Thread: Gatekeeping

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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krastyn View Post
    I'm going to need you to quote that. Theo's post stated that the changes blurred the lines between classes and abilities. This makes it easier from an RP perspective as you can do wahtever you want with any class. Mechanically though, it also squishes the difference between an "specialist" and a generalist.

    - - - Updated - - -



    In the case of D&D, I don't think that D&D is alienating a large portion of its original audience. I think some people are upset, but those who are can either a) play the older versions they prefer, b) create house rules for 5e, which a lot of people do already, or c) find a different system (there are plenty of D20 systems out there).

    WotC is doing it for the same reasons Blizzard doesn't 100% focus WoW on hardcore raiders. They want to make as much money as possible..

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, this partly comes down to personal preference. Any system lets you roleplay whoever the hell you want. The mechanics of each system determine how successful your character is.

    In 3.5, the gap between someone who has dedicated their entire life to being good at X, is going to be significantly better at it, than your typical adventurer.

    In 5e, that gap is way, way narrower. It makes most characters pretty good at almost everything.
    I'd argue that if you are trying to sell a product to as many people as possible, alienating your existing fanbase that has been supporting you for decades and treating them like shit because they think your ideas are dumb or wasteful, isn't a good idea.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    I'd argue that if you are trying to sell a product to as many people as possible, alienating your existing fanbase that has been supporting you for decades and treating them like shit because they think your ideas are dumb or wasteful, isn't a good idea.
    And with WotC and 5e, that flatly has not happened. 5e's PHB lifetime sales figures passed those of 3.5 and 4th edition's lifetime sales, back in 2016. Only two years after launch. And it's continued to grow from there.

    https://twitter.com/mikemearls/statu...419840?lang=en

    And speaking as one of that "existing fanbase", who has an extensive collection of 1st and 2nd edition books on the shelf behind me, stop claiming you're speaking for us. Cause you aren't.

  3. #103
    Companies rarely benefit from "gatekeeper' fans. Everyone wants to position their product to similar users and as broadly as possible. "Gatekeeper" audience is not the same as the "Bellweather" audience. That's a misunderstanding of how products/companies aim to expand their customer base.
    "It's a big club. And you ain't in it. It is also the club they use to beat you with." - George Carlin

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    I'd argue that if you are trying to sell a product to as many people as possible, alienating your existing fanbase that has been supporting you for decades and treating them like shit because they think your ideas are dumb or wasteful, isn't a good idea.
    I'd argue that the success of 5E speaks for itself. That, even if they had alienated their existing fanbase (which they haven't), the very fact that D&D is bigger now than it has ever been shows that they must be doing something right.

    And, if you really feel like D&D has abandoned you, you can always just play pathfinder...which continues to support all 3.5e sourcebooks.

    Of course, Pathfinder itself has also made a move towards a more accessible format with their 2.0 edition....but they have committed to keep their first edition books in print for as long as there is a demand for them.

  5. #105
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    As someone who is resigned to enjoy his hobbies alone and rarely discuss them online due to gatekeeping, yes it's real, and yes it's bad. I don't see the issue.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    No. Take D&D for example. A game that is entirely based on your own IMAGINATION when it comes to character creation. You get idiots like the creators of Candlekeep Mysteries who think that D&D, being a game entirely fictional and based entirely upon the imaginations of the players participating, is ableist because there's nothing in D&D rules about people who are handicapped in wheelchairs. Or the racists who think that orcs are representative of black people and demand that be changed in the rules too. Like, it's god damn fantasy, people don't have to roleplay as themselves. That's the sort of nonsense I am talking about. Frankly I don't mind if POC, LGBT and female characters existing in any space that I enjoy, they are more than welcome. But Christ on a cracker people NEED to learn to write because that's why a lot of woke media is bombing left, right and centre.
    I'm not that deeply into D&D due to it being just a Lord of the Rings rip-off which killed any creativity to creat something different than Lord of the Rings in fantasy for decades to come, but isn't 5e actually less restrictive when it comes to character creation and therefore allowing even more to creat a character just after your imagination? Especially since it doesn't shoehorne you into the most generic race and class archetypes to creat a well-rounded character anymore? And I mean, if the rules don't include how to creat a disabled character who can still be an adventurer, isn't that actually restricting your imagination in terms of creating a character? Like, what if I want to creat a Guts like character, who lacks an arm and an eye? But then again, a commentor below you indicated that it actually started with triggered special snowflake culture warrior incels bitching about a optional rules concerning disabled characters, so theres that. I mean, sorry but I kinda rather trust a person who sounds like they believe rather in facts than in feelings than those of a triggered manbaby who feels threatened by fucking Rey Skywalker. Also, playing as a character resembling yourself is kind of the most basic thing people new to rpgs do, its the most usual entry. I mean, its the reason why the tradition of the silent, nameless protagonist in video games evolved, because the player was supposed to immerse himself into the main character. Hell, Luke Skywalker at least starts off as a generic protagonist most people can immerse themselves into. Immersing yourself into a fantastic world is the first entry step into immersing yourself into more complex scenarious. The fact that I have to explain that to you makes you look like a fake nerd boy. You know, the kinds of guys who fake interest in nerd hobbies because they think it gets them attention from girls.

    That's exactly why my generation tends to loath the sequel trilogy. Rey is such a massive Mary Sue it's embarrassing. Like, name me a scenario from the get go where she has to face anywhere near the level of adversity or pain that Luke and Anakin had to face. Not to mention they literally shit on all of the original characters to the point where Mark Hamill, ya know, the official face of the Star Wars franchise, is dunking on Disney's sequel trilogy for the way they treated his character and Han by killing them off like they did. That's also ignoring the absolutely awful story arc of Rey because they couldn't find a director and writer who both understands the Star Wars universe and how to write within it. I also find it ironic that after the acquisition they rejected any notions of using the existing Expanded Universe content, only to go back on it because a lot of it actually makes far more sense and is well written from a story standpoint.
    It doesn't though. The Sequels did well and their reception was actually quite better than those of the Prequels, which were universally loathed up until the Sequel trilogy came out. The Sequels on the other hand actually have a wide fanbase and did quite well financially and critically. You didn't see such a movement of outspoken fans of the prequels during the time they were relevant. Even all the popculture references involving the prequels were most of the time about them being shit. When it comes to the Sequel trilogy, looking at the fact that their biggest haters seem to be fascists like Sargon, the Quartering (a guy whose wife leaves him in the basement when she goes out to eat pizza and who got banned from magic the gathering for creeping up on a cosplayer) and Mauler, its seems like a big percentage of the haterbase seems to be in fact reactonary conservative types and fascists. I mean, I was on MauLers Discord once and hell, its full of the worst kinds of racist incel types. And, like Mark Hamill didn't like a creative choice a director made, so what? I didn't like tons of creative choices George Lucas made and I still don't feel like Star Wars is ruined. And I mean, Rey basically just didn't got her hand gut off. Where I aggree, its kind of lame that Rian didn't do this because it is just such a Star Wars tradition. But otherwise I can't see her being worse than Luke. You know, the farm boy who managed to infiltrate the most advanced space station on the galaxy and then managed to destroy it which battle hardened experienced fighter pilots couldn't do? But then again, considering the way you write, I guess every female character outside of a few exceptions which MauLer or Sargon allowed you to use would be a Mary Sue. Fact is, Rey is a power fantasy. A Power Fantasy, slightly more targeting girls. She is basically the same kind of character as Luke. And they are both way superior to Anakin Skywalker who started off as an actual chosen one too nice for the planet even at 9 years old in Episode 1 and then Lucas backbaddled to make him a Jerk Sue who has to express his pain and suffering through small scale genocide. You know that you liking Anakin Skywalker over Rey tells alot about you? Also, the expanded universe was trash. Once they port some of the good Old Republic Lore over, there is nothing worth preserving. You are talking about an expanded universe where Han Solo turned out to be a secret prince and the emperor had a son named Triclops.

    Do you know why the Mandalorian is wildly popular with my group?
    Because its a well written show with lots of fanservice?

    Because while it still has some aspects of the woke culture that Disney has tried to shove down Star Wars fans throats, it's still a really well written show and not a bunch of disjointed nonsense that employs nuance.
    I mean, if you look for nuance, probably you should the Last Jedi. The Mandalorian is a hit because its simply a fun show which manages to pull the internets heartstrings with Grogu.

    Because nuance and story structure matter, as does writing good characters and dialogue.
    "I don't like sand", said the celibate warrior monk who just confessed small scale genocide to the girl he wants to impress

    And guess what?
    No, you guess what. I think nobody will deny, that the Sequel Trilogy had tons of issues. The biggest of them all is that it is really kinda disjointed and that both directors involved were clearly having conflicting visions. But they guy who cries about the Sequels while acting like the Prequels weren't even more hated by the fanbase and even more of a disjointed mess full of bad writing, bad dialogues and flat characters has no stake in this conversation.

    If you want a franchise to be successful and popular, you need to appeal to everyone, and that includes the old school Star Wars fans, both of my parents generation since they were teens when the films came out originally, mine who grew up on the remastered original trilogy in the early 90's, as well as this next generation.
    Thats what Dave Filoni shows are here for. And maybe we should acknowledge that maybe Star Wars just doesn't works as film trilogies anymore, because the expectations are so damn high and conflicting. Stuff like the Mandalorian works, because it has the room to appeal to a majority of the people. But outside of Rogue One, when had a Star Wars Movie not bein controversial? Hell, didn't even people lose their shit back at Episode 5 because they changed how the force works? People hated the fucking Ewoks. And people like shit hated the fucking Prequels.

    And guess what? My generation and my parents generation, are still the majority of Star Wars fans, not your generation.
    You are talking about entirely different generations of Star Wars fans. Hell, oldschool fans hated the shit out of the remasters. They hate the shit you grew up on. And yeah, I'm the kind of kid who grew up in the 90s and watched Phantom Menace at my sixth birthday and I loved the shit out of it. Your parents more likely than not hated this movie and if not, many vocal fans in their generation did. And guess what, the new generation of Star Wars fans probably grew up on watching the Sequels. So chill the fuck out. And no, you are kind of not the majority. The majority of Star Wars fans is probably not bitching about Kathleen Kennedies j*wish agenda or whatever you are dogwhistling on the internet. The majority of Star Wars fans doesn't talks the same way infamous internet fascists do. And the new movies, with the exception of the one having a straight white guy as lead, still did fucking great at the box office. You are not the silent majority.

    So maybe having something for everyone, is the best way to do things, rather than being stubborn and ignoring the feelings of long term fans who want good story writing and believable characters. Not to mention not killing off our favourite characters in such an awful and disrespectful way.
    The Star Wars Community is notorious for how toxic it is and how it will bash every single new movie. They already did so in the Prequels. There is just no pleasing them through movies. Hell, I'm not sure whether or not the Mandalorian would have been able to go through without any backlash if they wouldn't distract all the monkeys with fanservice. And if we would go by the true super special awesome original original fans, they probably hate everything that came out after a new hope. And no, they didn't kill off your favorite characters in an awful and disrespectful way my dude. They just didn't do with them what you feel entitled to. Han Solo died trying to safe his son and being betrayed by him. And Luke Skywalkers death was kind of the one thing I praise about The Last Jedi. He died saving the resistance in the most Jedi way possible.

    The more people like Kathleen Kennedy try to shove their woke agenda down the throats of people who have been fans for most of their lives and then ignoring our honest criticisms about why the product is garbage, maybe she ought to compromise, not to mention stop hiring racists and ideologues to write shows and films. Also, promoting racists like Kryistina Arielle for the High Republic is peak irony while they try to pretend to be inclusive, yet she's got a laundry list a mile long of racist Tweets to her name.

    Isn't woke agenda a term usually only fascists use? You are not really convincing me of not being a fascist if you talk like a fascist. You know what I mean? And I guess Kryistina said something mildly critical about whites? At least when I looked it up, I couldn't find a single controversy concerning racial comments she made, so I guess its something that just triggered fascists.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I'd argue that the success of 5E speaks for itself. That, even if they had alienated their existing fanbase (which they haven't), the very fact that D&D is bigger now than it has ever been shows that they must be doing something right.

    And, if you really feel like D&D has abandoned you, you can always just play pathfinder...which continues to support all 3.5e sourcebooks.

    Of course, Pathfinder itself has also made a move towards a more accessible format with their 2.0 edition....but they have committed to keep their first edition books in print for as long as there is a demand for them.
    It's almost like things get more popular as pop culture normalizes them. D&D went from being a game that normies perceived as a game for neckbeards and basement dwellers in the span of the last decade or so. It's almost like things become more popular on their own because more people get interested in them. Kinda like how there's way more women in gaming now than there was when I was a kid over 20 years ago. D&D, like many other forms of entertainment has grown because playing it is no longer shunned like it used to be, not because of some imaginary accessibility thing. 5e made the game way more casual friendly, that's why it's more popular, not because it was a game that was exclusionary.

    Honest question though. In a role playing game, why does a person who is handicapped have to roleplay has a character in a wheelchair? It's fantasy, nothing in your life has to exist in a game like D&D or Pathfinder. You can make up your own rules if you don't like how the game is structured. You don't need extra rulesets in order to enjoy or play the game.

    Edit: @Diaphin, I mean, I'm in my 30's and I dislike the prequel trilogy as much as the sequels. Both suffer from awful writing and terrible stories. Sure, they have their moments, but it's primarily nonsense with some high budget action scenes while the original trilogy at least balances that out a bit better. Lucas never could write a good script to save his life and the whole franchise suffers in films from shallow characters because you can only do so much in a 2 hour film.
    Last edited by Rennadrel; 2021-01-25 at 02:57 AM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Honest question though. In a role playing game, why does a person who is handicapped have to roleplay has a character in a wheelchair?
    Why are you assuming that only disabled players would play disabled characters, for starters.

    It's fantasy, nothing in your life has to exist in a game like D&D or Pathfinder.
    Lazy argument.



    You can make up your own rules if you don't like how the game is structured. You don't need extra rulesets in order to enjoy or play the game.
    You're right: You don't need them, but what stops you from not using an entirely optional ruleset? Fuck all, is what.

    But this really isn't about the merits of which rulesets are or aren't included in the game; it's more a function of you don't like the fact that these rulesets get official recognition and put you in a position where you have to actively justify your decision to exclude certain demographics from the game universe rather than just thoughtlessly adhering to what used to be the default before it got all deconstructed.
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  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    It's almost like things get more popular as pop culture normalizes them. D&D went from being a game that normies perceived as a game for neckbeards and basement dwellers in the span of the last decade or so. It's almost like things become more popular on their own because more people get interested in them. Kinda like how there's way more women in gaming now than there was when I was a kid over 20 years ago. D&D, like many other forms of entertainment has grown because playing it is no longer shunned like it used to be, not because of some imaginary accessibility thing. 5e made the game way more casual friendly, that's why it's more popular, not because it was a game that was exclusionary.
    Never claimed that the game was exclusionary. Gatekeeping is something that comes from a subset of fans of a thing...not the thing itself. Note: i said subset of fans...not all fans.

    Companies that are selling a product, in general, tend to like to avoid gatekeeping. They want as many people as possible to purchase their product.

    Honest question though. In a role playing game, why does a person who is handicapped have to roleplay has a character in a wheelchair? It's fantasy, nothing in your life has to exist in a game like D&D or Pathfinder. You can make up your own rules if you don't like how the game is structured. You don't need extra rulesets in order to enjoy or play the game.
    Honest question for you. Why do you care if someone wants to play as a character in a wheelchair? How does it affect you at all?

    If you don't want to play as a character in wheelchair...don't.

  10. #110
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    Uhm... you are playing a fantasy game... a person in a wheel chair can have the same exact stats as those without... is there a thing in DND about hats? Like, if you wear a cowboy hat, you just can be a wizard or barbarian?

    Why would someone in a wheelchair, require a new rule set? WTF?
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Uhm... you are playing a fantasy game... a person in a wheel chair can have the same exact stats as those without... is there a thing in DND about hats? Like, if you wear a cowboy hat, you just can be a wizard or barbarian?

    Why would someone in a wheelchair, require a new rule set? WTF?
    Have any of you actually read any of said rulesets, is my question.

    They're not "required" in the same way nothing besides the PHB is "required", but for some reason people tend to get a lot more shitty about optional rulesets that increase diversity of character customization versus optional rulesets that give them another class to play.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-01-25 at 07:29 AM.
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Have any of you actually read any of said rulesets, is my question.
    I have not... Could you clarify how a wheelchair is presented in said rules? It doesn’t make any sense...
    As above, so below.
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I have not... Could you clarify how a wheelchair is presented in said rules? It doesn’t make any sense...
    Honestly, it is presented in such a way that if you removed the word "wheelchair" and replaced it with some invented name for an artificial mount (Self-Propelled Battle Chariot or w/e) there would be little difference - there are some mechanical advantages to do with being knocked prone, item storage, etc., but you're reliant on a separate object for mobility in a way that people who aren't mounted that poses its own unique challenges.

    But again, because this stems from a push for inclusivity rather than being presented as Wizards of the Coast giving a fun new toy to their devoted true fanbase of sweaty neckbeards, exception is taken.
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Honestly, it is presented in such a way that if you removed the word "wheelchair" and replaced it with some invented name for an artificial mount (Self-Propelled Battle Chariot or w/e) there would be little difference - there are some mechanical advantages to do with being knocked prone, item storage, etc., but you're reliant on a separate object for mobility in a way that people who aren't mounted that poses its own unique challenges.

    But again, because this stems from a push for inclusivity rather than being presented as Wizards of the Coast giving a fun new toy to their devoted true fanbase of sweaty neckbeards, exception is taken.
    Yeah, that’s ridiculous... make a no sense... it seems like the limits is imagination. Why can’t it be a wheelchair that reacts and behaves exactly like walking or running or what ever? It’s pretend...

    Last edited by Felya; 2021-01-25 at 07:42 AM.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Yeah, that’s ridiculous... make a no sense... it seems like the limits is imagination. Why can’t it be a wheelchair that reacts and behaves exactly like walking or running or what ever? It’s pretend...
    I could ask you the same question: why does it have to be something that "that reacts and behaves exactly like walking or running or what ever".

    The answer is "it doesn't" and "let people enjoy things".
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    I could ask you the same question: why does it have to be something that "that reacts and behaves exactly like walking or running or what ever".

    The answer is "it doesn't" and "let people enjoy things".
    That’s what I mean by what ever... you can make it work, what ever the rules are...

    As above, so below.
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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    That’s what I mean by what ever... you can make it work, what ever the rules are...
    Yeah, but rather than having to homebrew a new solution every time it helps to have a codified example of that people can use as a guideline.

    Which is exactly what this is. There is absolutely nothing about this which is limiting.
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    I have not... Could you clarify how a wheelchair is presented in said rules? It doesn’t make any sense...
    If you're curious about it you can read about it here

    Without going into the actual game mechanics here's a bit of info:

    The Combat Wheelchair

    Made with the adventurer in mind, the Combat Wheelchair is supportive and intuitive,
    designed for both daily activity and the pressures of combat during one's adventures. It
    can be specifically tailored to its user with a variety of intuitive upgrades, designed and
    created by first-rate artificers and their disabled consultants to ensure high-grade
    comfort and excellent efficiency. Not only this, the wheelchair prides itself as being
    sleek, fashionable, and durable at a price affordable for the discerning mobility user.

    Taking its design from the chair used in sports such as wheelchair basketball and rugby,
    the Combat Wheelchair can withstand high impact and even work as a weapon in itself,
    providing the user with a means of both defence and attack.

    Anyone can be an adventurer.

    What Does This Chair Do?

    The Combat Wheelchair may look like it comes with lots of Features and some of you
    may feel that because of this it's "unfair" for a character to have this item at first level.
    However, this chair only has so many Features because it is designed to enable a
    disabled party member to do exactly what the abled members of the party can do.

    "But it can float up and down stairs! Isn't that unfair?"

    No, unless you plan on making all the able bodied characters at level 1 also remain on
    ground floors only and never go up and down stairs and into dungeons. If you were
    planning on doing that then that's fair.

    Wait. What? What do you mean I sound ridiculous, hm?

    "But it can be used as a weapon! Isn't that unfair?"

    No, unless you plan on taking away every player's weapon. If you were planning on doing
    that then that's fair.

    What do you mean that sounds silly?

    Additionally, this chair uses the Dungeons & Dragons established rulings that it cannot be
    used to make Extra Attacks until level 5.

    "But this chair has equipment that comes with it!"

    Yes, in much the same way a sword comes with a sheath and belt, aDungeoneer's
    Packcomes with ropes and caltrops, or a horse comes with a saddle and bridle, the
    Combat Wheelchair comes with seatbelts and gloves.
    "But wheelchairs have never been in Dungeons & Dragons! This is nonsense!"
    We suggest you read R.A. Salvatore's 'Drizzt' novels which are canon to D&D.

    The Combat Wheelchair – v2.0. - Sara Thompson (mustangsart) © 2020

    "Why would anyone need a wheelchair? This world has magic!"

    Again, we recommend you read Salvatore's 'Drizzt' novels. Additionally, healing spells
    like Restoration and Regeneration are very costly, and what about those of us simply
    born with our disabilities? You cannot regenerate or restore what was not there to begin
    with. And some of us? Well, we don't want to be 'fixed'.

    This chair was never created to make a disabled character 'better' than an able bodied
    character. It was made to enable characters with disabilities to go adventuring the same
    as an able bodied character.

    If you take issue with disabled people celebrating and having fun with the game that
    they love, then you need to reconsider your stance on disability. Disability is nothing to
    be ashamed about.

    And remember: No one is making you use this supplement. It is here and exists for
    those of us who need and who want to see ourselves in the tabletop games we so
    dearly enjoy.

    Happy adventuring!
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-01-25 at 08:10 AM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    What you are describing is, in and of itself, a form of gatekeeping.

    Anyone who says you have to like all of something in order to like any of something is gatekeeping.

    the other side of it though is the people that say "if you like the sequel trilogy then you don't like star wars" or "you aren't a REAL Star Wars Fan"

    that's also gatekeeping.

    Me, I'm a Star Wars Fan. I think that both the sequels and the prequels are far less than the original trilogy. Anyone that says I'm not a Star Wars Fan because of that can get stuffed.
    I would fully agree with this. But, what I find to be another form of gatekeeping is the people that don't like part of the fandom and never fucking shut up about it I consider that gatekeeping because they are actively attempting to prevent other people from liking that portion of the fandom. At least, that's what I imagine their goal is ... since there's no other reason to bang on for months about how much you hate something.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I would fully agree with this. But, what I find to be another form of gatekeeping is the people that don't like part of the fandom and never fucking shut up about it I consider that gatekeeping because they are actively attempting to prevent other people from liking that portion of the fandom. At least, that's what I imagine their goal is ... since there's no other reason to bang on for months about how much you hate something.
    I blame Nostalgia Critic and CinemaSins, honestly.
    "Multiculturalism has failed!" angrily types a person of European descent living in the Americas in a Germanic language using Roman characters on a device coded with Arabic numerals before leaving in a huff to go watch cartoons made in Japan.

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