Gatekeeping

[Egomaniac]

I would fully agree with this. But, what I find to be another form of gatekeeping is the people that don't like part of the fandom and never fucking shut up about it I consider that gatekeeping because they are actively attempting to prevent other people from liking that portion of the fandom. At least, that's what I imagine their goal is ... since there's no other reason to bang on for months about how much you hate something.

It could be sort of gatekeeping...I guess. It might depend on the situation though

Like it you're going on and on about how much you hate a particular sect of the fandom because they don't enjoy the thing the way you do...that could certainly be gatekeeping

However, if the reason you are trying to keep people away from a certain group is because of a really bad experience with those people... well, that might be more understandable.

[Spaceboytg]

It could be sort of gatekeeping...I guess. It might depend on the situation though

Like it you're going on and on about how much you hate a particular sect of the fandom because they don't enjoy the thing the way you do...that could certainly be gatekeeping

However, if the reason you are trying to keep people away from a certain group is because of a really bad experience with those people... well, that might be more understandable.

Think TLJ or Star Trek Discovery. There's the people that just never ever stop talking about how much they hate the movie/show and whatever nit they feel like picking at that particular moment over and over and over again. Someone who hasn't watched either of those things jumping into the threads here on MMOC to see if they might enjoy them would not come away with a favorable impression due to the nigh-incessant bitching by a small number of people who just never ever fucking stop. Fencers recently started watching Discovery and it's been nice to see their impression of the show (both good and bad) without it being colored by the people who never stop hating the show.

I love Trek. I love Discovery. It got my wife into watching Trek finally so I'm exceptionally happy with it But when I go to the thread here to talk about a new episode or whatever I come away feeling utterly discouraged by the non-stop hate from a handful of people. Why do they even continue to watch something they so utterly despise? I can only surmise it's because they want to color others impressions of it before watching so that they can say "see, more people hate it!". They've decided that Trek can only be a certain way that appeals to just them.

It's the same with WoW, really. If you came to these forums to get an idea about the game you'd leave swearing never to touch it. And it's not because WoW is "bad", but because these fans of the older version of the game never stop bitching about anything they think they can bitch about about the newer version.

Hell, you can see it in this thread with D&D and Star Wars. Certain people demand that these IP's cater solely to their sensibilities and will spew whatever venom they can to ensure that as few people as possible will find they enjoy the newer versions.

Sorry, just been so tired lately with people bitching so much about things I enjoy and trying to suck the joy out of them.

[Egomaniac]

Hell, you can see it in this thread with D&D and Star Wars. Certain people demand that these IP's cater solely to their sensibilities and will spew whatever venom they can to ensure that as few people as possible will find they enjoy the newer versions.

Sorry, just been so tired lately with people bitching so much about things I enjoy and trying to suck the joy out of them.

Yeah that's pretty much textbook gatekeeping. Not just to keep other people away...but to attack the people that actually like the thing that they do not.

It's one thing to not like something. And sometimes you want to vent about how much you did not like that thing...and that's fine. But when people are like "You aren't a real Star Trek fan if you like Discovery" or will just berate you over and over again because you didn't hate TLJ....that's taking it way too far.

I personally did not like this season of Discovery very much. If you asked me why, I'd be happy to explain to you why it didn't work for me....but I would not hold it against you if you said "Well, I actually kinda liked it".

[Diaphin]

It's almost like things get more popular as pop culture normalizes them. D&D went from being a game that normies perceived as a game for neckbeards and basement dwellers in the span of the last decade or so. It's almost like things become more popular on their own because more people get interested in them. Kinda like how there's way more women in gaming now than there was when I was a kid over 20 years ago. D&D, like many other forms of entertainment has grown because playing it is no longer shunned like it used to be, not because of some imaginary accessibility thing. 5e made the game way more casual friendly, that's why it's more popular, not because it was a game that was exclusionary.

It is a slow process though and I can see that it has tons to do with accessability. Like hell, have you played some oldschool video games? I tried to play some old ass Elder Scrolls once and it make look Dark Souls look like Hello Kitty Island we hold your hand through every step. Not because it was difficult, but because it was just designed to be obnoxious and inaccessible. And looking at older editions of D&D I kinda see the appeal of 5e. Its more easy to a character you want, based on a concept you find interesting and being able not to be a burden for your group instead of having to min-max the shit out of the game and ending up with the most generic ass character possible. Its something I always prefered in Shadowrun, you can just play the shit you find fun in concept and make it somehow work.

Honest question though. In a role playing game, why does a person who is handicapped have to roleplay has a character in a wheelchair? It's fantasy, nothing in your life has to exist in a game like D&D or Pathfinder. You can make up your own rules if you don't like how the game is structured. You don't need extra rulesets in order to enjoy or play the game.

Why has it to be necessarily handicapped people who would want to play a handicapped character? Again, maybe somebody wants to play some Guts-like swordsman with one arm or like a Prof X style Sorcerer in a wheelchair. Or maybe a disabled player is new to the game and starts off with a character who is closer to themselves? Or they just want to because they find it interesting? Whats the deal with that? And people make their own rules all the time, but whats the harm with bringing the topic to the attention of WotC and inspire them to expand the game for the masses? More concepts seem to be always like a good thing. Not to forget that nearly everything in fantasy is still based on real life cultures, history or mythology.

Edit: @Diaphin, I mean, I'm in my 30's and I dislike the prequel trilogy as much as the sequels. Both suffer from awful writing and terrible stories. Sure, they have their moments, but it's primarily nonsense with some high budget action scenes while the original trilogy at least balances that out a bit better. Lucas never could write a good script to save his life and the whole franchise suffers in films from shallow characters because you can only do so much in a 2 hour film.

I mean, I think most fans, no matter what trilogy they like will like the OT best. Its a non-controversial opinion, that Empire is the best movie in the series. But you were specifically acting like the Sequels ruined Star Wars once and for all, when everything that came after Return of the Jedi was always hated by subsections of the Star Wars fans and deemed as ruining Star Wars. Remember how people lost their shit over Midichlorians? Or Jar Jar? And deemed that as ruining Star Wars? And I'm pointing this out because many haters of the Sequel trilogy suddenly start to praise the Prequels like shit, when they were flawed in their own way. I would argue the sequels are individually better movies than the prequels, but fail to fall together as a trilogy due to Rian vs JayJay. And I mean, that Luke Skywalkers arc in The Last Jedi is controversial is one point. I kinda disliked the backstory behind it and feel like it could have been better written. But who can be mad about the way Han Solo was killed? It was a phenomenal and tense scene and probably Fords best acting performance ever in this role. And when I watched it for the first time, I couldn't stop being amused about how after decades, Harrison Ford finally got his will and had Han Solo die.

[Krastyn]

I'd argue that if you are trying to sell a product to as many people as possible, alienating your existing fanbase that has been supporting you for decades and treating them like shit because they think your ideas are dumb or wasteful, isn't a good idea.

So much like I asked another poster to try and show causal links to why sales increased, I'm going to ask you to show any actual data showing that WotC has alienated a significant portion of their existing fanbase.

To go back to the WoW analogy, anytime WoW tries to cater more to the casuals, there's always a shitstorm on the forums about how they're "ruining the game", or otherwise making things worse. It's statistically shown though, that hardcore raiders make up a fraction of the player base. This doesn't make their opinion of the game wrong, it just means the company is catering to their larger base. 5e has its detractors who say it is "ruining' D&D, but it's really hard to gauge the actual representation of those people on a forum. The loud are always over-represented.

Muck like D&D, both 4e and 5e have taken things in different directions from previous. 4e overall didn't go so well. 5e has been doing well. I'm sure they will evaluate what has worked and what hasn't when they try for 6e. Those that have walked away from 5e because they thought it isn't as good are perfectly ok to hold that valid opinion. Those who find 5e to be the best system so far are also valid in their opinion.

As I've said previously, I still prefer 3.5 to 5. I believe my preference would actually be somewhere in the middle. I think 5e is too simplified, but I also think 3.5 could be thinned a bit.

One of the nice things with tabletop becoming main stream is that there are way, way more variants out there now than since even 3.5. If 6e is good, we'll play it. If it's bad, we'll play a different system. There's options out there now.

[Saninicus]

Only real fans know what gate keeping is.

Bad joke aside there's one form of gatekeeping that angers me. you can't (activity) unless you're (race). As far as keeping "normies" out of hobbies like warhammer 40k or D&D? That's really not a think I do. While I'm a lore junkie for both one actually never played them.

[Rennadrel]

I would fully agree with this. But, what I find to be another form of gatekeeping is the people that don't like part of the fandom and never fucking shut up about it I consider that gatekeeping because they are actively attempting to prevent other people from liking that portion of the fandom. At least, that's what I imagine their goal is ... since there's no other reason to bang on for months about how much you hate something.

You mean like how the newbies to fandoms complain about the laundry list of things that they hate and demand changed even when they aren't actually problems? Like calling fans of literally everything in nerd culture from Star Wars and Star Trek to D&D racists, white supremacists, bigots, transphobes, homophobes etc etc because people don't like their diversity driven bullshit that has zero substance to it. I do find it amusing that these morons can't seem to understand that people just don't give a rats ass about identity politics and want to enjoy their escapism without being preached at by a bunch of ideological thugs.

[AeneasBK]

Bad joke aside there's one form of gatekeeping that angers me. you can't (activity) unless you're (race).

Out of sheer curiosity what do you mean here? THe first example that came to my head was "You can't 'see in the dark' unless you're eg. Drow", which at face value seems perfectly reasonable; but if it's genuine "activities" then sure but I struggle to think of an example where a DM might say "No you can't 'mine' because you're not a Dwarf" or something like that.

Sorry if I just got the complete wrong end of the stick

EDIT: Unless you're talking about in real life, oof

2nd EDIT: What was I smoking? ... :O *cough*

[Elegiac]

Star Trek

people don't like their diversity driven bullshit

I see you've not watched a single episode of Star Trek. Rofl.

[AeneasBK]

I see you've not watched a single episode of Star Trek. Rofl.

Gene Roddenberry is famous for being a racial supremacist, and what they've done to his legacy is despicable. /s

[Elegiac]

Out of sheer curiosity what do you mean here?

Complaining about cultural appropriation without bothering to understand what it is or why people are critical of certain cases of where it happens but not others.

[Saninicus]

Out of sheer curiosity what do you mean here? THe first example that came to my head was "You can't 'see in the dark' unless you're eg. Drow", which at face value seems perfectly reasonable; but if it's genuine "activities" then sure but I struggle to think of an example where a DM might say "No you can't 'mine' because you're not a Dwarf" or something like that.

Sorry if I just got the complete wrong end of the stick

EDIT: Unless you're talking about in real life, oof

Real life junk. Not game(s) related. Some of these are some hot takes for sure. I'll find some after I get some sleep. Right now I'm having trouble thinking straight. But some of these hot takes are funny as hell.

- - - Updated - - -

Complaining about cultural appropriation without bothering to understand what it is or why people are critical of certain cases of where it happens but not others.

Oh hey you're trolling again well must be a day ends with Y anyway it's just one example I can find many more if I get some sleep.

https://images.app.goo.gl/o89Wk8nMfyH3u5ca9 like I said I'll link some more later. Because some of these are hilarious. like apparently since I'm white I cannot speak Spanish or learn Spanish because.......reasons. too bad I used to know it when I lived in Puerto Rico many moons ago. Forgot damn near all of it.

[Elegiac]

https://images.app.goo.gl/o89Wk8nMfyH3u5ca9 like I said I'll link some more later. Because some of these are hilarious. like apparently since I'm white I cannot speak Spanish or learn Spanish because.......reasons. too bad I used to know it when I lived in Puerto Rico many moons ago. Forgot damn near all of it.

'Reasons', namely that you a white person get to choose to speak Spanish to be fun and quirky whereas Latino people face immense pressure to assimilate or even discrimination for speaking their native language. It's a failure to reckon with privilege and the system that creates and codifies that privilege.

That is the point being raised when people talk about cultural appropriation in a serious context as opposed to the bad faith Puriteen posts you dig up off Twitter, lol. Because cultural appropriation is a neutral term - if they can't actually substantiate why a particular instance of cultural appropriation is harmful (see: chopsticks) then just ignore and move on as it's, as said, a bad faith argument and not an educated treatment of the subject.

EDIT: To add to that, I should let you know I've seen the OG post about chopsticks and that poster in particular was chased off Twitter for being a TERF, so... Yeah, bad faith on their part.

[Saninicus]

'Reasons', namely that you a white person get to choose to speak Spanish to be fun and quirky whereas Latino people face immense pressure to assimilate or even discrimination for speaking their native language. It's a failure to reckon with privilege and the system that creates and codifies that privilege.

That is the point being raised when people talk about cultural appropriation in a serious context as opposed to the bad faith Puriteen posts you dig up off Twitter, lol. Because cultural appropriation is a neutral term - if they can't actually substantiate why a particular instance of cultural appropriation is harmful (see: chopsticks) then just ignore and move on as it's, as said, a bad faith argument and not an educated treatment of the subject.

EDIT: To add to that, I should let you know I've seen the OG post about chopsticks and that poster in particular was chased off Twitter for being a TERF, so... Yeah, bad faith on their part.

You're the one fucking gatekeeping right now. I like to know what the fuck people are saying around me that's why I want to learn Spanish that's why I knew Spanish when I lived in Puerto Rico you could shove that privilege bullshit. Btw here's more gatekeeping for you. I just want you to laminate on the fact that you are in fact gatekeeping right now. You're telling me what I can and can't do and you know what that never works out well.


Loved sorrowtv too bad he doesn't do content anyone.

[Jastall]

The temptation to gatekeep can be pretty hard to resist sometimes when you take something (a bit too much) to heart.

A great example to me is Fallout. I'm a huge fan of 1, 2 and New Vegas. Not so much the rest of the series, albeit I found 4 decent for what it was. I used to think the Bethesda games just weren't Fallout and their fans weren't really Fallout fans- that Fallout was about exploring the ethics and societies of a post-apocalyptic world, not building a better plasma gun to shoot raiders and Super Mutants in the face with. I've loosened my stance on that over time, even if I still do think Fallout is very much as its best when it tries to be a proper RPG rather than the open world choice-and-consequence free theme parks Bethesda designs. The people who prefer that design are just different from me and have different taste, and who am I say to start rules lawyering on whenever they're real fans or not? Fallout 4's sales numbers speak for themselves, after all, it's the best selling game in the franchise by a fairly wide margin.

Still, I do think having preferences for a franchise's direction isn't the same as gatekeeping. I really don't feel anywhere near at fault when I opine that Black Isle and Obsidian's Fallouts were wayyy better RPGs than Bethesda's games and that I'd have much preferred them to handle the serie's reins while Bethesda sticks to TES. And something like FO76 would never have existed and whomsoever even suggested it as an idea in my world would have received a clout behind the head. But that's just me and obviously people who like and play that game will vehemently disagree.

[Elegiac]

You're the one fucking gatekeeping right now.

I don't recall saying "don't speak Spanish", rofl.

[AeneasBK]

And something like FO76 would never have existed and whomsoever even suggested it as an idea in my world would have received a clout behind the head. But that's just me and obviously people who like and play that game will vehemently disagree.

Arguably they could have made a game to explore the ethics of a society in a post apocalyptic world by making players that society. I don't have a problem with a lot of Fallout76, but other aspects of it could have been handled a lot better, namely the continual retconning of the world. But the concept of setting a Fallout 'MMO' for want of a better term, in the "early" stages of civilisation rebuilding, that sets the stages for later better established factions doesn't deserve a clout around the head. I quite enjoyed reading through the holotapes of the very first Brotherhood of Steel recruits, and that part of it at least meshed with existing lore about their founding, no?

[Egomaniac]

Still, I do think having preferences for a franchise's direction isn't the same as gatekeeping. I really don't feel anywhere near at fault when I opine that Black Isle and Obsidian's Fallouts were wayyy better RPGs than Bethesda's games and that I'd have much preferred them to handle the serie's reins while Bethesda sticks to TES. And something like FO76 would never have existed and whomsoever even suggested it as an idea in my world would have received a clout behind the head. But that's just me and obviously people who like and play that game will vehemently disagree.

Sure, there's no problem with having preferences. The people that say you have to like All of it or none of it are also being gatekeepers.

Saying "I didn't really like Fallout 3" is not the same as "You aren't a real Fallout fan if you liked Fallout 3"

[Endus]

Sure, there's no problem with having preferences. The people that say you have to like All of it or none of it are also being gatekeepers.

Saying "I didn't really like Fallout 3" is not the same as "You aren't a real Fallout fan if you liked Fallout 3"

Or "Fallout 3 is an abomination that pisses on the Fallout name", which implicitly states anyone who liked it is wrong to have liked it.

Just own your personal dislike and curate your own experience. Nobody's making you experience this stuff you don't like. If I'm eating a steak at a restaurant and hate the spice rub they use, I'm not going to force myself to hate-eat the entire steak and then order three more because I refuse to let their stupid rub make me not eat steak.

I'm just gonna find another place that makes steak how I like it.

And if you like that spice rub, go you. Why does that affect me in any way? It doesn't. We can both enjoy our separate things.

[Jastall]

Arguably they could have made a game to explore the ethics of a society in a post apocalyptic world by making players that society. I don't have a problem with a lot of Fallout76, but other aspects of it could have been handled a lot better, namely the continual retconning of the world. But the concept of setting a Fallout 'MMO' for want of a better term, in the "early" stages of civilisation rebuilding, that sets the stages for later better established factions doesn't deserve a clout around the head. I quite enjoyed reading through the holotapes of the very first Brotherhood of Steel recruits, and that part of it at least meshed with existing lore about their founding, no?

Players don't behave that way in MMOs, however. At least not the vast majority of them. Hell Bethesda wanted players to replace merchant NPCs and the like, which is only a thing in niche MMOs like Eve Online that are designed from the ground up to have a player-run economy where nothing can be accomplished solo, which was not the case for FO76 and won't be the case for any MMO even close to the mainstream- and Bethesda Games Studio does mainstream games. FO76 was far, far closer to the looty shooty sort of Fallout than the walky talky sort of Fallout by design.

Both concept and execution of that game were extremely poor if you ask me, and that'll all I will say on the subject lest this turns into a Fallout thread much like it almost turned into a D&D thread earlier.