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  1. #241
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and 4th war that recently ended, was declared by Varian in wotlk, that was just "on hold" couple times but never ended till now, so yeah, alliance started that one
    While number wise they might all be the 4th war it defiantly wasn’t a continuation of the alliance one started in wrath anduin even says they aren’t at war before bfa.

    It’s pretty much like the classic/tbc war which would have to fall into the 3rd war which doesn’t make any sense.
    Last edited by Daemos daemonium; 2021-01-25 at 05:46 PM.

  2. #242
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    and 4th war that recently ended, was declared by Varian in wotlk, that was just "on hold" couple times but never ended till now, so yeah, alliance started that one
    What else Alliance started? Burning Legion galaxy conquest?
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    She is not even a forsaken but rather lightforged undead. She suffers none of the downsides of being undead and seems to be a special snowflake that was invented as anti thesis to what Forsaken actually are.
    A baseless assumption. You have no idea what or how she feels.

    She is technically an alliance character with zero connections to the other horde leaders.
    Also false. She is there upon request from Lilian Voss. Before that, when she reemerged, she was a neutral character who helped both Alliance and Horde priests in the campaign against the Burning Legion.

    Like she is literally on BFF status with both Anduin and Jaina.
    Irrelevant. Once upon a time, Sylvanas Windrunner was a member oft he Alliance, also.

    The Forsaken are all about melancholy and shadows.
    Another baseless assumption. The Forsaken are a race of beings who have been raised into a state of living that is unnatural. Many see them as monsters. Many more assume their resurrection is of an unholy nature. With that being true, it is not unreasonable that being shunned might bring those feelings to the surface, but that is not the meat and drink of their existence.

    Calia is fully absorbed with the holy light.
    So are undead holy priests, what's your point?

    Being a Forsaken means you are rejected and cast out.
    Let's say you are a 13 year old awkward kid in school. No one likes you, except people who are like you, and those who are not like you make fun of you for your differences. You have the cause and effect reversed. Forsaken are abominations to natural order, and hence, find themselves casted out. They are not cast out and become abominations as a result.

    Nobody rejected Calia.
    Also not relevant. Being a good leader requires two main components. Ability and desire. Sylvanas was a leader before she was defeated and turned into the unique form of undead she was (sounds like a similar theme is afoot), and I can assure you, it was not because of her suffering, or her past history with Arthas, or the conditions upon which she became undead that made her the leader that she became.

    Infact she was welcomed with open arms by her friends in the alliance.
    And oddly enough, Lilian Voss reached out to her, after Sylvanas abandoned the forsaken, and the Horde, as a whole. When you are abandoned by the only leader you have known since becoming undead, and for the reason Sylvanas did, two things come to mind. The first and most obvious one, Sylvanas was a bad and selfish leader. Her concern was for herself. It did not matter to her how many others would need to die so that she could be maintained. The Forsaken does not need that form of leadership. The second, and most relevant fact is, Lilian Voss recognized this fact. She also recognized that the Forsaken needed to find a new way; one that had the hopes of bringing the Forsaken to peace with their position in the world, as opposed to being expendable commodities for a tyrant leader. Lilian herself stated this in a very serious and unambiguous way with her first meeting with Calia.

    Lilian Voss is in my opinion a much more fitting candidate for leadership...
    Interesting that this is brought up, and yet the first thing focused on is her decision as the de facto leader of the Forsaken to bring in help, as if it was somehow wrong.

    ...and I hope Blizzard will not just hamfist her onto the forsaken without any ingame connections for Forsaken players on her side.
    Uhh.... So, the fact that many of the people who ARE the Forsaken are people who she knew before their change. These are mostly her people. Calia was not unpopular among the people of Lordaeron. In fact, she was well known, and well-liked. And you speak of pain, so, how's this for experiencing pain? Her kingdom was brought to ruins by her own brother. Her father was taken down by that brother. She got to watch helplessly as her people were dying to some mysterious plague and come back as mindless undead. She died trying to help her people, and likely, the biggest reason for her hiding was because she was the rightful heir to the throne of Lordaeron, and ultimately, the one who slew her was the one who would be threatened by that claim. Calia may not be a military leader. At no point has she ever made her goal to lead the Forsaken to victory over the alliance. It is to help her people come to terms with what they are and help them carve out some new purpose for themselves that doesn't involve them being an expendable tool of war for a psychopath tyrant.

    Leave your 2 cents if you want to.
    Done. It's unfortunate that you will not be able to respond, but ultimately, I'm not sure that discussion would go anywhere but in circles, anyway. All I'm going to say is, I don't think Blizzard's plans for Calia will be anything short of in an advisory role for Lilian Voss as she edges her way to step out of her own uncertainties, and be the leader the Forsaken truly do need. I also believe at some point in Shadowlands, Calia is going to be revealed as Taelia's mother, and Bolvar Fordragon's wife.
    "The fatal flaw of every plan, no matter how well planned, is the assumption that you know more than your enemy."

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Your argument would make sense if we actually ever saw forsaken fans want calia. Because so far the only people who want her are the ones who always disliked that race.
    And people who want sylvanas/keep being genocidal are people who dislike all other races. They just want to keep shitting on others and never suffer in return.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    If they do nothing NOW then its too late for that. They should have stopped before BfA. They didnt so now they have to take action.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You never even played Alliance, how can you talk about knowing its plot and/or how races were changed to fit it?
    I would prefer extinction to the state we came to right now. Its humiliating and subhuman.
    are you missing the "the entire horde became red alliance" part?
    because its way more than anything "suffered" by the night elves
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  6. #246
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And people who want sylvanas/keep being genocidal are people who dislike all other races. They just want to keep shitting on others and never suffer in return.
    And how does that relates to forsaken and calia?

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    are you missing the "the entire horde became red alliance" part?
    because its way more than anything "suffered" by the night elves
    It may be funny but actually... aside from “horde becoming red Alliance” being an entirely false statement. They just stopped the war. For now. They dont pay any reparations or suffer any sanctions for that, aside from wrapping up sylvanas loyalists who are now complicit with a “world ending threat” mastermind and have to be wrapped up.

    So even IF i agree that horde became “red Alliance” then its even worse. People who genocided and slaughtered them are now “welcomed” and forgiven. Sickening.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Sylvanas didn't make them strong she used them as a human shield and she sabotaged their chance at meeting living loved ones again.

    Calia and the Forsaken were both betrayed by someone they knew and loved. Sure Calia survived but they both had the same experience of betrayal while Sylvanas was attacked and slain by a monster she really had no connection to.


    Also Calia is a "sexy" special undead with a boy toy. She's literally Sylvanas 2.0.

    Lillian Voss is a super undead who quickly bent the knee to Sylvanas for some reason. You really want a leader who betrays their ideals and just follows orders?
    bullshit, you know that sylvanas organized the forsaken and won the plaguelands civil wars, that repurposed them after the lk and let them became a major superpower. thats the fucking definition of making them strong. she has other interest, sure, it doesnt change a jack shit about the rest.

    yes, thats the entire base of the fanatism RP of the forsaken
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    And how does that relates to forsaken and calia?
    Calia is your “sobering pill”. But you want to remain drunk forever, which sadly is unrealistic.

  10. #250
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Calia is your “sobering pill”. But you want to remain drunk forever, which sadly is unrealistic.
    Erm what? What does that even mean?

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    bullshit, you know that sylvanas organized the forsaken and won the plaguelands civil wars, that repurposed them after the lk and let them became a major superpower. thats the fucking definition of making them strong. she has other interest, sure, it doesnt change a jack shit about the rest.

    yes, thats the entire base of the fanatism RP of the forsaken
    Then again - you just lost. Leave the premise and never return on a fear of death or imprisonment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Erm what? What does that even mean?
    You will understand when you are ready.

  12. #252
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This thread needs to settle down - make your points without insults or unnecessary sarcasm.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    It may be funny but actually... aside from “horde becoming red Alliance” being an entirely false statement. They just stopped the war. For now. They dont pay any reparations or suffer any sanctions for that, aside from wrapping up sylvanas loyalists who are now complicit with a “world ending threat” mastermind and have to be wrapped up.

    So even IF i agree that horde became “red Alliance” then its even worse. People who genocided and slaughtered them are now “welcomed” and forgiven. Sickening.
    exactly like the alliance, you know. who was entirely blamed for the cata and pandaria wars? varian or garrosh?
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    when she reemerged, she was a neutral character who helped both Alliance and Horde
    so did velen, and turalyon, and aleria, and many more characters, that are still alliance...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    Being a good leader requires two main components. Ability and desire.
    and Calia shown neither...

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Then again - you just lost. Leave the premise and never return on a fear of death or imprisonment.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You will understand when you are ready.
    and i choosed ""death""
    still i will forever complain about that 16 years old rp-cide
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    Interesting that this is brought up, and yet the first thing focused on is her decision as the de facto leader of the Forsaken to bring in help, as if it was somehow wrong.
    she can help, but not vecome leader after she started caring about "her people" five minutes ago after not giving a fuck for over a decade

  17. #257
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    You will understand when you are ready.
    Once again im not entirely sure what are you even talking about. Is it enlightenment or something? Or do you really think that you just know best and everyone should accept your point of view?

    Calia is the blandest character in entire IP and completely doesn't match everything that made forsaken forsaken. Im not sure what difficult to understand with people hating her.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because as i said before - Forsaken are narrative dead end. If they keep doing their usual "crazy torturer/blight nazi" jig they should die. Die as a race i mean. Horde has no reason to back up their madness anymore and their "big figure" aka Sylvanas is gone and actually gone in a way that makes them extra-fucked in the end. So they have to either QUICKLY tone down their omnicidal tendencies or face extinction. But of course narratively they cant die out so they have to somehow find a way to become more stable and less mass murdering.

    And they need a representative that everybody else will just... you know, see as good. Calia is a perfect PR face fallen to forsaken hands, their last hope, frankly speaking. Not because of how good of a ruler she is but because of how she will shield them from any kind of scrutiny or Alliance lashing out.
    We've gone over this in other threads, but to cut to the chase I heavily disagree and the Forsaken as people fucking over the Alliance every minute and appearing constantly is mostly player fiction. The Forsaken have next to no role in either Mists or Warlords and their only role in Legion is in a story that every side has a human reason to participate in - Genn to avenge his kingdom, the Forsaken to preserve their existence. Both their relationship with Lordaeron and the transhumanist elements of undeath were touched on in Vanilla and Cata but are nonexistent int he current direction and the role of fucking warrior spirits in tying the Forsaken to a faction based around spritualism and a warrior culture was also completely wasted. It's not that the Forsaken weren't able to cooperate or fit with the Horde - they did, it's not that they appeared constantly to fuck over Alliance - they didn't, it's that Blizzard didn't want to expand those aspects but instead decided to rewrote them as sad, sick humans who's entire backstory is bs. The only reason you or other people push for it isn't because the reasoning holds up to even elementary scrutiny or because you're desperately invested in Calia's story, but because it removes Sylvanas or things associated with her. That's fine, but that's really all it is. Calia is indefensible outside these aspects.

    I find Calia as Marie Antoinette a funny idea, but not intended. Ditto I don't mind the idea of royalists, living or dead, banding behind her opposite the extant Forsaken in a conflict. Hell, even her as a messiah figure trying to restore harmony to Lordaeron would be fine if she had any flaws to speak of and that her program had any opposition. The character is completely irredeemable in her present part due to her characterization, nature, means of introduction, etc. but the sole aspects that do resonate at all to even some aspects of the fandom, like Lordaeron, are as a result of old Forsaken/human lore and could have been applied were there will to do so.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-25 at 06:03 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And people who want sylvanas/keep being genocidal are people who dislike all other races. They just want to keep shitting on others and never suffer in return.
    what? i fucking loved cata quests where i have to defend forsaken territory from alliance assault, damn these were the best questline ever(less the kolthire survive, he should be executed like zelling)
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2021-01-25 at 06:02 PM.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Erm what? What does that even mean?
    that he is jackass trying to sound smart and failing miserably

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2021-01-25 at 06:18 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

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