M+ and Raider.IO

[Gasparde]

thats just absurd... its not about people having RIO its knowing how to understand the numbers... at a +6 everyone should have around 8(10x6) so 500 rio. its easy to figure out. there are 8 instances. each instances (when completed on time) gives you 10 points per +. so (10 x X). the extra 9.9 points between ranks is how quickly you complete it. if you finish it with 10% of the time left, you are then given 1 extra point. so lets say you want people for a +8. thats 8(10x8) = 640 so you want people around 640 to clear in time. if you are "pushing" you might want people around say 750.

That way of looking at numbers is just as bad.

What good is a rio score of 700 when you have 3 dungeons at +10 and 3 dungeons at like +3 and you're applying for a +7 dungeon that you happen to only have a +3 on? For some reason you're placing a lot of random emphasis on people having timed a +6 Mists to get into your +6 Sanguine Depths. One could imply you're using the numbers wrong, mmhmmm.

[Ealyssa]

RIO is very clearly a tool to find like minded people to play with, and a successful one.

People against it just want to get carried by stranger above their own skill level. It may enrage you, but deep inside you know I'm right.

[erifwodahs]

"you can't get invited to a key until you've already done that key"

does that not seem even the slightest bit wrong to you?


making playing a video game a job: the end goal of design intention and player desire since.... um... oh wait, right. never.

Thats why you do your own key with the groups you assemble. To get the experience needed to pug successfully.

And how is that a job? IS playing DS is a job? It's a hobby. You can be an amateur, hardcore or even earn a living out of that.
It's unreasonable to join someone's casual group and expect people to be competitive, it's perfectly ok to have requirements for your group no matter which hobby you have.

[Subrias]

That way of looking at numbers is just as bad.

What good is a rio score of 700 when you have 3 dungeons at +10 and 3 dungeons at like +3 and you're applying for a +7 dungeon that you happen to only have a +3 on? For some reason you're placing a lot of random emphasis on people having timed a +6 Mists to get into your +6 Sanguine Depths. One could imply you're using the numbers wrong, mmhmmm.

literally impossible.. 3 dungeons at +10 would give you a max of 327 and 3 +3 would give you a max of 97 so your max score would be 424. anyway.. that wasnt the point of my post. i was saying that people requiring 1000 for something that only requires you 700 to get to is people not understanding how the scoring works and what is a good score for what they are doing. Also, the addon/website tells people what your highest runs are... a logical person could come to the conclusion that hey.. they did a +10 SoA.. they can +10 most of these...

[Malkiah]

And how is that a job? IS playing DS is a job? It's a hobby.

i consider the .io score grind every season a bit tedious. not unacceptable, not some huge conspiracy, just tedious and yeah at times a bit second-jobish when it comes down to "having to do something for no real purpose except that it gives you opportunities later on"

i slowly work up my .io by doing every dungeon at progressively harder keys until i've gotten them all done at a certain level and then repeating it at a higher tier.
it gets monotonous, especially for dungeons i don't like or that don't have any loot i need.

It's unreasonable to join someone's casual group and expect people to be competitive, it's perfectly ok to have requirements for your group no matter which hobby you have.

has literally anyone ever said otherwise?

[Merlunie]

I actually did my own key tonight where I specifically decided not take anyone with a RIO score, based on this thread. It was Plaguefall +4. We spent 2 hours and had 55 deaths by the time the first player left. We never finished the dungeon.

On a 4? That’s insane. And people wonder why players leave M+

- - - Updated - - -

The 'evidence' is that back then you didn't have people storm to the forums every day, bitching about being denied for MC PuGs after being checked and deemed too bad on the Org bank roof.



You see, that's all relative. You and me might be having very different definitions of where the endgame in this game truly starts. I for one say, if it's not queueable it's endgame. And if it's not queueable you abide by the rules of those that open the groups. That has always been the case. People didn't just invite the first people to whisper them 'inv' back then in ZG, they didn't do that for Kara, and they also didn't do that for Challenge Modes in MoP. For all of those you were checked in some capacity - and m+ is no different in that regard.



It's irrelevant what people are talking about. It only matters what people are doing. You or me thinking that people shouldn't be expecting to get invited to +5s, +10s or +15s doesn't matter. If you have a dude opening a group for a +5 and expecting you to have all +5s timed... that's not r.io's fault. If that same dude demands you to have all +10s timed for his +5s... that's not r.io's fault. If it wasn't r.io then it'd be ilvl. Or AOTC. Or Achievement Points. Or shoe size. Or anything. You do not have a right to play this person's key. He is entitled to invite whoever he wants. And if there's 1.2k r.io people with 210 signing up for his +5 he's sure as hell going to take them over your 200 gs 500 r.io char. No matter what you think you're entitled to, this guy's key, this guy's rules.



Once more, relative. Just because you think people shouldn't care about this stuff in +5s... doesn't mean they shouldn't care about that stuff in +5s. These people might be in +5s because they're just that bad at the game. And without overpowering the content they're simply not able to clear it... so they want to overpower it... because they can... and it's easier than to actually learn to play the game. It's no one's decision at which keystone level r.io should become publicly acceptable... because it's publicly acceptable even at +2s, evidently proven by groups filtering based on r.io and actually getting a full group.



That's where we disagree then. Just because you, theoretically, can succeed... doesn't mean I'm gonna chance my key on that when there's 50 other people with 500 more r.io and 20 more ilvls readily waiting. It'd be insane of me to expect you to go out of your way and only invite the 'worst' seeming players into your group just because of an arbitrarily deemed-easy-by-me keystone level. Again, my key, my rules, your key, your rules - and if I can get away with getting mythic raiders for my +3... then I'll sure as hell do so instead of taking the first best LFR raider just by virtue of them being 10s faster to queue up for, once more, my key.



Of course I do not have literal proof of that arbitrarily made up statement to support my claim. We're not talking about a literal thing that's observable and going on in this very second at this specific location. We're talking about the concept of people thinking that they're entitled to X. Whatever that X is doesn't matter. Whatever the argument of the entitled person is doesn't matter. I am not bound by any rules to car pool to work with you, I am not bound by any ToS or EULA to play with you. Thus, no matter the content, no matter the circumstance, as long as Blizzard is not literally forcing me to play with you, I am free to decide not to play with you. Your argument, as reasonable and as true and valid and good and solid as it might be... does not change the fact that I do not have to play a +2 key with anything below 210s if I don't want to. And as long as I keep getting people signing up for my +2s in 210 gear I will keep inviting them over you. It's the path of least resistance and it's only natural that EVERYONE is taking it. You wouldn't hire an inexperienced worker for a job if you could get 10 people with tons of experience applying for the same job... for the same money - which is what you'd be doing by inviting a 200 ilvl dude over a 210 dude for your +10s. You have no leg to stand on when you're telling me who I should be playing with, that is all it boils down to - me making hyperbolic claims about fictional 160 gs people with 0 r.io applying to +22 keys doesn't change that fact.... it's just inflating it to get the point across.



Respectfully disagree.
Me only inviting 1k r.io people to my +6 is not about me being a nerdy asmongold watching elitist girthy cock tryhard - it's me being someone who values their time and wants to minimize the risk of investing 30 minutes into a key just to eventually deplete it and get nothing out of it. That doesn't make me elitist, that makes me a person without unlimited free time. If you think my arguments are strawmaning because I'm not literally quoting the people blaming r.io for ruining their chances of getting into a +7 on their 200 gs character just because I'm using abrasive terminology and hyperbolic arguments... then that's just gotta be what it is then.

We might just very much disagree on the very foundations of this issue then - being that I don't think you have any right to be in any group that another human being has started and was not just automatically put together by Blizzard, no matter the arbitrary difficulty setting of whatever content the group is going for. And that's totally fine... because (and I'm not trying to sound giga elitist here or anything) I know I'm going to win. I will always be able to filter out people I deem unworthy of my time - not because you're not a valuable human being, but because I just don't enjoy losing... and picking you might increase the odds of losing... for no other reason other than there being someone else with 0.01 ilvl more than you. You can just not win. Like, you might win and get r.io banned... but then me and all the toxic elitists will find something else to segregate ourselves from people who *think* they should be able to play with us - but again, much like back in Zul Gurub or Zul Aman... we might simply just don't want to play with you... and we will always find ways to not do so.

Yeah I look at main scores a lot. I’m more tempted to take someone with a lower score if they have a good main score to keys 10 and under. The guy below this post I quoted spent 2 hours and 55 deaths on a PF 4.

That’s why RIO exists. To protect us from wasting our time.

[Wysmark]

I dont know how RIO works

Ive been told that the main way of raising your RIO score is just getting lots of runs done, and that if you - like me - only have time for a few runs a week you are essentially screwed

Dont know whats correct, but I cant seem to get invited whether as DPS or healer for anything higher than 6+ despite not depleting a key in a month

[Bigbazz]

I dont know how RIO works

Ive been told that the main way of raising your RIO score is just getting lots of runs done, and that if you - like me - only have time for a few runs a week you are essentially screwed

Dont know whats correct, but I cant seem to get invited whether as DPS or healer for anything higher than 6+ despite not depleting a key in a month

The score is given based on your best runs in each dungeon (the combined scores = your RIo score), not how many dungeons you've done. That said, people will be more likely to invite someone with more dungeons done and the RIO addon shows all this sort of information at a glance, not just the score. It massively favours people who play M+ every day though of course, because it's not like you can just walk into a dungeon with your friends, set the difficulty and go until you beat it, you need keys and failure is punished by taking a step back.

If M+ worked more like Diabo greater rifts, the whole system would be a lot less punishing and a lot less time would be wasted on finding groups/keys.

[T-34]

It's a very long timesink.

Only way to build your Rio score is to slowly build up your rating buy doing 1 lvl at a time. It means you have to do 8x14= 112 runs at the minimum, more since you'll get unlucky on loot, have failed runs, etc.

I think where Rio fails, is people assessing your worth as a player in every other area of the game (for example, torghast) based on your Rio score.

Rio doesn't discriminate on skill, it discriminates on available playtime, like most things in wow.

Just find 4 other "skilled", but time-constrained, players like yourself and "out-skill" those keys and you will have pumped your +2 up to a +15 in 5-6 dungeons.
I have just solved your "discrimination" problem...

[[KJ]]

Yea i've never been a fan of group finder, I remember going through the pain of group finder until i found regular people to play with. I was finding a group longer then I was in one. I very rarely pug because of the pain you need to go through.

Rio is more of a solution then the issue, finding a group is what is painful.

I would prefer a rating inside wow based of what you have completed with automatic group finder. i would much rather risk playing with a Donald then sit waiting around.

Blizz really needs to work on the interface for quality of life

[Toybox]

Just find 4 other "skilled", but time-constrained, players like yourself and "out-skill" those keys and you will have pumped your +2 up to a +15 in 5-6 dungeons.
I have just solved your "discrimination" problem...

True. If all the people who were held back by the addon were able to play together then surely they'd have it easy... Or, more likely, they'd set the requirements themselves that they're currently complaining about if they were in a position to do so.

Once again, it's all solved by playing with guildies/friends.

[Nargrom]

It's a very long timesink.

Only way to build your Rio score is to slowly build up your rating buy doing 1 lvl at a time. It means you have to do 8x14= 112 runs at the minimum, more since you'll get unlucky on loot, have failed runs, etc.

I think where Rio fails, is people assessing your worth as a player in every other area of the game (for example, torghast) based on your Rio score.

Rio doesn't discriminate on skill, it discriminates on available playtime, like most things in wow.

It is a very long time sink if you try to build solo from the pug world.

Chances for a skilled player that managed to do all dgs above +15 in a season, he breach into the +10s bracket of a new season in a matter of 2 weeks tops. So it is possible to skip most of the grind if you have the experience.

On the math you did there 112 runs for a decent rio, sounds accurate, ill go as far as to say 150 runs, including your fails and the runs that dont offer any rio boosts. But for a m+ enthousiast that chooses m+ as his end game, is it really a lot? A season in WoW lasts about 4months at the very minimum. In 120 days if you do 1 key a day thats 120 runs and 30min of your time daily. And i think we both know m+ key pushers dont do one key a day, on weekends keys can go up to a dozen or something like that. So all in all on paper might seem like a time sink, but we as players we manage to sink our time in wow just fine by our lonesome R.io or no R.io.

Lastly on what R.io discriminates. In real life we have a saying ''practice makes perfect''. I believe we can apply this to WoW and m+. You want to get good at m+ you got to put in the hours man, thats just how it is. There are exceptions to this rule, people that adapt into new settings extremelly fast, but again, how can one tell from the LFG tab? So in my opinion skill = available playtime, to some degree.

[Thalrend]

ive been doing that and it sill doesn't help as you have ppl that are qualified for the key as far as rio is concerned but dono mechanics, afixes or use their utility to help the group

You know you have been saying that most of the groups you are making are failing because of many many reasons. So did you ever consider, I don't know, that you are the one causing all this "problems" . I vividly remember you been trying to shit all over other classes and saying that your keys were rapidly failing at +8 +9 range.

[Tiwack]

Since it's not just being used for m+ anymore, it's both helping players find likeminded players and keeping players from having to socialize. It's not all bad but it's not great either. Get guild/friends/r.io doesn't equate to experience/performance. Nor does answering a single relevant question about the content you're about to embark on together, but it gets the ball rolling while giving both parties ideas on who the other is/might be capable of ingame.

An ingame popquiz api to teach noobs/vet players in groupfinder would be far preferable to this 3rd party site.

[thunderdragon2]

You know you have been saying that most of the groups you are making are failing because of many many reasons. So did you ever consider, I don't know, that you are the one causing all this "problems" . I vividly remember you been trying to shit all over other classes and saying that your keys were rapidly failing at +8 +9 range.

I'm not the 1 failing with interrupting, soothing and dispelling, i shat all over them because they arent using their toolkit they are just trying to tunnel things down, that isnt on me,

also how is it my fault that a vengeance dh cant kite the gorgons in a halls of atonement 10?

[Lavey]

I'm at the point in my life I thought about hiring 4 WoW players as personal assistants to avoid the headache of this discussion, and the social obligations of guilds, etc. Seriously I love doing group content, but dislike having to make the social contracts and commitments to have a steady group. I just want to be able to say this without the concern of no-shows, "Monday night you're on from 5pm to 11pm, Wednesday 2-11pm, and Thursdays from 5pm to 10pm, this week so see you there."

[intenz]

my point was that rio is flawed because i just shows score and dungeon best nothing else you can be carried to your score, theres alot more to m+ that just timeing it

You can get carried through a couple of dungeons but the good thing about r.io is it reflects on all dungeons, and it's unrealistic to think people are getting carried through every single dungeon to keys much higher than their own level unless they're paying vast amounts of $$$. It just reads like cope from someone bitter.

Raider.io is way better than gearscore and everything that came before it. I have no issue with it. Whiners are just salty that r.io makes it harder for them to blag their way into high keys. Everyone has to pay their dues now.

[thunderdragon2]

You can get carried through a couple of dungeons but the good thing about r.io is it reflects on all dungeons, and it's unrealistic to think people are getting carried through every single dungeon to keys much higher than their own level unless they're paying vast amounts of $$$. It just reads like cope from someone bitter.

Raider.io is way better than gearscore and everything that came before it. I have no issue with it. Whiners are just salty that r.io makes it harder for them to blag their way into high keys. Everyone has to pay their dues now.

i think you missed a part on my earlier post i said they were getting harried to the 600-800 score by guildies pugging 10s then ruining others keys, also im not trying to get in higher keys than im qualified for.

would you agree that at 796 score i am qualified for 10s and 11s?

those are what im getting declined for as ppl are such sticklers over 4 points now a month ago i managed to get into a few 11s and i managed to time them now i cant get into 10s coz im 4 points off 800......

[ZazuuPriest]

dear god, you don't actually believe that, do you? that has to be hyperbole or something.

what am i saying, of course you do... this is the kind of thing that people who gripe about .io are talking about.

Why should you get a higher score for fucking off in +2-6 dungeons there is basically no added skill at those levels just a "gear check" and not even that for a lot of specs. Getting a higher score from higher M+ is indicitive of a person actually knowing their class because M+ forces the player to use their entire kit not just power through stuff. So honestly no one cares that youve timed 500 4 keys its not impressive and your IO reflects that.

And so we're clear i dont gripe about IO i just want to see that a player has completed a specific dungeon on or near the level that were about to attempt. I dont care about pushing 15 keys like i did in legion when i had more time to so shit like that but to pretend that IO is only useful to neckbeards and tryhards is nonsense.

[chiddie]

It's a very long timesink.

Only way to build your Rio score is to slowly build up your rating buy doing 1 lvl at a time. It means you have to do 8x14= 112 runs at the minimum, more since you'll get unlucky on loot, have failed runs, etc.

I think where Rio fails, is people assessing your worth as a player in every other area of the game (for example, torghast) based on your Rio score.

Rio doesn't discriminate on skill, it discriminates on available playtime, like most things in wow.

It’s not like this. Apart from ppl that play 25 hours on 24, no one is mad enough to build his rio doing every dungeon, then every dungeon +1 until they have made let’s say 8 dungeons at level 9.

People go by brackets. They do 2-3 in the beginning, when they are geared enough they move to the 4-6 bracket and do some, until they are geared enough to move in 7-9 bracket and so on.

But it’s not that “you have to do every dungeon +3 in time in order to be accepted for the 4-6 bracket”. Below level 10, that is the first real barrier, routes and mechanics are the same, the only variable are affixes, but once you know what they do and try 2/3 dungeons , you’re all set.

If I am geared enough there’s no reason I can’t be invited in a 9 if I have that dungeon at 7 max, it’s the same dungeon with mobs that hit harder.