Calia will ruin the forsaken

[Jastall]

Exactly my thoughts. Forsaken were quite cool good/evil faction pre-BfA, then writers decided to fuck them and create bunch of sadsacks after getting rid of one of the most iconic WC3 characters in the most stupid way possible. All have to be alike our child of sun with his eternal wisdom and forgiveness. Just awful. They will see it in sub numbers droppping soon enough, even though they will never admit or publish it, and will keep telling us bs about how good the lore is and how healthy and popular game remains.

You got another thing coming if you think people unsub because of the lore. TBC, Cata and WoD all had atrocious lore but only the latter saw a real big dip in subs for entirely unrelated reasons.

[omeomorfismo]

They COULD have stayed evil if plot before was structured differently. But with how it all ended up (even before BfA) them being evil made VERY little sense. Or rather them being evil and not being beset by every neutral faction AND the Alliance. Especially considering how they kept fucking up Silver Hand’s attempts at healing Plaguelands and actually murdered Silver Hand members... So they either have to be evil but face a massive repercussion for that and actually be “an underdog” or they have to adapt to the world where being openly evil is no longer acceptable amongst “civilised” factions. And yes Horde counts as civilised, even if in a... peculiar fashion.

why are you still lying?
the forsaken killed 1 silver hand, and that scumbag was murdering forsaken civilians in the plaguelands.

[Jackstraw]

Calia already did.

Her introduction to the Horde fold, her shoehorning inside the Forsaken next to bloodly Lilian Voss who grew into the embodiment of the strife of undeath, in a moment where the race - who always marched to a couple drums such as "speak quickly", "trust no one", "beware the living", "our enemies abound", and above all: "victory for Sylvanas" - witnessed their savior forsake them all.

Now, how is that forsaken fans are a bit bummed?
First and foremost because most of the playerbase, the vocal minority let's say (although numbers recently seem to show otherwise), interacted with the Forsaken only as opponents and blight bombers. Forsaken are after all what the Ebon Blade and the Illidari have been repurposed most recently: a ruthless commando whose entire existance has been defined by reconquering a place to live, and developing tools to ensure their survival.

Forsaken fought the Scarlets, the humans, the ogres and the Scourge still left around. Forsaken asked for help and got denied any of it. Forsaken turned to their fellow humans and a crusade started against them.
So the lot knows ruthlessness. And although the Lich King campaign basically left them with no purpose, they got renewed by following the conquest of Lordaeron and Gilneas in a renewed effort for survival: as the only Horde force with a sensible presence in their region, it could make sense to entrench and creating a perimeter where the Forsaken would be safe.

Then as we know Sylvanas' purpose got retconned with Zovaal and all that, and we get the Desolate Council and Calia.

So how is it that Calia is against everything Forsaken stand for?
She knows nothing of the struggle of her newfound people. She is not welcoming on nobody but some Night Elf corpses, has no empathy and no character, and does not share into the hard fought existance Forsaken carved out for themselves.

Of course writers can rewrite as much of these fifteen years of narrative as they see fit to accomodate for their vision. I think it's fair.
I just find it sad it is coming at the expense of basically everything estabilished by the game.

[Toppy]

They need to get rid of Christie Golden, and they need to have done it years ago.

[VladlTutushkin]

They need to get rid of Christie Golden, and they need to have done it years ago.

Only after they get rid of Danuser.

- - - Updated - - -

Calia already did.

Her introduction to the Horde fold, her shoehorning inside the Forsaken next to bloodly Lilian Voss who grew into the embodiment of the strife of undeath, in a moment where the race - who always marched to a couple drums such as "speak quickly", "trust no one", "beware the living", "our enemies abound", and above all: "victory for Sylvanas" - witnessed their savior forsake them all.

Now, how is that forsaken fans are a bit bummed?
First and foremost because most of the playerbase, the vocal minority let's say (although numbers recently seem to show otherwise), interacted with the Forsaken only as opponents and blight bombers. Forsaken are after all what the Ebon Blade and the Illidari have been repurposed most recently: a ruthless commando whose entire existance has been defined by reconquering a place to live, and developing tools to ensure their survival.

Forsaken fought the Scarlets, the humans, the ogres and the Scourge still left around. Forsaken asked for help and got denied any of it. Forsaken turned to their fellow humans and a crusade started against them.
So the lot knows ruthlessness. And although the Lich King campaign basically left them with no purpose, they got renewed by following the conquest of Lordaeron and Gilneas in a renewed effort for survival: as the only Horde force with a sensible presence in their region, it could make sense to entrench and creating a perimeter where the Forsaken would be safe.

Then as we know Sylvanas' purpose got retconned with Zovaal and all that, and we get the Desolate Council and Calia.

So how is it that Calia is against everything Forsaken stand for?
She knows nothing of the struggle of her newfound people. She is not welcoming on nobody but some Night Elf corpses, has no empathy and no character, and does not share into the hard fought existance Forsaken carved out for themselves.

Of course writers can rewrite as much of these fifteen years of narrative as they see fit to accomodate for their vision. I think it's fair.
I just find it sad it is coming at the expense of basically everything estabilished by the game.

Well, it happened to every second Alliance race since Cata. And the process was peprpetuated by horde biased writers who had no idea how to write Alliance without making them utter morons and horde’s punching bags.

Its merely “your turn” now. And you got it REALLY nice and easy so... I would recommend you to accept that and be thankful that you go to “peaceful moron” from a VERY fat and powerful point. Not after your race was annihilated or humiliated by an enemy faction.

[eurojust]

Calia already did.

Forsaken turned to their fellow humans and a crusade started against them.

You got it the other way around : Sylvanas was the one who betrayed the humans first and finished the Scourge's job by killing the last humans survivors.

[vian]

Funny, never even heard of her.

[naeblis495]

She can't destroy the Forsaken.

The Forsaken were already retconned byond repair the moment "Before The Storm" got accepted and published .

[Jackstraw]

it happened to every second Alliance race since Cata.

No, not really.
Let's ignore the fact that Alliance got handed the moral high ground in Theramore, since Cata means that we're including the MoP sacking of the Horde main capital, the WoD Khagdar parade, the Legion Alliance only campaign and whatever it was in BfA. Now one of the racial leaders of the Horde is an Alliance character, and I have to stand Darion Mograine going on huge rants to tell me how amazing and strong and mighty the Lord Admiral is.

Meanwhile Baine, which has no character at all, gets ragdolled down a precipice and Thrall launches normal axes at Helya.

And don't even get me started on Vol'jin and Varian during the Broken Shore campaign.

So please go back and get your bearings about what went down and with whom. And please do not give me the WoD orcs only.

You got it the other way around : Sylvanas was the one who betrayed the humans first and finished the Scourge's job by killing the last humans survivors.

Garithos was a human suprematist. Shaw states that the Alliance as a whole is better off with him dead. Sent dwarves to suicidal missions, set Kael'thas and the blood elves to die were they not crafty enough to accept Vashj's help. May it be so that Sylvanas betrayed Garithos to get Lordaeron (which Garithos would not have been able to by himself regardless), defending Garithos is laughable.

[VladlTutushkin]

No, not really.
Let's ignore the fact that Alliance got handed the moral high ground in Theramore, since Cata means that we're including the MoP sacking of the Horde main capital, the WoD Khagdar parade, the Legion Alliance only campaign and whatever it was in BfA. Now one of the racial leaders of the Horde is an Alliance character, and I have to stand Darion Mograine going on huge rants to tell me how amazing and strong and mighty the Lord Admiral is.

Meanwhile Baine, which has no character at all, gets ragdolled down a precipice and Thrall launches normal axes at Helya.

And don't even get me started on Vol'jin and Varian during the Broken Shore campaign.

So please go back and get your bearings about what went down and with whom. And please do not give me the WoD orcs only.


Garithos was a human suprematist. Shaw states that the Alliance as a whole is better off with him dead. Sent dwarves to suicidal missions, set Kael'thas and the blood elves to die were they not crafty enough to accept Vashj's help. May it be so that Sylvanas betrayed Garithos to get Lordaeron (which Garithos would not have been able to by himself regardless), defending Garithos is laughable.

She also killed Garithose's army that wasnt a bunch of "jerks and human supremacists" and were just survivors of Lordaeron banding together under his lead to survive since he was the last ranking officer remaining after Scourge either killed or dispersed the rest.

[Jackstraw]

She also killed Garithose's army that wasnt a bunch of "jerks and human supremacists" and were just survivors of Lordaeron banding together under his lead to survive since he was the last ranking officer remaining after Scourge either killed or dispersed the rest.

He was a warlord. His military force was comprised of whatever low life you could get and some survivors. It might be so they all got culled, but all we have evidence of is that he had a warband and treated everyone not human with disdain.

If we want to make any assumption, we're going straight into fantasy land. At that point everything goes.

[VladlTutushkin]

He was a warlord. His military force was comprised of whatever low life you could get and some survivors. It might be so they all got culled, but all we have evidence of is that he had a warband and treated everyone not human with disdain.

If we want to make any assumption, we're going straight into fantasy land. At that point everything goes.

Oh so you just chalk down everybody under Garithos as a "lowlife" and "racist" because he was a jerk? Hah. Haha. Says a horde sympathizer. Sylvanas excuser. Hypocrisy is one hell of a drug isnt it? Where that "leaders are not at all indicative of the people they lead" shtick Horde keeps pushing? Where is that "they are primarily good people" spiel? Where is "dont judge the majority by the actions of minority" blabbering?

[Tarba]

I mean, cool. That's your opinion that these thing are necessary to be a Forsaken. But Blizz decided to disagree and move them away from all that crappy teen angst.

Teen was to old. Their target audience is 7yo childs who like disney's fairy tales were the good young blond prince win against the evil evil by using courage and friendship.

[Soon-TM]

Teen was to old. Their target audience is 7yo childs who like disney's fairy tales were the good young blond prince win against the evil evil by using courage and friendship.

This. The books that my 12 yo niece reads are far better written than the pitiable fanfiction penned by Danuser & co. Even your average, run of the mill shõnen (which is targeted at 14/15 years old kids) is more bearable than Andy & Sylv's cosmic tale

[Alatie]

Not edgy enough, i guess, Horde players (And Forsaken-mains in particular) need their edginess-fix.

It can't be that she's too tidy-looking for an undead (No big scars, missing bits or whatever), because Sylvanas was remarkably well-preserved as well.

The lore figures that emboided horde the most in the history of wow had nothing edgy about them. If anything the most edgy thing in this game is a emo little night elf that likes to throw a punch but could not take it.

[Muxtar]

You got another thing coming if you think people unsub because of the lore. TBC, Cata and WoD all had atrocious lore but only the latter saw a real big dip in subs for entirely unrelated reasons.

TBC and Cata (somewhat less) were the times of peak height of WoW, so people could handle bad (just bad, not terrible) lore. When WoW started going down the descent road and it combined with bad lore in WoD, we saw what happened, although yes, lore was not the only reason of that dip in numbers. But starting from BfA onwards lore became just terrible, so giving this, and that game hasn't been offering much since Legion, I already can see another dip down the road.

[Mumba]

There's a simple litmus test you should do to remove any unfit people before any other character traits are to be compared.

If there would be a violent all out war between the Forsaken and Stormwind, which side would you pick? If choosing Forsaken takes more than one second, then you are not fit to even lead an undead horse to it stable.

[Jackstraw]

Oh so you just chalk down everybody under Garithos as a "lowlife" and "racist" because he was a jerk? Hah. Haha. Says a horde sympathizer. Sylvanas excuser. Hypocrisy is one hell of a drug isnt it? Where that "leaders are not at all indicative of the people they lead" shtick Horde keeps pushing? Where is that "they are primarily good people" spiel? Where is "dont judge the majority by the actions of minority" blabbering?

Won't find it on me. Forsaken were ruthless killing machines driven by a singular purpose and unwavering loyalty. Were it for me, I'd have liked to go the distance and have Westfall blighted. But alas apparently we can only get minor shit like Southshore with a weakened strain.

[VladlTutushkin]

Won't find it on me. Forsaken were ruthless killing machines driven by a singular purpose and unwavering loyalty. Were it for me, I'd have liked to go the distance and have Westfall blighted. But alas apparently we can only get minor shit like Southshore with a weakened strain.

And if that would have happened then even Aduin's peacemongering wouldnt have saved you from a pyre. Forsaken getting a free pass on their mass murdering and blighting always was a biggest plothole in the game.

- - - Updated - - -

There's a simple litmus test you should do to remove any unfit people before any other character traits are to be compared.

If there would be a violent all out war between the Forsaken and Stormwind, which side would you pick? If choosing Forsaken takes more than one second, then you are not fit to even lead an undead horse to it stable.

Depends on a reason for war. If thats another "lets kill all life" genocidal rampage then i doubt even horde would get behind forsaken this time.
If thats humans trying to wipe them out to take over EK entirely then sure, she must side with Forsaken.

- - - Updated - - -

The lore figures that emboided horde the most in the history of wow had nothing edgy about them. If anything the most edgy thing in this game is a emo little night elf that likes to throw a punch but could not take it.

Lol. Sylvanas is an embodiment of edge. And "little night elf that likes to throw a punch" is who? Illidan? Shandris? Tyrande? Either of those would be wrong though.

[eurojust]

Garithos was a human suprematist. Shaw states that the Alliance as a whole is better off with him dead. Sent dwarves to suicidal missions, set Kael'thas and the blood elves to die were they not crafty enough to accept Vashj's help. May it be so that Sylvanas betrayed Garithos to get Lordaeron (which Garithos would not have been able to by himself regardless), defending Garithos is laughable.

Don't move the goalpost. You implied that the humans started the hostilities which is simply wrong. Also Sylvanas planned on conquering Lordaeron and betraying the humans regardless of Garithos politics (I bet she didn't even know that he was some racist).

The Forsaken betrayed and slaughtered the humans who trusted them, so don't act like they were the victims here.