Calia will ruin the forsaken

[Muxtar]

And your Red Alliance obviously is not, right? Not to mention that I did not even remotely invent this meme. The "Blue Warchief" is as old as the title High King.

Never heard of it here or anywhere else.

1) Of course Kul'Tiras was part of the Alliance, BUT Daelins expedition wasn't sanctioned by the rest of the Alliance and if you read what I wrote then you will realize that is what I said.
2) Jaina was the inofficial leader of what was left of the Alliance (of Lordaeron) because King Terenas was dead and Stormwind was not yet in the picture.

Daelin can go wherever he wants without any sanctions of Stormwind or w/e else, he will still remain rightful king of Alliance nation Kul Tiras. And he was killed while being a king. And Jaina never claimed succession from Lordaeron, nor she had any right to do it as well.
I don't see what worth arguing about here. It is all plain as day.

Sylvanas digusted with the Forsaken only able to stand their presence because they give her power:

"Before her waited a grotesque, quivering mass of corpses, their armor piecemeal, their bodies broken, the stench unimaginable. Their plaintive, desperate gazes reminded her suddenly of children. They disgusted her. But their need empowered her" - Edge of Night, Page 3

Sylvanas on how she really feels about the Forsaken after Arthas was dead:

"They had been honed into the perfect weapon. Her weapon. And they had struck the killing blow for which she had built them. She cared nothing for their fate.

"Let them perish!" Sylvanas cried. "I am finished with them!"", Edge of Night, Page 4

Sylvanas musing on how the Forsaken are there for her personal protection:

"The army of undead that surrounded and protected the Dark Lady was still hers, body and soul. But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore. They were a bulwark against the infinite. They were to be used wisely, and no fool orc would squander them while she still walked the world of the living." - Edge of Night, Page 7

Here the link to the full story, if this was not enough: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/st...nas-windrunner

Well, credit where its due - you are certainly right here. We don't know how she felt about her fellow Forsaken later - during Cata-BfA, but I doubt it would be much different.

[Aresk]

Well, right after Jaina arrived to Kalimdor. She was just a head of bunch of Lordaeron refugees, there was no Theramore yet and no established relations with Stormwind or other kingdoms.

She was an agent of Dalaran, tasked by Antonidas himself (in Rise of the Lich King), in charge of factions of troops from Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, and Stromgarde (in WC3). Members included elven, dwarven, and even gnome refugees (according to Chronicle). The forces there were gathered from multiple Alliance groups and tasked by the head of an Alliance city-state in an effort to spare as much of the Alliance from Arthas's attacks as possible. They aren't void as members of the Alliance just because they sailed across the ocean.

[Muxtar]

She was an agent of Dalaran, tasked by Antonidas himself (in Rise of the Lich King), in charge of factions of troops from Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul Tiras, and Stromgarde (in WC3). Members included elven, dwarven, and even gnome refugees (according to Chronicle). The forces there were gathered from multiple Alliance groups and tasked by the head of an Alliance city-state in an effort to spare as much of the Alliance from Arthas's attacks as possible. They aren't void as members of the Alliance just because they sailed across the ocean.

She never was in charge of troops. She was initially sent as help to Arthas (WC3 campaign), and then she stayed with Uther after their division with Arthas before The Culling. After Arthas success - when kingdoms of Lordaeron and Dalaran ceased to exist - she just led bunch of refugees from these two kingdoms without any official status, and that's all.

E.g.: Syrian refugees in Europe doesn't have the authority to represent anywhere the state of Syria itself, they are just refugees. Same logic.

[Melusine]

until they retcon the hell out of her, she was hiding for over a decade while "her people" were suffering, and she didnt start caring until becoming undead herself...
as i said, after another 10y in which she shows some leadership qualities she might be leader, until then she shouldnt even be mentioned in the same sentance as word "leader"

Again, you don't know that. The fact that she showed up, even though doing so was a really bad idea, at Arathi Highlands shows me she actually does care.

There is another character outside of the game that has a similar plight to Calia's. Danaerys Targaryen. Up until the last season of Game of Thrones, she was in exile across the sea. Why? Because she was supposed to be dead. Before she decided to go all Attila the Hun on King's Landing, most thought she may have been a good leader for her people. That's where the similarities end. Up to that point, she seemed to very much care about the people of Westeros, and I believe she did, until her character was changed so much, that instead of being a liberator, she became a conqueror. Calia stays in hiding. Her brother is the reason for the downfall of Lordaeron, the destruction of the Sunwell, and a hand at bringing the Burning Legion to Azeroth. That right there is enough to want to stay in hiding.

And I stand by my first statement concerning her role to the Forsaken. She isn't really trying to be their leader. As it is, right now, she is in the Shadowlands, meaning Lilian Voss has stayed behind to attempt leadership of the Forsaken.

[Granfaloon]

I don't think calia can ruin the forsaken. I am pretty sure that Voss in BFA already did that.
Who's the major lore characters of the forsaken pre bfa? Sylvanas, nathanos, then a series of NPCs who showed up in quests or lore (Faranell and belmont.)
All these characters went evil and were pushed off to the corners of forsaken lore as Voss (a non horde/non forsaken npc from cata) took up representing the forsaken race in the war campaign. They made it very clear that Voss reps the forsaken ideals (free will and being ruthless but a good guy) and with her supporting Calia it doesn't even matter if calia doesn't become leader of the forsaken on the horde, because activision has already shown the forsaken accept her.

[VladlTutushkin]

I don't think calia can ruin the forsaken. I am pretty sure that Voss in BFA already did that.
Who's the major lore characters of the forsaken pre bfa? Sylvanas, nathanos, then a series of NPCs who showed up in quests or lore (Faranell and belmont.)
All these characters went evil and were pushed off to the corners of forsaken lore as Voss (a non horde/non forsaken npc from cata) took up representing the forsaken race in the war campaign. They made it very clear that Voss reps the forsaken ideals (free will and being ruthless but a good guy) and with her supporting Calia it doesn't even matter if calia doesn't become leader of the forsaken on the horde, because activision has already shown the forsaken accept her.

I know that i will get absolutely dogpiled by the sylvanas stans now but Voss represents the Forsaken better then Sylvanas. Yes you heard it. Because she is ruthless yet not overly so, cunning but not a Megatron level asshole who betrays her allies and also a supporter of free will principle upon which her “un-life” as a Forsaken was built. Yes she first went to go hunt Scarletts but that does not detract from her being basically a “perfect” forsaken, from looks to character.

It also may be inappropriate but i kinda want to compare Sylvanas to Stalin in this case while Voss is a “party member” who happens to be an actual communist and follower of their ideals.

[Granfaloon]

I know that i will get absolutely dogpiled by the sylvanas stans now but Voss represents the Forsaken better then Sylvanas. Yes you heard it. Because she is ruthless yet not overly so, cunning but not a Megatron level asshole who betrays her allies and also a supporter of free will principle upon which her “un-life” as a Forsaken was built. Yes she first went to go hunt Scarletts but that does not detract from her being basically a “perfect” forsaken, from looks to character.

It also may be inappropriate but i kinda want to compare Sylvanas to Stalin in this case while Voss is a “party member” who happens to be an actual communist and follower of their ideals.

Yeah, generally what happens when they destroy a character. Garrosh use to rep the orcs better then thrall. Kael was the leader of the bloodelves until he wasn't.
Sylvanas has an entire speech on a ride to speluncter about how the forsaken will not surrender their land that they died defending, then preaches about saving her people. Instead of running with that version of her they took a neutralish rogue and turned her into the voice of the forsaken. Disregarding every existing voice for the forsaken. They re-wrote forsaken lore to better fit voss as the rep of the forsaken.

Sylvanas had this gray area that they carefully maintained. Alliance hated her and horde were sus of her. When she let out that "for the horde" in BFA I remember forsaken fans saying, "Finally sylvanas can be the doomhammer that garrosh failed to be." That lasted 10 seconds as they then announced teldrasil burning. Then everyone tried to rationalize it because they didn't want another horde hero to be thrown away.

I totally agree that sylvanas should not really have been made warchief, and that her as a character is evil. That's what the forsaken were though. They were fighting evil with evil. Now they are just sad misunderstood zombies, who literally have nothing to do with the original forsaken. Voss and Calia were not even raised by arthas.
It feels to me like they made a whole new race.

[Syegfryed]

a proper undead, aka, a rotting corpse of someone who lived and died in lordaeron should lead the forsaken, Not calia, not another elf, there is no much discussion about that

[VladlTutushkin]

a proper undead, aka, a rotting corpse of someone who lived and died in lordaeron should lead the forsaken, Not calia, not another elf, there is no much discussion about that

So... Voss fits both of those requirements.

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Yeah, generally what happens when they destroy a character. Garrosh use to rep the orcs better then thrall. Kael was the leader of the bloodelves until he wasn't.
Sylvanas has an entire speech on a ride to speluncter about how the forsaken will not surrender their land that they died defending, then preaches about saving her people. Instead of running with that version of her they took a neutralish rogue and turned her into the voice of the forsaken. Disregarding every existing voice for the forsaken. They re-wrote forsaken lore to better fit voss as the rep of the forsaken.

Sylvanas had this gray area that they carefully maintained. Alliance hated her and horde were sus of her. When she let out that "for the horde" in BFA I remember forsaken fans saying, "Finally sylvanas can be the doomhammer that garrosh failed to be." That lasted 10 seconds as they then announced teldrasil burning. Then everyone tried to rationalize it because they didn't want another horde hero to be thrown away.

I totally agree that sylvanas should not really have been made warchief, and that her as a character is evil. That's what the forsaken were though. They were fighting evil with evil. Now they are just sad misunderstood zombies, who literally have nothing to do with the original forsaken. Voss and Calia were not even raised by arthas.
It feels to me like they made a whole new race.

And who started “recruiting” via Valkyr? Sylvanas. There were bound to be “sad corpses” and only plot contrivances allowed for their status quo to last that long. The moment she started raising instead of freeing Scourge slaves she crossed the line and also paved a way for “i just want to go home” type of undead who in turn would likely start undermining the rest but by bit.

And by the time of pre-BfA Alliance long has given up on taking Lordaeron , best they wanted is Arathi or Gilneas and even that was more of a “what if” experience, not some formulated plan. Alliance was never really a “villain” or “enemy” towards Forsaken, at least not in a sense that Sylvanas puts into it aka “every enemy must be killed , including their civilians”. As far as i recall the only reason 7th Legion ended up in Lordaeron was because of Gilneas and their plead for help after Genn reached Stormwind.

And if people for a moment believed that she would have being a good Warchief or that she actually MEANT her “for the horde” then... boy oh boy how easy it would have being to manipulate you. How utterly simple. I mean, politicians and political officers always shout and proclaim all kinds of crap. The moment you trust the figure on stage or wall or a horse this is the moment you are done fooled.

[Better]

a proper undead, aka, a rotting corpse of someone who lived and died in lordaeron should lead the forsaken, Not calia, not another elf, there is no much discussion about that

Plenty of (then) High Elves were killed, and raised by Arthas as he made his way to the Sunwell. Just because Sylvanas settled down in Lordaeron doesn't mean that the Forsaken are only from there.

[Granfaloon]

So... Voss fits both of those requirements.

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And who started “recruiting” via Valkyr? Sylvanas. There were bound to be “sad corpses” and only plot contrivances allowed for their status quo to last that long. The moment she started raising instead of freeing Scourge slaves she crossed the line and also paved a way for “i just want to go home” type of undead who in turn would likely start undermining the rest but by bit.

And by the time of pre-BfA Alliance long has given up on taking Lordaeron , best they wanted is Arathi or Gilneas and even that was more of a “what if” experience, not some formulated plan. Alliance was never really a “villain” or “enemy” towards Forsaken, at least not in a sense that Sylvanas puts into it aka “every enemy must be killed , including their civilians”. As far as i recall the only reason 7th Legion ended up in Lordaeron was because of Gilneas and their plead for help after Genn reached Stormwind.

And if people for a moment believed that she would have being a good Warchief or that she actually MEANT her “for the horde” then... boy oh boy how easy it would have being to manipulate you. How utterly simple. I mean, politicians and political officers always shout and proclaim all kinds of crap. The moment you trust the figure on stage or wall or a horse this is the moment you are done fooled.

Ok, I was talking about how I liked sylvanas the fictional video game character and feel like the writers turned her into the worst version of her to make her a new villain. They could have just written her as a good guy doing bad guy stuff. Instead they made her murder a bunch of her own people and burn a tree for no reason. It's frustrating that they instead of making sylvanas MORE of a goodguy to soften her image they decided to scrap the entire existing forsaken lore to bring in voss and calia.
I don't much care what the current lore says sylvanas would do, because they have already retconned a bunch of her stuff to make her way more evil. Like, I liked the forsaken being evil. That's why I wanted to play them. But the new version of the forsaken with voss and calia are not evil. Which ruins the entire motif of the faction.
Hell even if they wanted to get rid of sylvanas they could have still kept that motif.

[Syegfryed]

Plenty of (then) High Elves were killed, and raised by Arthas as he made his way to the Sunwell. Just because Sylvanas settled down in Lordaeron doesn't mean that the Forsaken are only from there.

they are not citizens of lordaeron and they are not playable, they are minority and don't represent the forsaken that wel

people in this forum should just, for god's sake, forget elves for a hot second

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So... Voss fits both of those requirements.

right, but among the requirements she is one of the last in line.

[Better]

they are not citizens of lordaeron and they are not playable, they are minority and don't represent the forsaken that wel

people in this forum should just, for god's sake, forget elves for a hot second

Being a Citizen of Lordaeron isn't what the Forsaken Identity is about. Sylvanas, who is quite literally the faction icon for the Forsaken, never was.

[Lolites]

Again, you don't know that. The fact that she showed up, even though doing so was a really bad idea, at Arathi Highlands shows me she actually does care.

showing up when you know its bad idea that can hurt your people shows recklesnes... and sure, it showed she care, but about those still living, she was there so few living lorderonians can get their families back, not to actualy help forsaken as group...

daenerys is false equivalency, she couldnt realy do anything for "her" people, calia could, but didnt
as a princes of lordaeron, the best way to help forsaken would be to be on stormwind court and plead for them, remind varian (and later anduin) that he is in her debt, that it was her father (and her people) who took in varian and stormwind refugees after sw was burned down in first war, press on him to if not outright accept them as allies to at least end all hostilities against them, so they werent pushed to join horde (or so they could leave it later)

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And I stand by my first statement concerning her role to the Forsaken. She isn't really trying to be their leader.

that would be first show of her actualy thinking before doing something stupid, if she keeps up that pace in a decade or few she might become good enough leader, until then she is horrible option

[Ardenaso]

Plenty of (then) High Elves were killed, and raised by Arthas as he made his way to the Sunwell. Just because Sylvanas settled down in Lordaeron doesn't mean that the Forsaken are only from there.

there's even Forsaken Nerubians in WC3! why aren't they shown in WoW?

[Syegfryed]

Being a Citizen of Lordaeron isn't what the Forsaken Identity is about. Sylvanas, who is quite literally the faction icon for the Forsaken, never was.

it is, since vanila, "dark rangers" are minority, majority of the forsaken, including important ones are humans, they established themselves in lordaeron and are strong attached to the city, they claim, all the time, that lordaeron is their by right because of it.

[Muxtar]

Ok, I was talking about how I liked sylvanas the fictional video game character and feel like the writers turned her into the worst version of her to make her a new villain. They could have just written her as a good guy doing bad guy stuff. Instead they made her murder a bunch of her own people and burn a tree for no reason. It's frustrating that they instead of making sylvanas MORE of a goodguy to soften her image they decided to scrap the entire existing forsaken lore to bring in voss and calia.
I don't much care what the current lore says sylvanas would do, because they have already retconned a bunch of her stuff to make her way more evil. Like, I liked the forsaken being evil. That's why I wanted to play them. But the new version of the forsaken with voss and calia are not evil. Which ruins the entire motif of the faction.
Hell even if they wanted to get rid of sylvanas they could have still kept that motif.

Exactly my thoughts. Forsaken were quite cool good/evil faction pre-BfA, then writers decided to fuck them and create bunch of sadsacks after getting rid of one of the most iconic WC3 characters in the most stupid way possible. All have to be alike our child of sun with his eternal wisdom and forgiveness. Just awful. They will see it in sub numbers droppping soon enough, even though they will never admit or publish it, and will keep telling us bs about how good the lore is and how healthy and popular game remains.

[VladlTutushkin]

Ok, I was talking about how I liked sylvanas the fictional video game character and feel like the writers turned her into the worst version of her to make her a new villain. They could have just written her as a good guy doing bad guy stuff. Instead they made her murder a bunch of her own people and burn a tree for no reason. It's frustrating that they instead of making sylvanas MORE of a goodguy to soften her image they decided to scrap the entire existing forsaken lore to bring in voss and calia.
I don't much care what the current lore says sylvanas would do, because they have already retconned a bunch of her stuff to make her way more evil. Like, I liked the forsaken being evil. That's why I wanted to play them. But the new version of the forsaken with voss and calia are not evil. Which ruins the entire motif of the faction.
Hell even if they wanted to get rid of sylvanas they could have still kept that motif.

They COULD have stayed evil if plot before was structured differently. But with how it all ended up (even before BfA) them being evil made VERY little sense. Or rather them being evil and not being beset by every neutral faction AND the Alliance. Especially considering how they kept fucking up Silver Hand’s attempts at healing Plaguelands and actually murdered Silver Hand members... So they either have to be evil but face a massive repercussion for that and actually be “an underdog” or they have to adapt to the world where being openly evil is no longer acceptable amongst “civilised” factions. And yes Horde counts as civilised, even if in a... peculiar fashion.

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Exactly my thoughts. Forsaken were quite cool good/evil faction pre-BfA, then writers decided to fuck them and create bunch of sadsacks after getting rid of one of the most iconic WC3 characters in the most stupid way possible. All have to be alike our child of sun with his eternal wisdom and forgiveness. Just awful. They will see it in sub numbers droppping soon enough, even though they will never admit or publish it, and will keep telling us bs about how good the lore is and how healthy and popular game remains.

Years of ass-fucking (and openly ridiculing) one of the factions havent destroyed the game and you think de-edgification of the Forsaken will suddenly tank the sub numbers? Heh.

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showing up when you know its bad idea that can hurt your people shows recklesnes... and sure, it showed she care, but about those still living, she was there so few living lorderonians can get their families back, not to actualy help forsaken as group...

daenerys is false equivalency, she couldnt realy do anything for "her" people, calia could, but didnt
as a princes of lordaeron, the best way to help forsaken would be to be on stormwind court and plead for them, remind varian (and later anduin) that he is in her debt, that it was her father (and her people) who took in varian and stormwind refugees after sw was burned down in first war, press on him to if not outright accept them as allies to at least end all hostilities against them, so they werent pushed to join horde (or so they could leave it later)

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that would be first show of her actualy thinking before doing something stupid, if she keeps up that pace in a decade or few she might become good enough leader, until then she is horrible option

Sylvanas would have killed her if she so much showed up in Lordaeron to get a permit to go to Stormwind and plead on their behalf.

What about “Sylvanas is just a tyrant with a clever PR campaign” dosent add up to you?
OF COURSE they could have organised something like that, hell, they could have asked Faol to do that - an ex-leader of the Church of Light and so on. But she never wanted that. For Sylvanas keeping Forsaken hateful and fearful of the living was the best way to keep them under her yoke.
“The world hates you and wants you dead! Pyres prepared in Stormwind to burn you for crime of existing! Unite behind Great Leader Sylvanas and march together to brighter (darker?) future!”.
Its the “Tinpot Dictator 101” - keep your population in fear of “foreign invaders” who constantly surround and threaten them, even if “invaders” either dont give a damn about you or attack in retaliation.

[Muxtar]

Years of ass-fucking (and openly ridiculing) one of the factions havent destroyed the game and you think de-edgification of the Forsaken will suddenly tank the sub numbers? Heh.

Well, it haven't destroyed game, but haven't for sure benefited it either. Or you think they stopped to publish sub number just like that without any reason?
Same with Forsaken and Sylvanas fans (amount of which are pretty solid) - when they will finish screwing this race, many will switch to other races, and some of them will stop playing at all. It won't kill the game ofc, but will tank sub numbers even more that it is now. But writers are deaf, so it will happen anyway.

[VladlTutushkin]

Well, it haven't destroyed game, but haven't for sure benefited it either. Or you think they stopped to publish sub number just like that without any reason?
Same with Forsaken and Sylvanas fans (amount of which are pretty solid) - when they will finish screwing this race, many will switch to other races, and some of them will stop playing at all. It won't kill the game ofc, but will tank sub numbers even more that it is now. But writers are deaf, so it will happen anyway.

And they were deaf for YEARS to Alliance fans pleading them to stop with their bullshit but that didnt helped. And i highly doubt that Sylvanas fanclub is bigger then Alliance.