Calia will ruin the forsaken

[Mehrunes]

They became one of the stronger powers of Azeroth because of the Horde. Which she only sided with to keep her ass alive longer. She also Knowingly cursed everyone she raised to a horrible second life and death.

She even betrayed her boytoy in the end.

Except for the part where there is barely any Horde presence in Forsaken territory in either Vanilla quests or post-Cata quests. The same applies to Forsaken missions in Howling Fjord and Stormheim. They conquered their enemies and built their position on their own, whether you want to cover your ears and eyes in regards to that fact or not.

[Okacz]

You dislike her because she isn't edgy and evil and thus the Forsaken won't be allowed to be edgy and evil should she truely lead them.

I mean... kinda? Why would you reinvent the wheel? Forsaken were introduced as race all about necromancy, subterfuge, blight and all this shit. They are the zombie race in WoW. If you pick it as the class that you play, you probably like those themes, or want them represented in your character. Isn't it better to get, you know, a proper Forsaken for the job?

Or I don't know, how about you introduce a drunken orcish lumberjack as the new Night Elf leader who associates with them because he's too been in a forest, and his ears are kinda pointy. Makes as much sense.

[AcidicSyn]

That's a weird thing to say... I get what you guys are talking about, but putting suffering on a scale is strange to me. I don't think suffering works like that, even in fiction.

Those are just the Death Knight players. Suffer Well friend.

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Yeah but that was in 2004.

Which is why I specified that blizzard would likely change it now.

[qwerty123456]

Except for the part where there is barely any Horde presence in Forsaken territory in either Vanilla quests or post-Cata quests. The same applies to Forsaken missions in Howling Fjord and Stormheim. They conquered their enemies and built their position on their own, whether you want to cover your ears and eyes in regards to that fact or not.

Yeah if you wanna ignore the fact that having powerful allies means less people are going to fuck with you or the fact that the Horde didn't just let them fend for themselves and even if she used her own people as cannon fodder instead of requesting guards from other species she still got resources from them.

are you speaking pre or post cata?
pre cata everyone was in suicide charge, even sylvanas herself
after, only garrosh used the forsaken as cannon fodder and sylvanas run from northrend to stop specifically his methods

Talking pre cata. Sylvanas has used the forsaken as soldiers since the beginning like Mehrunes mentions above. If she ever cared about them other than using them to protect her ass she would have had them in non combat roles only after joining the Horde. It would have then also made for a better conflict when Garrosh gets in charge and makes her go after Gilneas and shit. Suddenly the forsaken are forced to fight and die then you could eventually see her going Garrosh as maybe just trying to protect the forsaken first like Garrosh with the orcs only to find out nope she's been working with the jailer.

[Mehrunes]

Except that she watched the brother turn into an evil monster, killing her father, all her friends and family, destroying her home. Then loosing her child and husband while fleeing the Scourge, who are most likely dead as well now.

Yeah, she hasn't suffered at all! Not a bit. Give me a friggin break.

The only difference between Calia and Sylvanas is that different from the Banshee, Calia did not allow her own suffering to break her and become just as bad (and worse) as the evil forces that destroyed her life. She remained good, helping people as a Priest of the Light instead of obsessing over vengeance and crying over how horrible fate was to her while using that as an excuse to murder innocents.

Let's be honest. You don't dislike Calia because she hasn't suffered like the Forsaken, because she has. You dislike her because she isn't edgy and evil and thus the Forsaken won't be allowed to be edgy and evil should she truely lead them.

Oh, yeah, Calia totally suffered like the Forsaken. Losing a family (that was living a safe distance away from the lands ravaged by the Scourge and that she joined in safety, merrily abandoning her own people to rot in the land ruined by her brother) is totally the same as being turned into a puppet of the Lich King and then forced to be the one that kills your family, your loved ones, your friends and your entire nation. Yup, totally the same. And let's not forget all those people that suffered like the Forsaken when they got a paper cut, because the concept of scale apparently died in a ditch for the sake of convenience of honest Alliance narratives.

Yeah if you wanna ignore the fact that having powerful allies means less people are going to fuck with you or the fact that the Horde didn't just let them fend for themselves and even if she used her own people as cannon fodder instead of requesting guards from other species she still got resources from them.

The only think I'm ignoring here is your misinformation. Because all the people that wanted to fuck with the Forsaken continued to fight with them even after they joined the Horde all the same. It's almost as if the Horde that didn't send any help to the Forsaken (the "biggest" Horde expedition to Forsaken territory in Vanilla was a bunch of Orcs in Hillsbrad sent by Thrall to look for Taretha's necklace and the biggest expedition in Cata after Garrosh relinquished command of the Gilneas campaign was a bunch of drunk Orc sailors in Silverpine) wasn't exactly much of a deterrent. Just the opposite, the Alliance joined in on the fun in full scale as well.

[qwerty123456]

Oh, yeah, Calia totally suffered like the Forsaken. Losing a family (that was living a safe distance away from the lands ravaged by the Scourge and that she joined in safety, merrily abandoning her own people to rot in the land ruined by her brother) is totally the same as being turned into a puppet of the Lich King and then forced to be the one that kills your family, your loved ones, your friends and your entire nation. Yup, totally the same. And let's not forget all those people that suffered like the Forsaken when they got a paper cut, because the concept of scale apparently died in a ditch for the sake of convenience of honest Alliance narratives.




The only think I'm ignoring here is your misinformation. Because all the people that wanted to fuck with the Forsaken continued to fight with them even after they joined the Horde all the same. It's almost as if the Horde that didn't send any help to the Forsaken (the "biggest" Horde expedition to Forsaken territory in Vanilla was a bunch of Orcs in Hillsbrad sent by Thrall to look for Taretha's necklace and the biggest expedition in Cata after Garrosh relinquished command of the Gilneas campaign was a bunch of drunk Orc sailors in Silverpine) wasn't exactly much of a deterrent. Just the opposite, the Alliance joined in on the fun in full scale as well.

The Alliance didn't use the full force of its might to try and wipe out the Forsaken which the super powerful and god like Sylvanas repelled. That's just creepy fanfiction. The Alliance were easily able to get to Undercity twice and walk away when they were actually pissed at them.

[VladlTutushkin]

The Alliance didn't use the full force of its might to try and wipe out the Forsaken which the super powerful and god like Sylvanas repelled. That's just creepy fanfiction. The Alliance were easily able to get to Undercity twice and walk away when they were actually pissed at them.

You know whats actually funny about it? How horde always whines about “night elves asking for too much power creep” and yet forsaken apparently could beat entire Alliance might on their own since Cata and that is totally okay and normal and not at all an insane power creep fueled by plot armor... speaking about not looking in the mirror...

[Mehrunes]

Take Garrosh. Sylvanas disobeyed his direct order by using the Blight on Gilneas. Garrosh normally would have executed her on the spot for this, he is not one that lets such an offense go. Hell, he had Vol'jin assassinated for questioning his authority. But here? Naah, it's all cool, do what you like, Sylvie. We didn't really need that land anyway, our desert is bountiful, you go ahead and blight every piece of land we conquer, okay?

It took years for Garrosh to act on Vol'jin's flippant attitude. Also, not only where there no Orc witnesses to Gilneas, but the Forsaken can clean the Blight. Which they quite obviously did, as the city was clean by the time Black Dragonflight took it over.

And Thrall? I admit he is not as smart as Garrosh, but my gawwwd. Sylvanas spun a little story about being betrayed by Putress, batted her enormous eyebrows and immediatedly everyone believed her that during all the YEARS she was ruling the Undercity she had no clue about the Blight experiments.

The Horde already knew about the Blight BEFORE the Wrathgate FROM the Forsaken. And they were happy about having such a powerful weapon to use against the Scourge. So where do Alliance posters get this narrative that Sylvanas sold the Horde the story that she didn't even know about the Blight? And Sylvanas' "little story" was not only the truth, but it was corroborated by all the Forsaken refugees that were kicked out of Undercity by the Legion and their pawns. But yup, it's all because Sylvanas batted her eyebrows.

There is a big difference between being "troublesome" and being outright lying to the faction you ostensibly belong to, while in truth working on killing every living thing on the planet. Basically the Horde had to be turned into Sylvanas-Drones, because if they had gotten too smart they might have seen the Forsaken for what they are and done something about it.

This is not "variety", it is bending and breaking characters to accomodate players who want to play evuuul zombies in a game that is not meant for this.

For this point to make sense the Horde would have had to expose those Forsaken lies you're talking about (never mind that most of your examples are misfires). Which isn't exactly the case.

Not directly.

The Alliance simply took them as Scourge members and killed them on sight. Which is pretty realistic considering the Scourge was only barely over and the Forsaken were the exat same creatures (like in WC3 they literally have the exact same units) that ate the humans faces only month ago.
Would you ask a rotten zombie questions when it comes shambling up to your city or would you lob it's head off in case it was a left over from the horde that destroyed an entire Kingdom?

And before you think: "Awwww, those poor innocent souls, mistreated like that!" Remember that the Forsaken had already murderered Garithos and all his men at this point, betraying the deal they made with him. While the first was a bastard and surely deserved it, I cannot see how it is justified to murder his men (who hated him too).
Further remember that the only reason the Horde took them in is because they went crying to the Cows and made up a story of curing their condition, which they never had any intention of doing. They just needed a faction to hide behind so they wouldn't be wiped out.

Ah, this point again. Never mind that there is no known survivor of Garithos' men killed by Sylvanas for that to be a factor in how the Alliance responded to Sylvanas' envoys. Also, as per later lore the Tauren weren't fooled by the Forsaken and them thinking that the Forsaken could be revived came from them. And they didn't exclusively consider it in the literal sense, as they thought the Forsaken could at least be revived spiritually. And the Forsaken contacted the Horde only after winning the Civil War in the Plaguelands and securing their position in Lordaeron. Who was going to wipe them out? The Scarlet Crusade? The farmers from Hillsbrad? And given how Horde gave them no aid whatsoever because Thrall's only interest in Lordaeron was finding Taretha's necklace, how comes the Forsaken weren't wiped out anyway?

The Alliance didn't use the full force of its might to try and wipe out the Forsaken which the super powerful and god like Sylvanas repelled. That's just creepy fanfiction. The Alliance were easily able to get to Undercity twice and walk away when they were actually pissed at them.

You're arguing against your own straw-men at this point, as I said squat about the Alliance using their full force against them in order to wipe them out. I said the Alliance activity against them only increased after they joined the Horde. Which is a fact. Which is why you have to resort to this ineffective fallacies, as there is nothing you can actually argue against here.

Also, while the Alliance didn't use its full force, they still sent part of the 7th Legion, their most elite army, against them. They were wiped out. The Alliance fleet in Howling Fjord that attacked the Forsaken was also defeated. Both times by Forsaken acting alone. Against joint Alliance forces.

As for the Alliance walking to Undercity, the first time it happened was when the Forsaken weren't even in control of the zone. And the second time it was because Sylvanas wanted them to (and after she steamrolled the Night Elves). Because, you know, she tried to lure them into a deathtrap. Which they survived only because Jana pulled the ability to block Blight out of her ass, even though previously only Dreadlord magic was capable of such a feat. So unless Blizzard was being coy about the theory that Jaina is a Dreadlord, yay for Alliance plot armor?

[Aresk]

you guys should know that Forsaken is anything free willed undead: from Humans to High Elves to Nerubians to Trolls to Dwarves to Orcs to Night Elves to Banshees to Obsidian Statues

Sylvanas is fine as leader; Velonara could also be fine as leader; heck even Sira could be fine as a leader

You have free-willed undead who do not consider themselves Forsaken (e.g. Voss from Cata through Legion, almost all Death Knights, the san'layn), so I would disagree with that characterization of them. The Forsaken is a specific faction of undead, which recruited from free-willed undead, similar to the Ebon Blade being a specific faction of undead.

also, haven't seen an Alliance vs. Horde argument since like 3 months now; you guys should also know that Alliance isn't meant to be the good faction and the Horde isn't meant to be the evil faction. It's more like Alliance is law and order and Horde is chaos and permissibility where the Horde can be cruel to the cruel to look for peace and the Alliance can oppress others under the guise of peace, and other way around. I know the Horde did many evil things but the Alliance is yet to be held accountable for the Tyr's Hand massacre, the Stonespire genocide, and the Purge of Dalaran

I wouldn't expect the Alliance to be held accountable for the Purge of Dalaran, since it was an internal Kirin Tor affair that was specifically denounced by the High King. However, I would love for the dwarves to be held accountable for all the problems their Explorer's League caused, not just the Stonespire. I'd also like to add the despoiling of the taunka's ancestral land to that list, considering all the problems the gnomes caused in Borean Tundra. And the harm done to the Bilgewater Cartel during the sinking of Kezan.

[qwerty123456]

You're arguing against your own straw-men at this point, as I said squat about the Alliance using their full force against them in order to wipe them out. I said the Alliance activity against them only increased after they joined the Horde. Which is a fact. Which is why you have to resort to this ineffective fallacies, as there is nothing you can actually argue against here.

Also, while the Alliance didn't use its full force, they still sent part of the 7th Legion, their most elite army, against them. They were wiped out. The Alliance fleet in Howling Fjord that attacked the Forsaken was also defeated. Both times by Forsaken acting alone. Against joint Alliance forces.

As for the Alliance walking to Undercity, the first time it happened was when the Forsaken weren't even in control of the zone. And the second time it was because Sylvanas wanted them to (and after she steamrolled the Night Elves). Because, you know, she tried to lure them into a deathtrap. Which they survived only because Jana pulled the ability to block Blight out of her ass, even though previously only Dreadlord magic was capable of such a feat. So unless Blizzard was being coy about the theory that Jaina is a Dreadlord, yay for Alliance plot armor?

You claimed the forsaken did everything on their own and implied the Horde only hindered them. I then said they never faced the full might of the Alliance.

If you wanna talk about plot armor:

Forsaken and the Horde literally need to have the Alliances hands tied to win anything. Even needing magical catapults that never show up again. The Alliance has advanced space tech/mechs and a spaceship with a orbital death laser and yet didn't use them to stop Sylvanas's march on Teldrasil or wipe em out at the Undercity. Fighting a thousand year war against near immortal demons is no problem but a couple dudes in a mud hut impossibly hard to fight. They then needed a random voodoo ritual with no negative consequences to deal with the lightforged which they never used again. Countless factions tasked with preserving life have to put their heads in the sand and go neutral just to get a Horde win. Blizzard had to literally hand zones over to the Horde because it didn't make sense how they could have them in the first place but wanted a more balanced flow zone.

The Plague is the only power the Forsaken got. They even needed an asspull reason to get an undead super soldier to join them because otherwise they got jack shit.


Don't get me wrong I love the Horde but realistically they would have either been wiped out or forced to disband long ago.

[Gimlix]

Let's get rid of undead scum forever, claim back what is ours at last.

[omeomorfismo]

Yeah if you wanna ignore the fact that having powerful allies means less people are going to fuck with you or the fact that the Horde didn't just let them fend for themselves and even if she used her own people as cannon fodder instead of requesting guards from other species she still got resources from them.



Talking pre cata. Sylvanas has used the forsaken as soldiers since the beginning like Mehrunes mentions above. If she ever cared about them other than using them to protect her ass she would have had them in non combat roles only after joining the Horde. It would have then also made for a better conflict when Garrosh gets in charge and makes her go after Gilneas and shit. Suddenly the forsaken are forced to fight and die then you could eventually see her going Garrosh as maybe just trying to protect the forsaken first like Garrosh with the orcs only to find out nope she's been working with the jailer.

she never used the forsaken to protect herself, she was the first to put herself in danger, how you see in 3.3 dungeons. the entire faction goal was to take revenge of arthas, by any means.

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You claimed the forsaken did everything on their own and implied the Horde only hindered them. I then said they never faced the full might of the Alliance.

If you wanna talk about plot armor:

Forsaken and the Horde literally need to have the Alliances hands tied to win anything. Even needing magical catapults that never show up again. The Alliance has advanced space tech/mechs and a spaceship with a orbital death laser and yet didn't use them to stop Sylvanas's march on Teldrasil or wipe em out at the Undercity. Fighting a thousand year war against near immortal demons is no problem but a couple dudes in a mud hut impossibly hard to fight. They then needed a random voodoo ritual with no negative consequences to deal with the lightforged which they never used again. Countless factions tasked with preserving life have to put their heads in the sand and go neutral just to get a Horde win. Blizzard had to literally hand zones over to the Horde because it didn't make sense how they could have them in the first place but wanted a more balanced flow zone.

The Plague is the only power the Forsaken got. They even needed an asspull reason to get an undead super soldier to join them because otherwise they got jack shit.


Don't get me wrong I love the Horde but realistically they would have either been wiped out or forced to disband long ago.

you know the funny thing? that we passed months in antoran wastes and krokuun under tiny light shields to protect ourself from entire legion fleets, but apparently a tiny vessel with a shitty DEATH LASER1!1!1, with the best accoplishment being a hole in a door, cant be easily countered. because reasons!

[Th3Scourge]

Forsaken don't serve a purpose anymore. They haven't since Arthas was killed, or at most, when the Greymane wall fell. Besides, you have morons such as Steve Danuser trying to write some 5D chess storyline with a race that doesn't fit into modern wow lore.

Not because the Forsaken are bad, but because modern wow lore is dogshit now that all the OG boys are out of Blizzard

[omeomorfismo]

Forsaken don't serve a purpose anymore. They haven't since Arthas was killed, or at most, when the Greymane wall fell. Besides, you have morons such as Steve Danuser trying to write some 5D chess storyline with a race that doesn't fit into modern wow lore.

Not because the Forsaken are bad, but because modern wow lore is dogshit now that all the OG boys are out of Blizzard

isnt like that wrath was a masterpiece (or even tbc).
the wrathgate could be an awesome piece of narrative if they went with a forsaken putress pulling a fundamental blown to arthas instead the shitty BL coup.
everyone will still hate the forsaken, the forsaken could have their agency in arthas fall, blizz could mantain the shitty ashen virdict finale with a softer light ex machina. win win win

[Ardenaso]

You have free-willed undead who do not consider themselves Forsaken (e.g. Voss from Cata through Legion, almost all Death Knights, the san'layn), so I would disagree with that characterization of them. The Forsaken is a specific faction of undead, which recruited from free-willed undead, similar to the Ebon Blade being a specific faction of undead.

my bad, I mean anyone free-willed undead should be able to join them; always wanted to have a Human death knight on the ranks of the Forsaken since they're fundamentally and intrinsically the same. Perhaps a future Nathanos customization for Forsaken will do

IMO I don't see much difference on San'layn and Dark Ranger so I thought them having to prove their worth to join the Horde didn't make much sense; they're still the same undead elves; this is why I prefer if the Dark Ranger and San'layn customizations would be on Forsaken instead of Blood Elf

[Melusine]

she can help, but not vecome leader after she started caring about "her people" five minutes ago after not giving a fuck for over a decade

I suppose if you read further down, you'd notice I said that, already. She will be an advisor to Lilian Voss until she is ready to throw her hat in the ring and be the next leader of the Forsaken.

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so did velen, and turalyon, and aleria, and many more characters, that are still alliance...

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Funny thing about that. Because Thrall did this a couple times, too. So did Saurfang. So did Vol'jin. They are all Horde. Some things are just bigger than the squabblings between two factions.

and Calia shown neither...

What is it about bold assumptions that make people assume that, anyway? The fact that we don't know her means character development opportunity. That sort of close mindedness is how broad assumptions taint a character unfairly. And well, when you make assumptions, you make an ass out of you, and some guy named 'umption' with really has nothing to do with me at all.... Don't be that guy. Just stand back and see where it goes. Now, if she starts wasting through the mawsworn, and becomes critical to the defeat of the Jailer by the end, then you and I will be in the same position of calling bullshit, and shaking our heads that this is some serious bad overplaying of a character in WoW. Between us, though, I don't think she plans to lead them. She seems more intent on helping them. Why wouldn't she? Most of them are her people.

[Lolites]

Funny thing about that. Because Thrall did this a couple times, too. So did Saurfang. So did Vol'jin. They are all Horde. Some things are just bigger than the squabblings between two factions.

precisely my point, they did help Alliance, faction they are not a part of, but they didnt then candidate for king of stormwind, did they? no, they remained horde, or at best neutral, Calia can do the same

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I suppose if you read further down, you'd notice I said that, already. She will be an advisor to Lilian Voss until she is ready to throw her hat in the ring and be the next leader of the Forsaken.

if for the next 10y we have different leaders and in meantime she shows at least some leadership she might be candidate, until then shes worse option than mushroom vendor from UC
my issue is not with her becoming leader sometime far in the future, but now, as she shown no qualities or character worthy of a leader, only shown poor judgement (atending arathi) and hypocrisy (not caring about undead until becoming one)

[cocomen2]

There nothing worse than Night warrior gay-horse husband.

So anything Calia would be doing , its for the best.

[Lolites]

What is it about bold assumptions

until they retcon the hell out of her, she was hiding for over a decade while "her people" were suffering, and she didnt start caring until becoming undead herself...
as i said, after another 10y in which she shows some leadership qualities she might be leader, until then she shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentance as word "leader"

[Muxtar]

Please remind me which number studio is that now? There has been so many ex Blizz employees trying and failing in the past 20y, hard to remember them all.

There was not so many notable ex-Blizzard employees who founded their own companies through all these years. And certainly there was not a company that is founded by Mike Morhaime himself. I suppose you know who he is and what he meant for Blizzard for all these years of their peak progressing.

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Thank you for illustrating my point.

15 years of war (and even then we had many peaceful times as allies) is NOTHING. France and England have been in a literal Hundred Years' War and still they get along now. These things happen.

Did England became part of France (or vice versa)? I surelly missed that fact somehow.

As for the Hordies abandoning the game. *Shrug* . At least we can then explore different stories without those guys holding us back and forcing the Devs to accomodate their childish need for Alliance blood. If they can't accept change happening after 15 years of the same, then it is probably for the best if they leave.

And hey, they can always go and play Classic. No evil changes threatening them there!

Less players -> less income -> less resources of devs for 'exploring different stories' -> steady declining of the game (which is already happening atm btw).

It is called logic. And certainly it is not me who thinks as child here with all that 'they can go away, we will be better without them'.

Changes is good, changes is great. But forcing ideology of one half of playerbase onto another half is not change - it is suppression. And it brings nothing good, especially in the competitive market.

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As I pointed out before: This game is not meant to accomodate an evil race. The Forsaken were a mistake, made only so people like you can play "evuuul".

Well, this is just your opinion, but rapid rise of WoW during 2004-2010 with that 'evuuul' race within it proves otherwise.

None of the main plots make sense when the Player Character isn't on the good side of the spectrum.

Wrathgate says hello. You can have partly 'bad' race and not playing for the bad guys at the same time, imagine that.

Would a mighty Artifact weapon be given to a sociopath that enjoys killing the living? No.
Would Magni and Azeroth choose a mass murderer as their champion? No.
Would the Kirian work with a monster that kills for amusement? No. Neither would the Venthyr or Night Fae and even the Necrolords have a strict code of conduct.

Well, here I agree with you - because what Blizzard did with Sylvanas starting from BfA, is just plain awful writing.

Your evil Forsaken does not fit into the game's plot. No matter how much you fantasize about cutting Jaina's throat instead of saving her from Torghast it is never going to happen.

They do fit into the plot - into the adequate plot, which is not the case for 2 years now.