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  1. #301
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    There was not so many notable ex-Blizzard employees who founded their own companies through all these years. And certainly there was not a company that is founded by Mike Morhaime himself. I suppose you know who he is and what he meant for Blizzard for all these years of their peak progressing
    There was enough. As of 2016: https://i.imgur.com/2gkUuEz.png

    "Ex-Blizz devs will kill Blizz" is akin to "this MMORPG will be a WoW killer", so pardon my scepticism.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugnomo View Post
    Well thank you for extending that sentiment. I'll just insist on a small correction: I did enjoy the Forsaken before BTS. I have enjoyed them since Warcraft III. I just also enjoy Calia and whatever new aspects she may bring to them. I understand they're probably dissimilar aspects, I just have appreciation for both. I say "probably" because we've barely seen anything from Calia and what themes she may bring, which is why I also feel that it seems precocious to pigeonhole her already.
    I've outlined before why I don't consider that a viable argument to hold. Calia is not additive in any way - purely by existing in the context that she does, i.e a rewrite of what undeath actually entails, how the Forsaken have lived for fifteen years and the way every character interacts with her, on top of her complete paucity in any kind of flaw or compelling story hook to drive her forward means that it's either her or Forsaken lore as it was before. You can't have both. It's fine to prefer one to the other, but they are exclusive. You could conceivably have incredibly poorly motivated evil zombies along with her, but given that she solved the main problems of their existence within a few minutes and the problems they're upset about were fictional anyway in the current lore, it's a bit naff. She excises all that came before to replace it with something that scores of other races, be they humans or worgen most of all already deliver.

    That and every character she meets talking about how she's the best thing since sliced bread despite her doing absolutely bugger all got tiresome even before Shadowlands where she is Poochie-tier in how Bob and Thrall all proudly proclaim how much she's contributed and how wise she is despite her doing literally nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei
    While I disagree with your points above, I freely admit this is part fo my reasoning. Don't think I have ever hidden my dislike for the Forsaken, not because I dislike the race itself or want people to not have their RP. I dislike how they are implemented and think they just do not fit. They should not be part of the Horde, or any non-evil organisation, because that requires people around them to become blind and stupid. Yes, they have created a bit of conflict in the Horde, but by far too little for the things they have done and didn't do.

    Like how about the Cows asking how far the RAS got on that cure? Because that was kind of a thing when they recommend Thrall to let them join, but woops 15 years later and still no cure. Now I am not unfair, there most likely is no cure to be found, but since we know the RAS never even attempted to make one it is mighty convenient that the Cows never even asked, right?
    I heavily disagree and consider this take on the franchise absolutely pestilential, with the way it's reduced the Alliance and now Horde as homogenous blobs being the clearest evidence there with, not to mention it's yet another argument that completely fails to match up to scrutiny. The Forsaken have created oodles of conflict in the Horde and it's largely of the rational kind, most of all in Cataclysm where they're directly penalized for their activity and their whole plot is based around both them reclaiming their Lordaeron identity and what it means what with them being dead and the Horde simultaneously needing them for force projection in the Eastern Kingdoms and having to deal with how bankrupt the methods to do so actually are. It's good stuff and as already mentioned, when they aren't needed they don't put up. Given the way mages went from mystical and suspect to broadly tolerated, warlocks went from hiding in basements to getting personal endorsements from the king, dwarves went from imperialists who put whole tribes to the gun into Varian's orbiting sidekicks, without even getting me started on how anyone at all tolerates void elves, I'd say the Forsaken have been the most plausible morally iffy race introduced thus far. They were even more so back in Cataclysm, where half the races were in around that moral playing field and the conflict with the Alliance was actually a real one rather than based 100% on false pretext.

    As for the cows asking for where their sponsorship went, yeah, that's one angle I'd 100% regret more not being done with and Cataclysm would be right around the time. Ditto, despite the RAS actually being the ones to cure the Plague of Undeath in the Wrath pre-patch and saving everyone from zombification no one ever brings that up either. I know cackling, making monsters and shooting green goo is great fun, but while people taking (an inordinate) amount of umbrage with the Blight in-story, neither their original premise for joining nor the few times the story has remembered they're actual scientists have gotten any air time. Now it's too late and the RAS' characters have all fallen down a hole.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-26 at 11:52 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  3. #303
    Stood in the Fire Muxtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    There was enough. As of 2016: https://i.imgur.com/2gkUuEz.png

    "Ex-Blizz devs will kill Blizz" is akin to "this MMORPG will be a WoW killer", so pardon my scepticism.
    It is not akin in the slightest. As for so called 'WoW killers' I totally agree with you, but these companies (I mean especially Dreamhaven and Frost Giant) could for sure bring serious competition to WoW/other Blizzard products. And it will be for better, because now we see lazy writing and development from Blizzard as (nearly) monopolist in this game genre. Last serious effort put in WoW was in 2016 with Legion, because they shit a lot after WoD disaster. And after that it is all about laziness again.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Did England became part of France (or vice versa)? I surelly missed that fact somehow.
    They did (until very recently) both become part of the EU which is an Alliance of states, but the point I am not getting is:

    When did Alliance and Horde become part of each other? That has not happened, even if the meme's of a "Red Alliance" suggest it, none of those memes are grounded in any factual basis, so ... what are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Less players -> less income -> less resources of devs for 'exploring different stories' -> steady declining of the game (which is already happening atm btw).
    Well, yes, unless they go and play Classic. Blizz gets it's money and we get cool new content. The steady decline is a myth, you just want it to fail because you disagree with the recent changes. WoW is still the most successful MMO on the market 15 years into it's existance and will remain thus.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Changes is good, changes is great. But forcing ideology of one half of playerbase onto another half is not change - it is suppression. And it brings nothing good, especially in the competitive market.
    That is bullshit. The Horde started WoW as "Thrall's Horde" a factually "good" organisation ready to engage in diplomacy with the Alliance. If anything, the Forsaken pushed themselves onto the Horde and through their more then questionable conduct caused several huge problems.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Well, this is just your opinion, but rapid rise of WoW during 2004-2010 with that 'evuuul' race within it proves otherwise.
    Attributing 6 years of WoW success to the existance of the Forsaken? Uhm... no. There were several more reasons for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Wrathgate says hello. You can have partly 'bad' race and not playing for the bad guys at the same time, imagine that.
    That is just the thing. The Forsaken weren't "partly bad". They were are band of terrorists that enjoyed murdering innocents with shovels and chemical weapons while using the survivors to test even more powerful chemical weapons. Sylvanas personally oversaw the testing of the new blight on humans and enjoyed the excruciating death it caused.
    They are not grey, they are just as evil as the Legion, just not as succesful and with that kind of unrepentend evil they have no place in the player faction. It makes everyone else stupid for allowing them to keep existing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Well, here I agree with you - because what Blizzard did with Sylvanas starting from BfA, is just plain awful writing.
    Sylvanas has been on this road for faaaaar longer. The only difference is that her new evil acts are more open.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    They do fit into the plot - into the adequate plot, which is not the case for 2 years now.
    So, what you are saying is, you are right, because the canon plot is wrong?

  5. #305
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    The amount of shilling that Calia gets from writers as of late is absolutely disgusting, and cements her #$&@ty creator's pet status.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I've outlined before how I fundamentally disagree and consider this take on the franchise absolutely pestilential, with the way it's reduced the Alliance and now Horde as homogenous blobs
    I mainly think that for the different races to be ...well... different it does not require one of them to go completely out of its way to be psychopathicly evil. Conflict can arise from much less then that. If the Forsaken were actually a grey race with merits and faults like a well written character I would probably love them, but they simply are not. They are evil and unapologetically so, because that is what Sylvanas taught them to be and encouraged. They act out of hate, jealousy and pure delight in causing death and destruction so that others will share their fate.

    This is not a discription that fits a player race. Transcribe it onto a round of D&D. There is a Chaotic/Neutral Good Party (Thrall's Horde) and one player decides to go full on Chaotic Evil and just murder hobos some random NPCs whenever they get the itch. How long could that dynamic work out before the GM is forced tp kill the CE player or the group does? This is not the kind of conflict you want to tell a story.

    And the only reason that it has been going on for so long is that Blizzard can't remove a player race once it is implemented. They are aware how bad an idea it was, hence why they are trying to change things now and project all the bad stuff of the Forsaken onto Sylvanas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    The Forsaken have created oodles of conflict in the Horde and it's largely of the rational kind, most of all in Cataclysm where they're directly penalized for their activity
    I feel you are overstating how much they were penalized. They were literally murdering innocents in weapon experimnts and cut up bodies to make abominations, that is not some grey area we are talking. Any other group or faction that has engaged in these or similar things has been wiped out and rightly so. Thrall's cute measure of having Korkron patrol the UC was laughable and Garrosh did not punish Sylvanas' insubordination and outright mockery of his authority at all.

    As I keep saying, with their race's traits and character the only reason they still exist is that they are a player race. They are not better then the Scourge, the Legion or anyone and without that out-of-character justification of their existence they would have been wiped out years ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Oh, yeah, Calia totally suffered like the Forsaken. Losing a family (that was living a safe distance away from the lands ravaged by the Scourge and that she joined in safety, merrily abandoning her own people to rot in the land ruined by her brother) is totally the same as being turned into a puppet of the Lich King and then forced to be the one that kills your family, your loved ones, your friends and your entire nation. Yup, totally the same. And let's not forget all those people that suffered like the Forsaken when they got a paper cut, because the concept of scale apparently died in a ditch for the sake of convenience of honest Alliance narratives.

    Sometimes I really wonder about you... loosing a child, husband and father is nothing, I guess? Like a paper cut, huh? Well, it would probably be different if she had been a Horde member right? Then noone could ever understand her deep suffering. May the Banshee forgive my persumptiveness.

    And let us not friggin forget that Calia lost just as much as the Forsaken, since SURPRISE she lost Lordaeron too. All, friends and family went with it. Yes, she did not die and become a ghoul, but just because of that does not mean her suffering wasn't just a horrible as the Forsaken's. I really shouldn't be surprised by your posts anymore, since there really is nothing you would not write to put Horde characters on a pedestal.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    I mainly think that for the different races to be ...well... different it does not require one of them to go completely out of its way to be psychopathicly evil. Conflict can arise from much less then that. If the Forsaken were actually a grey race with merits and faults like a well written character I would probably love them, but they simply are not. They are evil and unapologetically so, because that is what Sylvanas taught them to be and encouraged. They act out of hate, jealousy and pure delight in causing death and destruction so that others will share their fate.

    And the only reason that it has been going on for so long is that Blizzard can't remove a player race once it is implemented. They are aware how bad an idea it was, hence why they are trying to change things now and project all the bad stuff of the Forsaken onto Sylvanas.
    As said, your take is wrong additionally in the sense that every other race was completely neutered over the years, some more thoroughly than others. At the time the Forsaken were introduced, their actions were less morally reprehensible than pretty much any dwarven activity in Kalimdor and humans had a policy of actual torching Forsaken hearts in pyres on top of being not a kingdom run by an infallible god child, but a barely functional venal state where an impotent regent was caught between a magical conspiracy in a black dragon at court and later the still extant corrupt nobility. The Forsaken weren't even out of bounds in Cataclysm, given the general shift of the Horde towards a more aggressive direction and that the risk to them was still existential. Even in this very expansion, void elves punt diplomats to suffer in hell and no one brings it up. The morality of the race being a disqualifying measure is the product of monumental asspain over Sylvanas joined by the gradual elimination of everyone who's not some variant of lawful good from the setting, and that's if we accept the already false premise that there's anything wrong with a morally reprehensible playable group in the first place.

    This is not a discription that fits a player race. Transcribe it onto a round of D&D. There is a Chaotic/Neutral Good Party (Thrall's Horde) and one player decides to go full on Chaotic Evil and just murder hobos some random NPCs whenever they get the itch. How long could that dynamic work out before the GM is forced tp kill the CE player or the group does? This is not the kind of conflict you want to tell a story.
    You are quite right that such a playable race wouldn't fit, so it's a good thing your take on what they are is laughably wrong. First in the delusion that Sylvanas induced this rather than being carried by it, given her constant betrayal by people eviler than thou who also gathered constituencies willing to fight for them against her, unlike the wastes of space they are now who don't oppose even her caricatural incarnation in BFA. Second, their goals explicitly had nothing to do with world conquest and you kill everyone who pushes an omnicidal take, usually in quests given by Forsaken NPCs. Their goal is to secure their backyard and their own existence, which they do at the end of Cataclysm, hence why Sylvanas opposes expansion. That and Thrall's Horde was a staggering bore that could only generate storytelling potential once it was artificially had flaws into it in Wrath that gave its messiah figure some actual dynamism and the trolls and tauren something to do besides being orcish mini-mes.

    The only correct portion of your comment is the last one in that the heads at Blizzard regret not fully neutering the Horde in BFA when they turned the orcs into a race of eunuchs lacking a single lasting character and needed to finish the job for the Forsaken and goblins and they did act upon this deliberately because they no longer want to deliver the experience they provided and sold for upwards of fifteen years.

    Consult my comparison between Calia and Bob on the extent of her suffering.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-26 at 01:51 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    And let us not friggin forget that Calia lost just as much as the Forsaken, since SURPRISE she lost Lordaeron too. All, friends and family went with it. Yes, she did not die and become a ghoul, but just because of that does not mean her suffering wasn't just a horrible as the Forsaken's. I really shouldn't be surprised by your posts anymore, since there really is nothing you would not write to put Horde characters on a pedestal.
    are you really putting as similar losing your family to watching yourself compelled to murdering your family? because thats the difference between standard pre cata-forsaken and calia.
    cata forsaken are different sure, but at this point we are reaching transhumanist discourse that are completely retconned with these sadsacks nu undead
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    For this point to make sense the Horde would have had to expose those Forsaken lies you're talking about (never mind that most of your examples are misfires). Which isn't exactly the case.
    Which is exactly my point. They did not expose them because they were intentionally made too stupid to see them for what they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Ah, this point again. Never mind that there is no known survivor of Garithos' men killed by Sylvanas for that to be a factor in how the Alliance responded to Sylvanas' envoys. Also, as per later lore the Tauren weren't fooled by the Forsaken and them thinking that the Forsaken could be revived came from them. And they didn't exclusively consider it in the literal sense, as they thought the Forsaken could at least be revived spiritually. And the Forsaken contacted the Horde only after winning the Civil War in the Plaguelands and securing their position in Lordaeron. Who was going to wipe them out? The Scarlet Crusade? The farmers from Hillsbrad? And given how Horde gave them no aid whatsoever because Thrall's only interest in Lordaeron was finding Taretha's necklace, how comes the Forsaken weren't wiped out anyway?
    I did not say that the Alliance knew of Sylvanas slaughter party. The reason for the killing of the envoys was that they were Scourge to anyone that saw them and killing them was the safest route to take. The only sentient undead the humans encountered were Liches and the other higher servants of the Lich King. After years of fighting against those anyone would understand why they immediatedly killed all undead that came to their cities. The Death Knights only survived setting foot in SW and Orgrimmar because Tirion vauched for them and even then they were treated like the pest itself.
    A smart leader might have send a letter first to, you know, explaining the situation. But Sylvanas probably wanted those envoys to die. It definately helped her propaganda.

    My point with Garithos was aimed at people like you who would defend the Forsaken and point fingers at the Humans for killing them. Because they were anything but innocent after the mass murder they took part in.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Which is exactly my point. They did not expose them because they were intentionally made too stupid to see them for what they are.



    I did not say that the Alliance knew of Sylvanas slaughter party. The reason for the killing of the envoys was that they were Scourge to anyone that saw them and killing them was the safest route to take. The only sentient undead the humans encountered were Liches and the other higher servants of the Lich King. After years of fighting against those anyone would understand why they immediatedly killed all undead that came to their cities. The Death Knights only survived setting foot in SW and Orgrimmar because Tirion vauched for them and even then they were treated like the pest itself.
    A smart leader might have send a letter first to, you know, explaining the situation. But Sylvanas probably wanted those envoys to die. It definately helped her propaganda.

    My point with Garithos was aimed at people like you who would defend the Forsaken and point fingers at the Humans for killing them. Because they were anything but innocent after the mass murder they took part in.
    the fucking envoy was exactly that, because you know, the only living survivors were probably some mindcontrolled ogre, that you know, would even be received worse than the envoy.
    or you think that sylvanas could send an email?
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You are quite right that such a playable race wouldn't fit, so it's a good thing your take on what they are is laughably wrong. First in the delusion that Sylvanas induced this rather than being carried by it, given her constant betrayal by people eviler than thou
    Again, I feel I have to bring up how she personally ordered and supervised the testing of the Blight on some human girl and took great pleasure in it, just like the RAS guy that administered the Blight and I don't think this was the first or only human they murdered in that lab, do you? Later she murdered Nathanos' completely innocent nephew to restore her boy toys body and those are just two of her personal deeds. Is this seriously not evil enough in your eyes? How is this not inducing this kind of behaviour? She literally ordered it and the Forsaken gladly did as they were told.

    Yes she has been betrayed by even more extreme factions of her people, but that is like Vader being betrayed by Palpatine. Just because one mass murderer betrays another does not make the first any less despicable or any less deserving of death.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Again, I feel I have to bring up how she personally ordered and supervised the testing of the Blight on some human girl and took great pleasure in it, just like the RAS guy that administered the Blight and I don't think this was the first or only human they murdered in that lab, do you? Later she murdered Nathanos' completely innocent nephew to restore her boy toys body and those are just two of her personal deeds. Is this seriously not evil enough in your eyes? How is this not inducing this kind of behaviour? She literally ordered it and the Forsaken gladly did as they were told.

    Yes she has been betrayed by even more extreme factions of her people, but that is like Vader being betrayed by Palpatine. Just because one mass murderer betrays another does not make the first any less despicable or any less deserving of death.
    That'd be a relevant point if I made any argument about Sylvanas or the Forsaken not being evil or not ordering the RAS to create the Plague, but that's not my point. My point is that Sylvanas didn't make the Forsaken be dickheads, their undead state, the reaction to them, what they went through and, this is the key part - their own flaws and grievances made them what they are. Sylvanas played upon that and put it in a direction, but up until the moment of her death, her only abiding goal was to kill Arthas and off herself. She never planned for a new world order before or after, that was something the Forsaken were up for on their lonesome. Hell, it's so much so not her goal that even when she becomes a world baddie and quits the Forsaken that's not the motivation they use for her.

    The RAS faction under Putress and those with him did genuinely want to kill everyone else out of misanthropy and were a sufficiently large group that they were able to evict Sylvanas from the Undercity. Rinse and repeat with Galen, Godfrey, Stillwater, etc. In turn, while the Forsaken were dickheads without Sylvanas with her only giving them the organisation and leadership to succeed at it, the actual playable group of Forsaken were never omnicidal. You kill more Forsaken who try to do so in Forsaken-focused quests than you do as Alliance, which admittedly is part of the problem since Alliance-maining players don't see any of the internal dynamics.

    The overarching point is that the Forsaken and even Sylvanas herself for the vast majority of her time as a character were not omnicidal but had an abiding motive to continue existing and acted upon it, within the Horde that they were dependant on politically. In turn, that while they were by a marginal degree the most evil group in Vanilla and by a heavier one in Cataclysm, that is not a relevant point and there's nothing wrong with having a playable race fill that niche, provided that others have a chance to fight them on it and that in their own stories they maintain an identifiable motivation to act the way they do.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-01-26 at 02:31 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    the fucking envoy was exactly that, because you know, the only living survivors were probably some mindcontrolled ogre, that you know, would even be received worse than the envoy.
    or you think that sylvanas could send an email?
    Surprisingly enough people were able to send mail without computers and human messengers for thousands of years.

    Even discounting the thousands of magical MAILBOXES we use every day and the Postmaster actually revealed as an existing character, there are pigeons and other birds.
    Hell, with her skills she could have shot a friggin arrow with a letter from Hillsbrad right into the Keeps Throneroom. Or she could have paid some kid a silver to deliver it, it's not like her personal appearance was preventing her from approaching the living.
    Or ... and now I get crazy I know. She could have gone her friggin self. Since apart from her skin colour she looked and still looks absolutely pristine and no one would think her an undead if they did not know, plus her name would still carry weight from the time she was a High Elf of the Alliance.

    There was no need at all to risk the life of one of her people on the low chance that the humans would not attack that shambling corpse coming at them.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Again, I feel I have to bring up how she personally ordered and supervised the testing of the Blight on some human girl and took great pleasure in it, just like the RAS guy that administered the Blight and I don't think this was the first or only human they murdered in that lab, do you? Later she murdered Nathanos' completely innocent nephew to restore her boy toys body and those are just two of her personal deeds. Is this seriously not evil enough in your eyes? How is this not inducing this kind of behaviour? She literally ordered it and the Forsaken gladly did as they were told.
    Sylvanas wasn't an outlier in forsaken society though, they were just as cold as she was in quite a few cases worse, those that rebelled against her usually did, because she was too soft in their eyes. She was a standard forsaken that is the key here.

  15. #315
    Stood in the Fire Muxtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    They did (until very recently) both become part of the EU which is an Alliance of states, but the point I am not getting is:

    When did Alliance and Horde become part of each other? That has not happened, even if the meme's of a "Red Alliance" suggest it, none of those memes are grounded in any factual basis, so ... what are you talking about?
    Horde is indeed a Red Alliance atm, because all its rulers are Alliance lovers or at least sympathizers - Baine, Thrall, Lor'Thremar, Thalyssra. Just check the recent lore and you'll find proofs.

    Well, yes, unless they go and play Classic. Blizz gets it's money and we get cool new content. The steady decline is a myth, you just want it to fail because you disagree with the recent changes. WoW is still the most successful MMO on the market 15 years into it's existance and will remain thus.
    Some may go play Classic, some may not. If everything was as good as you wish it to be, Blizzard wouldn't have had to hide sub numbers, and panickly announce Legion 4 months before its scheduled date.
    In 2007 Nokia too was the best cell phone company we ever had, and we could't even imagine it would bite the dust just few years later.

    That is bullshit. The Horde started WoW as "Thrall's Horde" a factually "good" organisation ready to engage in diplomacy with the Alliance. If anything, the Forsaken pushed themselves onto the Horde and through their more then questionable conduct caused several huge problems.
    Thrall's Horde wasn't ready to make peace with Alliance, although there were not an open war between them as well. It was tentative and relative peace of two equal factions, not this Alliancization of Horde that we see now.


    Attributing 6 years of WoW success to the existance of the Forsaken? Uhm... no. There were several more reasons for that.
    Of course there were more reasons to success, but presence of option to play for 'shady' guys as Forsaken were portrayed, added its part.

    That is just the thing. The Forsaken weren't "partly bad". They were are band of terrorists that enjoyed murdering innocents with shovels and chemical weapons while using the survivors to test even more powerful chemical weapons. Sylvanas personally oversaw the testing of the new blight on humans and enjoyed the excruciating death it caused.
    They are not grey, they are just as evil as the Legion, just not as succesful and with that kind of unrepentend evil they have no place in the player faction. It makes everyone else stupid for allowing them to keep existing.
    And these players - who hate Forsaken with passion - are rooting for Calia as their leader. Enough said.


    Sylvanas has been on this road for faaaaar longer. The only difference is that her new evil acts are more open.
    While she never was goody-good as you precious pony-tailed savior, she wasn't portrayed as saturday morning cartoon villain as well. Her actions had logic and reasons, although twisted ones. But from BfA onwards writers just started destroying all reasons for playing for Horde and Forsaken in particular. Just that fact that Golden is open Anduin-lover, explains a lot.

    So, what you are saying is, you are right, because the canon plot is wrong?
    Canon plot is dumbass shitfest starting with BfA, and that opinion is shared among many many WoW players.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The RAS faction under Putress and those with him did genuinely want to kill everyone else out of misanthropy and were a sufficiently large group that they were able to evict Sylvanas from the Undercity. Rinse and repeat with Galen, Godfrey, Stillwater, etc. In turn, while the Forsaken were dickheads without Sylvanas with her only giving them the organisation and leadership to succeed at it, the actual playable group of Forsaken were never omnicidal.
    But you see, this is just what I mean. I even wrote it earlier somewhere. The Player Character is not one of the evil Forsaken, because the plot does not work when they are. That is a canonical fact. They surely have issues, to put it mildly, but they are not hellbent on murder and mayhem. The question is, is the PC an example of how the Forsaken are? Because most Forsaken players here seem to not agree to that. @omeomorfismo here famously stated he wants his character to be a "sick sociopath". So is the PC an exception to the rule, because the Forsaken could not be intergrated into the plot otherwise? This would basically confirm that they are unfit to be part of the Horde's story.
    If however the folks here are all wrong and the Forsaken PC is not a psychopathic killer, then I don't see what the problem with Calia is. Obviously Sylvanas would be a bad ruler in the eyes of someone like that and a change to a more positive personality would be welcome.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Surprisingly enough people were able to send mail without computers and human messengers for thousands of years.

    Even discounting the thousands of magical MAILBOXES we use every day and the Postmaster actually revealed as an existing character, there are pigeons and other birds.
    Hell, with her skills she could have shot a friggin arrow with a letter from Hillsbrad right into the Keeps Throneroom. Or she could have paid some kid a silver to deliver it, it's not like her personal appearance was preventing her from approaching the living.
    Or ... and now I get crazy I know. She could have gone her friggin self. Since apart from her skin colour she looked and still looks absolutely pristine and no one would think her an undead if they did not know, plus her name would still carry weight from the time she was a High Elf of the Alliance.

    There was no need at all to risk the life of one of her people on the low chance that the humans would not attack that shambling corpse coming at them.
    yes thanks people holding these mails, aka the envoy.

    pigeon and bird (or arrows) for continental travel? pigeon and bird in a fucking apocalyptic dead environment? pigeon and bird used by a dark ranger thats started to use dark magic specifically because the nature was repealed by her? paid who? the people in hillsbrad that the first think they do was murdering forsaken civilians (vanilla wanted quests)? the forest trolls in the hinterlands?
    yes, you get very crazy even because even sylvanas smell fucking dead, with her skin completely dessicated and the nature that literally die arounds undeads. then sure, a leader that go for diplomacy for months of travel when her kingdom is in the middle of constant danger, yes sure, totally realistic.
    you want have a point? at least base that with some solid argument
    ...
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2021-01-26 at 03:00 PM.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Horde is indeed a Red Alliance atm, because all its rulers are Alliance lovers or at least sympathizers - Baine, Thrall, Lor'Thremar, Thalyssra. Just check the recent lore and you'll find proofs.
    So is the Alliance a Blue Horde then because we are not currently trying to murder you all? Because this is the kind of exageration I meant. Pure memes and headcannon stated as fact. Proof is something else entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Thrall's Horde wasn't ready to make peace with Alliance, although there were not an open war between them as well. It was tentative and relative peace of two equal factions, not this Alliancization of Horde that we see now.
    They allowed Jaina to build her city a stone's throw from their capital. Sounds very peaceful to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    And these players - who hate Forsaken with passion - are rooting for Calia as their leader. Enough said.
    Or, like me, they favour a coherent world building and consequent story and find the enjoyment of a small group of folks that need to act out their inner super villain an acceptable cost. Again what you do in your headcannon does not interest me. Enjoy it, but it is not the canon story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    While she never was goody-good as you precious pony-tailed savior, she wasn't portrayed as saturday morning cartoon villain as well. Her actions had logic and reasons, although twisted ones. But from BfA onwards writers just started destroying all reasons for playing for Horde and Forsaken in particular. Just that fact that Golden is open Anduin-lover, explains a lot.
    Her actions had the logic and reason of a sociopath that cared for nothing and no one but herself, read Edge of Night, read the Lich King book. Accept. Her character did not change one bit since then, only the scale of her crimes.
    Even now where she is literally trying to destroy the universe and talks about how she will free us, everyone knows she does it for herself and no one else. She thinks fate has been unfair to her so instead of accepting that she will destroy everyone lifes. You can't be more selfish and self-centered then that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Canon plot is dumbass shitfest starting with BfA, and that opinion is shared among many many WoW players.
    Just because many people agree does not make it a fact. Especially on the internet. Most of these people are just sore they weren't allowed to destroy the Alliance for good in BFA and want their Dark Lady back.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    yes thanks people holding these mails, aka the envoy.

    pigeon and bird (or arrows) for continental travel?
    Continental travel from the Eastern Plaguelands to SW? Uhm...

    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    pigeon and bird in a fucking apocalyptic dead environment?
    Far as I know they are unfortunately not confined to that area, so grab a bird from somewhere else?

    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    pigeon and bird used by a dark ranger thats started to use dark magic specifically because the nature was repealed by her? paid who? the people in hillsbrad that the first think they do was murdering forsaken civilians (vanilla wanted quests)? the forest trolls in the hinterlands?
    Since she was quite able to destroy Hillsbrad and kidnap many humans for her Blight experiments, here is an idea: Send one of them with a message to SW. Just try not to torture them too much first, might make a bad impression.

    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    yes, you get very crazy even because even sylvanas smell fucking dead, with her skin completely dessicated and the nature that literally die arounds undeads.
    1) She actually does not smell badly. I think it was in Dark Mirror where that is mentioned. I can't fully remember if she used some flower perfume or did not smell at all, but it was not the smell of decay, which only makes sense since she does not decay.
    2) Her skin is dessicated? Which cinematics did you watch? She has no worse skin then any Night Elf, apart from that mascara burned into her cheeks maybe.

    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    then sure, a leader that go for diplomacy for months of travel when her kingdom is in the middle of constant danger, yes sure, totally realistic.
    you want have a point? at least base that with some solid argument
    ...
    She barely had a kingdom at that point and if she really needed and wanted allies then yes that would make sense.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Continental travel from the Eastern Plaguelands to SW? Uhm...



    Far as I know they are unfortunately not confined to that area, so grab a bird from somewhere else?



    Since she was quite able to destroy Hillsbrad and kidnap many humans for her Blight experiments, here is an idea: Send one of them with a message to SW. Just try not to torture them too much first, might make a bad impression.



    1) She actually does not smell badly. I think it was in Dark Mirror where that is mentioned. I can't fully remember if she used some flower perfume or did not smell at all, but it was not the smell of decay, which only makes sense since she does not decay.
    2) Her skin is dessicated? Which cinematics did you watch? She has no worse skin then any Night Elf, apart from that mascara burned into her cheeks maybe.



    She barely had a kingdom at that point and if she really needed and wanted allies then yes that would make sense.
    yes, thats what a (trans-)continental travel is. or you think really that undercity-stormwind are at 20 minute of distance like in game?

    forsaken area was tirisfal, thats all. not even silverpine, that is conquered only during vanilla-cata. and silverpine was dead, the rest of the plaguelands are fucking imba dead and the mountains were full of ogres and frostwolfs.
    but anyway no forsaken could even train an animal to begin (other than "cute" giant bats and in cata spiders) because you know, the entire point of being an undead is to be prophanity against nature.
    and destroy hillbrad? at vanilla time the entire forsaken presence was just tarren mill, and the first thing the human did was infact hunting them (these parents with the forks in the forsaken presentation should come somewhere)

    1)the entire sylvanas body is full of embalming stuff (or at least in the arthas book)
    2)arthas book, even "In the Shadow of the Sun" note that his skin is full of cracks

    she had at least the entirety of capitol city, brill and bulwark (or whatever Varimathras and detheroc camps were)
    but still, the problem here is that not even tirisfal was secured until vanilla, no way that a leader could left the area considering that she even had to hold the varimathras' leash short....

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    This would basically confirm that they are unfit to be part of the Horde's story.
    thats true, thats the entire point because we start as neutral with other horde's races. because the alliance is only convenient for both. but the story and methods are completely different
    Last edited by omeomorfismo; 2021-01-26 at 04:53 PM.
    12/6/2009 -23/11/2020 rip little deathstalker Ferretti. proud forsaken, enemy of the livings

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyhil622 View Post
    That's the point, they don't lol. And they don't care about the reasons people are saying here in this thread.
    The forsaken excists out of a bunch of differnt undead. Not just humans. I understand this was always the thing of former lordearon humans etc. But I feel this is just outdated as hell, back in wrath undercity was swarming with dark rangers out of nowhere for example.

    They are outcasts and everyone was/is welcome. Even the san layn were in talks with sylvanas about joining.

    That being said, now that she is gone, a better representive leader that is actually one you play might feel a bit better in the end cus people always want to look like their leaders.

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