the healer is a baller, he will provide enough cc and efficient healing to make tanks life easier so he can focus on his job and the healer can and should contribute to dps on bosses. In high keys in my opinion carrying doesnt exist. You work as a collective so you can keep pushing keys.
    Last edited by Nargrom; 2021-02-05 at 03:37 PM.
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  16. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistmitpandas View Post
    This is a joke, right? Correct is:

    Hardest role on lower keys: healer.
    Hardest role on mid-range keys: healer.
    Hardest role on higher keys: healer + tank.

    healer is the one carrying every key. healer has to correct every single mistake every dps and tank does. healer gets the blame if keys gets depleted. it is not fun being a healer in m+.
    it depends. Its a case where you really need a group you gel with. I like doing them with my friends but not with pugs because with pugs its very much a case someone will die very quickly like within a global and then ask healer wtf..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    I'm inclined to agree with the OP, I've been finding healing at 15/16 to be easier than any time previously and the pride mana restoration really allows you to spend mana aggressively. Healing becomes easier when you're surrounded by better players who make fewer mistakes, hit their interrupts, tanks know what they need to kite etc.

    At higher keys a lot of mechanics tend to one shot so there isn't even the possibility for the healer to carry. The projectile on the 2nd boss in spires for example, if a dps gets hit on a high key without a defensive then they're dead with nobody to blame but themselves. On a +10 the dps will survive on low health and there's healing pressure to top them up before they get hit again which is much more stressful.
    Very true and yet people will still blame you if they die.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Instead of using the actual leaderboards, it would probably be better to use the very charts that r.io uses at the above the leader boards like these:



    and



    That makes seeing trends easier. Yes DH does dominate more as you climb higher in keystones but the other remaining tank classes are just as viable. And that's something that players really need to understand. "Meta" is only really a concern when you're at the very top of elite gameplay, for everybody else who isn't pushing +18 or higher keys, then the "meta" is mostly irrelevant. If anything it creates a false bias that just because a player is playing a "in-meta" class/spec they MUST BE better than that other player who isn't playing an "in-meta" class/spec.
    We were talking about " higher key"

    The shift is seen starting +12/+13 actually, and you includes +10, which was not my point.

    Looking at dps for +15, for example, give you this :




    As you can see, the dps mainly dominating are the same I told you earlier.

    The more you go into higher key, the more it is shown.

    At +20, this is flawless and you can't deny it.



    Which brings me back to my original point :

    If you're not one of those class you'll find harder time being taken into a PUG group for higher key, even for lower actually cause people tend to be meta slave and copy pasta those higher key group.
    Last edited by Engal; 2021-02-07 at 10:37 AM.

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