Thread: Gatekeeping

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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Here's the issue with the second quote you mentioned;

    If those films had never been made, then their fans wouldn't have them to enjoy. Your position inherently states that you would rather they be denied content they enjoy, than you to take some personal responsibility for curating your own viewing experience. You're stating that your opinion of the films is the "correct" one, and that the films thus should not have been made at all, for anyone, and anyone who enjoys them is "wrong".

    That's what gatekeeping is. Just take ownership of your dislike, and choose not to watch content that you don't enjoy. It's not that hard. I've only ever seen Episodes 2 and 3 once, each. I only saw Episode 1 twice because I was sure I must have missed something the first time around, and the second viewing bothered me more than the first since I wasn't distracted by the much-more-flashy lightsaber fight scenes the second time around. I'll talk plenty about the stuff that bothers me about them, but I don't tell people they're wrong for enjoying them. That's the difference.
    That's not what I'm saying though. I'm not telling people they're wrong for enjoying them. Long story short, I just think the story of the sequels is detrimental to the continuity of the saga, and I believe sticking to what the original fans want and expect is what the creators should be doing.

    I don't want to take anybody's experience away. Actually, I the contrary. Filming a trilogy such as the sequels which objectively alienated a huge portion of the original fans - this, it took something away from them, it took the movies they might have been looking forward to for a decade away from them. On the other hand, the new fans have nothing to lose. They didn't expect to like the movies, they weren't looking forward to them. They only started enjoying the franchise because it underwent a thematic shift. Thus they are taking something away from the original fans.

    Those people that enjoy the sequels could easily be enjoying a completely different movie, while leaving Star Wars to the people who enjoyed it's previous iterations and expected more of them same. In this scenario, everybody would be happy.

  2. #62
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    That's not what I'm saying though. I'm not telling people they're wrong for enjoying them. Long story short, I just think the story of the sequels is detrimental to the continuity of the saga, and I believe sticking to what the original fans want and expect is what the creators should be doing.

    I don't want to take anybody's experience away. Actually, I the contrary. Filming a trilogy such as the sequels which objectively alienated a huge portion of the original fans - this, it took something away from them, it took the movies they might have been looking forward to for a decade away from them. On the other hand, the new fans have nothing to lose. They didn't expect to like the movies, they weren't looking forward to them. They only started enjoying the franchise because it underwent a thematic shift. Thus they are taking something away from the original fans.

    Those people that enjoy the sequels could easily be enjoying a completely different movie, while leaving Star Wars to the people who enjoyed it's previous iterations and expected more of them same. In this scenario, everybody would be happy.
    And, again, this is gatekeeping. You're pretending you speak for the "old fans", and against the "new fans", but you don't. You only speak for yourself.

    I grew up with the OT, myself. I had the original Millenium Falcon playset as a kid. I saw the re-releases in the '90s in theaters when they came out, on premiere night. I waited for hours to get tickets to the Phantom Menace premiere.

    I caught Attack of the Clones a few weeks in.

    I don't think I even saw Revenge of the Sith in theaters, because I was so disillusioned with the direction they'd taken the series.

    When TFA came out, it revitalized something I'd thought was dead. I saw it as a bit of a retread, but took that as a "we know what the prequels did poorly" message, a return to form. TLJ is solidly in my top 5 Star Wars films, and the only thing keeping it out of the top 3 is that A New Hope and Empire are #1 and #2, and I'm not sure which order I prefer TLJ or Rogue One.

    I'm about as much an "old fan" as you can be. And I definitely prefer at least TFA and TLJ over anything in the prequels. The Rise of Skywalker, eh. I'll admit that one was a stinker, in my eye.

    The sequel trilogy didn't "alienate old fans". You just didn't like them. That's what I meant about you not taking ownership. I loathed the prequels. Did that mean Star Wars was ruined forever? Nah. It just means I make fun of the worst bits of them and don't rewatch them and continue enjoying what I do enjoy.

    In your scenario, there's a lot of fans like me who wouldn't be happy. Stop projecting your own preferences onto others and claiming to speak on their behalf, dude.

  3. #63
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    That's not what I'm saying though. I'm not telling people they're wrong for enjoying them. Long story short, I just think the story of the sequels is detrimental to the continuity of the saga, and I believe sticking to what the original fans want and expect is what the creators should be doing.
    Who are the original fans? Their opinions didn't seem matter for Episode 5 or 6, or 1, 2, or 3; why do they matter now?

    This is gatekeeping. You're saying "These things shouldn't exist, because this group of people that I've decided are the ones who matter are the only people we should listen to."

    I don't want to take anybody's experience away. Actually, I the contrary. Filming a trilogy such as the sequels which objectively alienated a huge portion of the original fans - this, it took something away from them, it took the movies they might have been looking forward to for a decade away from them. On the other hand, the new fans have nothing to lose. They didn't expect to like the movies, they weren't looking forward to them. They only started enjoying the franchise because it underwent a thematic shift. Thus they are taking something away from the original fans.

    Those people that enjoy the sequels could easily be enjoying a completely different movie, while leaving Star Wars to the people who enjoyed it's previous iterations and expected more of them same. In this scenario, everybody would be happy.
    There are so many assumptions here it's difficult to sort this all out. The assumption that it's all "original fans" who don't like the new movies. The assumption that "new fans" were not inclined to enjoy the movies. The implied counter-assumption that "original fans" were inclined to enjoy the movies. Even the use of "original" vs "new", not "old" and "new". The assumption that the new fans because they're new have less to lose.

    Also, you just literally said you want to take people's experiences away.
    Last edited by Sunseeker; 2021-01-23 at 04:58 PM.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The sequel trilogy didn't "alienate old fans". You just didn't like them. That's what I meant about you not taking ownership. I loathed the prequels. Did that mean Star Wars was ruined forever? Nah. It just means I make fun of the worst bits of them and don't rewatch them and continue enjoying what I do enjoy.
    Well this is nothing that couldn't go with what I'm saying. If you told me "I wish the prequels were never made, or made very differently because they feel extremely different from the original trilogy" I'd tell you "well I like them but I completely understand if you were disappointed in the theater because it was different from what you expected of Star Wars". Which is my point. And it's absolutely relevant because this is not about me, my opinion of the sequels is shared by like 50% of the audience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In your scenario, there's a lot of fans like me who wouldn't be happy. Stop projecting your own preferences onto others and claiming to speak on their behalf, dude.
    How do you know that you wouldn't be happy? You admit yourself you think Ep.9 wasn't good. For the same reasons me and countless others feel the same way about 7 & 8. Why is it unacceptable of us to wish that the movies were made in a way that would satisfy all the fans?

    Again you're misunderstanding me - I don't want others to not enjoy the movie, I want everyone to enjoy the movie, or at least as many people to enjoy the movie. In this regard, you must admit the movies were not made well given how extremely dividing they are.

    Mandalorian is a prime example that it could have been done 1000x better, seeing that it is pretty much universally praised.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    ---
    See above, you're both making the same point.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    Why is it unacceptable of us to wish that the movies were made in a way that would satisfy all the fans?
    Because "fans" are basically humans and each human in a loosely-defined collective can all want completely different things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    Again you're misunderstanding me
    Not really, and stop speaking for others and demanding that people should want what YOU want instead of what THEY want.
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  6. #66
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    Well this is nothing that couldn't go with what I'm saying. If you told me "I wish the prequels were never made, or made very differently because they feel extremely different from the original trilogy" I'd tell you "well I like them but I completely understand if you were disappointed in the theater because it was different from what you expected of Star Wars". Which is my point. And it's absolutely relevant because this is not about me, my opinion of the sequels is shared by like 50% of the audience.
    Argument to majority is a logical fallacy.

    How do you know that you wouldn't be happy? You admit yourself you think Ep.9 wasn't good. For the same reasons me and countless others feel the same way about 7 & 8. Why is it unacceptable of us to wish that the movies were made in a way that would satisfy all the fans?
    You literally just wished the "new fans" would go enjoy something else, so that the "original fans" could enjoy Star Wars their way.

    Again you're misunderstanding me - I don't want others to not enjoy the movie, I want everyone to enjoy the movie, or at least as many people to enjoy the movie. In this regard, you must admit the movies were not made well given how extremely dividing they are.
    The division stems from the fanbase. It's one reason I avoid it like the plague. The Star Wars fanbase is incredibly toxic and its been that way since long before the new trilogy.

    See above, you're both making the same point.
    Since you're not getting it, it bears repeating.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    1) Argument to majority is a logical fallacy.


    2) You literally just wished the "new fans" would go enjoy something else, so that the "original fans" could enjoy Star Wars their way.


    3) The division stems from the fanbase. It's one reason I avoid it like the plague. The Star Wars fanbase is incredibly toxic and its been that way since long before the new trilogy.


    4) Since you're not getting it, it bears repeating.
    1) How so? The movies are made for people and they're mainstream blockbusters. If a majority of the people don't like them, it means something.

    2) I don't want them to "go" enjoy something else, I wish the creators would not attract a completely different audience in the first place, which creates division. That's a difference. I'm not gatekeeping, I'm wishing there was no gate in the first place. I'm not appealing to the fans but to the creators.

    3) Does it though? The fan base is only the reflection of the franchise.

    4) That wasn't meant in any way negatively, I just wanted to tag your post si that you get a notification.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    The division stems from the fanbase. It's one reason I avoid it like the plague. The Star Wars fanbase is incredibly toxic and its been that way since long before the new trilogy.
    Oh boy is it horrible and nasty. I tried finding SW forums back ~20 years ago when I first ventured into the internet. Even then the places were toxic places that I'm happy wasn't for me since I had lots of positive places to talk about fiction.
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  9. #69
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    1) How so? The movies are made for people and they're mainstream blockbusters. If a majority of the people don't like them, it means something.
    You've gone from, "people don't like them" to "50% of the fan base" to "the majority". Is your next response going to tell me that these billion-dollar blockbusters are fake news and really everyone hates them?

    Speak for yourself and noone else. You'll find a lot of things come into clarity when you're not trying to claim you represent others.

    2) I don't want them to "go" enjoy something else, I wish the creators would not attract a completely different audience in the first place, which creates division. That's a difference. I'm not gatekeeping, I'm wishing there was no gate in the first place. I'm not appealing to the fans but to the creators.
    You're appealing to the creators to not attract new and different people to the show. You're gatekeeping.

    3) Does it though? The fan base is only the reflection of the franchise.
    Oh I see, it's not your fault for being toxic 20 years before the new trilogy, it's their fault for making a new trilogy 20 years later that rewrote how you behaved before it was even a thing!2. They forced you to do it! WotC didn't burn your books, and Kathleen Kennedy didn't turn you into a toxic gatekeeper who only wants Star Wars to be for the special few.

    Check yourself before you wreck yourself dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    "That's my style; I like to kick 'em when they're down!"
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    1) You've gone from, "people don't like them" to "50% of the fan base" to "the majority". Is your next response going to tell me that these billion-dollar blockbusters are fake news and really everyone hates them?

    Speak for yourself and noone else. You'll find a lot of things come into clarity when you're not trying to claim you represent others.


    2) You're appealing to the creators to not attract new and different people to the show. You're gatekeeping.


    3) Oh I see, it's not your fault for being toxic 20 years before the new trilogy, it's their fault for making a new trilogy 20 years later that rewrote how you behaved before it was even a thing!2. They forced you to do it! WotC didn't burn your books, and Kathleen Kennedy didn't turn you into a toxic gatekeeper who only wants Star Wars to be for the special few.

    Check yourself before you wreck yourself dude.
    1) Of course I'm pulling those numbers out of my ass. It doesn't matter though. The point is that the movies are extremely dividing, I don't think you can disagree with that.

    2+3) That's not what I'm saying. First of all, I'm not toxic. Secondly, I'm not saying people aren't responsible for their actions. I'm just saying that if the creators didn't target a completely different audience in each trilogy, then they wouldn't have such a divided fan base and thus the toxicity would be much lower.

  11. #71
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    I see this all the time in computer programming.

    "JavaScript isn't true programming."

    "Front end isn't true web development."

    "Real developers use X"

    And most of the garbage "answers" on Stack Overflow. "This question is a duplicate and going on internet power trips is the only time my flaccid dick even starts getting hard." Fuck Stack Overflow.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post

    So yeah, if you say "all sequel fans are idiots" then you are "gatekeeping" and being toxic. But if you say "I don't like the sequels and I actually wish they were never filmed for the following reasons:..." and all you get as a reply is "stop gatekeeping SW is for everyone people like you are what's wrong with this world" then yeah, the toxicity is on the other end.
    Try that next time.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Oh, you're a gate keeper? Name every gate.
    Every time I read/hear the word gate keeper my mind goes to Ghostbusters and the key master.

  14. #74
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Try that next time.
    It's this weird reaction some people have with fandom; they feel that because they are fans of an IP, they are entitled to something, the creators are expected to serve their interests, and any failure to do so is thus a failure by those creators.

    The reality is that you're owed nothing, as a fan. If you don't like newer content, just stop watching newer content. Curate your fandom. The new stuff doesn't appeal to you? Oh well. If it appeals to others, then it's just not aimed at you. And you get to accept that and move on with your life. Find new things to be a fan of.

    This is particularly true of big-budget blockbusters. Sometimes, a TV show or other IP can survive with a niche cadre of devoted fans; Supernatural managed to eke out 15 seasons from those of us who loved the show and our support. But big blockbuster movies can't do that. Their budgets are large enough that they need to bring more butts into more seats, to make back the investment. If that means broadening to a new audience, then that's the only reasonable tactic.

    If we control for inflation (and we should), here's box office figures for all Star Wars films; https://ew.com/movies/star-wars-movi...632964#5632964

    A New Hope was a phenomenon, at $1.3 billion, but Eps 5 and 6 were only about $700 million each.

    The Force Awakens made the second-most of any Star Wars film, controlling for inflation. By a lot. TLJ and TRoS both made more than Eps 1 and 2. By any fiscal measure, the sequel trilogy was more successful than the prequel trilogy. The only real dud in there was Solo.

    Sure, maybe the new films made you angry. Don't care. They made money. Which was their purpose. The creators do not owe the "old fans" anything. They owe their investors. Which means they need to make money. And Star Wars has always been about making money, even from A New Hope; Lucas was leaning into merchandising SUPER early, seeing dollar signs in toy sales.

    Don't like 'em? Maybe you're just not that into Star Wars any more. Stop flagellating yourself and blaming the creators for it. The only one hurting you here is you, and it's the combination of that self-harm and the desire to gatekeep and keep new fans away from the IP that lead to people calling this "toxic fandom".

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    That's not what I'm saying though. I'm not telling people they're wrong for enjoying them. Long story short, I just think the story of the sequels is detrimental to the continuity of the saga, and I believe sticking to what the original fans want and expect is what the creators should be doing.

    I don't want to take anybody's experience away. Actually, I the contrary. Filming a trilogy such as the sequels which objectively alienated a huge portion of the original fans - this, it took something away from them, it took the movies they might have been looking forward to for a decade away from them. On the other hand, the new fans have nothing to lose. They didn't expect to like the movies, they weren't looking forward to them. They only started enjoying the franchise because it underwent a thematic shift. Thus they are taking something away from the original fans.

    Those people that enjoy the sequels could easily be enjoying a completely different movie, while leaving Star Wars to the people who enjoyed it's previous iterations and expected more of them same. In this scenario, everybody would be happy.
    Just write fanfiction like the rest of us do hun, Christ and Allah. Lol.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  16. #76
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    2+3) That's not what I'm saying. First of all, I'm not toxic. Secondly, I'm not saying people aren't responsible for their actions. I'm just saying that if the creators didn't target a completely different audience in each trilogy, then they wouldn't have such a divided fan base and thus the toxicity would be much lower.
    Dude, the bit in bold. That's toxicity, right there. That's gatekeeping. Rather than considering all those audiences "Star Wars fans", you're trying to restrict the "true fans" to your own subgroup, and dismiss the interests of the rest.

    This post was seriously like a guy saying "I don't beat my wife, I just smack her around a bit so she knows who's boss."

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Dude, the bit in bold. That's toxicity, right there. That's gatekeeping. Rather than considering all those audiences "Star Wars fans", you're trying to restrict the "true fans" to your own subgroup, and dismiss the interests of the rest.

    This post was seriously like a guy saying "I don't beat my wife, I just smack her around a bit so she knows who's boss."
    Also there’s nothing remotely suss in the fact “real fans” tend to be almost exclusively white dudes while everyone else being a “new fan”, right. /s
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's this weird reaction some people have with fandom; they feel that because they are fans of an IP, they are entitled to something, the creators are expected to serve their interests, and any failure to do so is thus a failure by those creators.
    And on top of that...they take out that anger on the people that like the thing that they do not. Blaming them for the creators of the thing they like "ruining" it.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    "Censorship" is one more, being misused in cases where people lost access to apps after breaking the application's TOS, using the term to dodge responsibility and instead blame the app.
    This is one of the problems with social media. Someone uses a term (incorrectly) for shock value and then others echo the sentiment. Out of nowhere, you have thousands of people using that term to describe something that it's not even applicable to. No one is entitled to a platform and being denied one is not "censorship". Period.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothal View Post
    That's not what I'm saying though. I'm not telling people they're wrong for enjoying them. Long story short, I just think the story of the sequels is detrimental to the continuity of the saga, and I believe sticking to what the original fans want and expect is what the creators should be doing.

    I don't want to take anybody's experience away. Actually, I the contrary. Filming a trilogy such as the sequels which objectively alienated a huge portion of the original fans - this, it took something away from them, it took the movies they might have been looking forward to for a decade away from them. On the other hand, the new fans have nothing to lose. They didn't expect to like the movies, they weren't looking forward to them. They only started enjoying the franchise because it underwent a thematic shift. Thus they are taking something away from the original fans.

    Those people that enjoy the sequels could easily be enjoying a completely different movie, while leaving Star Wars to the people who enjoyed it's previous iterations and expected more of them same. In this scenario, everybody would be happy.
    So did the prequels. For years, it was absolutely taboo to say anything good about them in online circles if you didn't want to get bullied. They weren't divisive like the sequel trilogy, because the fanbase as well as popculture universally dictated to hate them. The Sequels did actually better, because they were at the very least divisive. They at least managed to gather a fan audience of adults participating in the debates, which is more than you can say about the prequels. Hell, the fucking Simpsons even bashed the prequels.

    The prequels are nowadays only valued more due to two reasons: The Clone Wars cartoon basically overshadows the memory of most about the sequels and all the kids who loved them are now grown up adults. Not to forget that due to social media, online discource nowadays is less gatekept, so that people who like the sequels have can actually express that without being bashed by tide nit group of toxic hardcore nerds, which wasn't the case on the internet back when the prequels came out.

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