Page 21 of 24 FirstFirst ...
11
19
20
21
22
23
... LastLast
  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, I'm sure Sylvanas was overflowing with all those things while running a sewer and having to send a message cross-continent where every other party in the area was hostile. We know from an omniscient viewpoint that Sylvanas sent messengers to get support from humans expecting support.
    Okay, maybe she did expect it. That only makes her more insane or more evil, depending which you prefer. She slaughtered the last remnants of Lordaeronian humans and then expected humans to come help her... wow... just wow... . One would think she might have had a better chance of getting that support by making a deal with Gari's troops, who hated him too. "We let you go, you tell our story and we work together." But nah, slaughtering them all and then sending shambling zombies out to beg for aid seems like a much saner option...

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    We also know from her later view that she has no issue working with humans, see Varian.
    That is decades later, when she had long established her choke hold on the Forsaken and they are long a part of the Horde and thus more or less working with other races.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    We also know that when the head of Stormwind Intelligence did learn about it ages later, he thought that Garithos got off too lightly for being chowed down by ghouls. Even before that, we know none were aware of what happened to Garithos so as to have it be part of their decision-making when killing the envoys. The guys who torch Forsaken hearts at altars don't say "Oh, we'd have been great buds with those undead, if only they hadn't killed Garithos, pbuh".
    Of course. No one cares about that racist SoB. His troops are a very different story though. I am not just saying it was evil and hypocritical that she murdered them all, I am saying it was incredibly stupid if she wanted a relationship with the humans. Those folks would have presented at least a chance. Make Gari's death look like an accident or the work of Scourge, ally with his troops, who hate him, send them to SW to make Sylvanas' case for her. Sooo much more sensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    But nevermind that, the reasoning that Sylvanas would be opposed to any kind of alliance with humans because she killed people hostile to her who, had she let go, would have occupied the only fortified position in the area and turned against them is so pants on head retarded nothing short of a die-hard commitment to casting everything Sylvanas did as the spawn of Satan can explain pushing that position.
    Nowhere is there any evidence that Garithos planned to break the deal. He only told them to leave "his" city, which by the terms of the deal was exactly what was supposed to happen. The betrayal was completely one-sided.
    Is it possible that Gari would have turned on them later? Absolutely, but he never got the chance and we have no hints other then his character and commitment to being an asshole to support this theory. On the flipside, we know that Sylvanas was going to break the deal anyway and the character of the human commander had no bearing on it. She barely knew him. Her decision to kill all those humans was made long before and she would have betrayed any commander.

    As for pushing for Sylvanas being evil. You know, not really hard work with her when you just lay out the facts. They kinda speak for themselves. I would say trying to explain away all the evil shit she did to make her look less evil is a lot harder.

  2. #402
    Garithos was right and did nothing wrong. Had he succeeded, we wouldn't have 10 Sylvanas threads a day and this clusterfuck of an expansion.


    That man was truly ahead of his time.

  3. #403
    I'm touching on the Garithos topic once more and then never again, because at this point it's getting ridiculous.

    Garithos was a thug on a horse who got by thanks to the support of the political connections humans as a race had inside the Alliance of Lordaeron. That's why he got people from Khaz'modan and Silvermoon, no matter if he saw them all as expendables to ensure his band's survival, or his own.

    By the time Sylvanas gets in touch with Garithos, Garithos is mind controlled. This means that the man is done for and his followers as well. Garithos being freed by Sylvanas is a fortunate circumstance turned tragedy, because not knowing when to back off and count his luck, the guy decides to aid Sylvanas and lay claim to Lordaeron.

    And here's the cherry on top: Garithos got mind controlled because he overextended where nobody could cover for his blunders. Had he succeeded in whatever he was trying to do, he would have become Nameless Ghoul #7, only useful to complete whatever quest there is to do around Caer Darrow.

    And on topic, this whole discussion is one of the most disheartening things about Forsaken lore: Calia is seen as fine because the Forsaken are perceived as expendable in the overarching plot: past villains who need no development because "lol the Plague Sylvanas fanboy tits and ass amirite".

    Years of nuances thrown under a bus.
    Last edited by Jackstraw; 2021-02-01 at 04:03 PM.

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Okay, maybe she did expect it. That only makes her more insane or more evil, depending which you prefer. She slaughtered the last remnants of Lordaeronian humans and then expected humans to come help her... wow... just wow... . One would think she might have had a better chance of getting that support by making a deal with Gari's troops, who hated him too. "We let you go, you tell our story and we work together." But nah, slaughtering them all and then sending shambling zombies out to beg for aid seems like a much saner option...
    Sylvanas and the Forsaken killed Garithos's forces within the walls of Lordaeron Keep. They obviously didn't kill every Lordaeronian given that a Lordaeronian skeleton force in Tirisfal was an existential threat and so was the Scarlet Crusade. More than that, Garithos had just recently ordered the heir apparent to an allied kingdom put to death for working with naga (without even knowing what the naga were) along with his subject, yet your argument is founded on casting this guy as an entirely friendly actor who would happily repay a debt when even the direct fulfilment of his orders by people who had no territorial claims, i.e Kael and the naga, got the death sentence.

    That is decades later, when she had long established her choke hold on the Forsaken and they are long a part of the Horde and thus more or less working with other races.
    Let's disregard that we know from the omniscient narrator that she sent messengers for the explicit purpose of soliciting human help, so ipso facto she was fine with human help. What the fuck does Sylvanas care about whether the Forsaken would accept human aid or not? At this stage she's motivated solely by killing Arthas. If the humans would let her join up with them to kill Arthas, then that'd be a deal she'd be welcome to make. That the humans wouldn't make a deal with either the undead or with her personally is why she went to the Horde.

    Of course. No one cares about that racist SoB. His troops are a very different story though. I am not just saying it was evil and hypocritical that she murdered them all, I am saying it was incredibly stupid if she wanted a relationship with the humans. Those folks would have presented at least a chance. Make Gari's death look like an accident or the work of Scourge, ally with his troops, who hate him, send them to SW to make Sylvanas' case for her. Sooo much more sensible.
    I mean, if Sylvanas were 100% a rational robot she would have had him possessed since we know that A) He's extremely weak-willed B) His troops are also absolute dumbasses who would follow him and defend a dreadlord's encampment because he told them to per the quest where Detheroc had him under mind control. Past that, they're collateral and letting them go would not end with them throwing her a parade but with the forces outside the walls growing in numbers. Garithos doesn't need to be an irrational actor and you don't even need to touch his personal qualities to make the case for his killing:

    Nowhere is there any evidence that Garithos planned to break the deal. He only told them to leave "his" city, which by the terms of the deal was exactly what was supposed to happen. The betrayal was completely one-sided.
    Is it possible that Gari would have turned on them later? Absolutely, but he never got the chance and we have no hints other then his character and commitment to being an asshole to support this theory. On the flipside, we know that Sylvanas was going to break the deal anyway and the character of the human commander had no bearing on it. She barely knew him. Her decision to kill all those humans was made long before and she would have betrayed any commander.
    I already pointed out how Garithos had put an actual, living allied king before he even touched fel on death row along with his followers for managing to achieve his goals. The idea that he'd let an undead state exist on the lands he's there to liberate is beyond preposterous. But suppose he fell on his head and died. This is where the fact that nobody knew what happened to him is as important as it is - the Scarlet Crusade and the Stormwind killing of messengers, plus the later fight vs. the Forsaken takes place irrespective of him because humanity has every reason to mistrust the undead and also every reason to want their lands back and for them to be inhabited by living people. Any commander in charge of a coherent Lordaeronian movement would be a foe of the Forsaken and ergo any who were in a similar situation would have to be killed by Sylvanas if she had any intention of being an independent power or even surviving at all, ditto her followers.

    Sylvanas is indeed bad, but that doesn't mean every single act she does is inherently evil. Killing Garithos and his troops is a rational choice where any other decision short of his possession would have ended up with her and the Forsaken wiped out, either by Garithos himself or by any other Lordaeronian reclamation force that'd harness his troops were they to be let go.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  5. #405
    Banned Depakote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,281
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    It's not about the Horde, it's specifically about the Forsaken. She didn't suffer like them.

    I'm an Alliance player through and through and even I know she doesn't fit.
    Ya Calia totally doesn't fit if you ignore that the Forsaken are actually her people of the fallen kingdom of Lorderon.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Ya Calia totally doesn't fit if you ignore that the Forsaken are actually her people of the fallen kingdom of Lorderon.
    The people she was so tied to, nobody heard a peep about her up until recently, where the Light had to basically brainwash her to make her participate in the Hillsbrad meeting.

    She shares nothing of the torment of undeath, and has nothing in common with the Forsaken - not even the appearance or the tone of voice. She's a lightbound whatever.

    Retcons can change that, sure. They did after all change everything about Sylvanas to accomodate for Zovaal's appearance.

  7. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Sylvanas and the Forsaken killed Garithos's forces within the walls of Lordaeron Keep. They obviously didn't kill every Lordaeronian given that a Lordaeronian skeleton force in Tirisfal was an existential threat and so was the Scarlet Crusade. More than that, Garithos had just recently ordered the heir apparent to an allied kingdom put to death for working with naga (without even knowing what the naga were) along with his subject, yet your argument is founded on casting this guy as an entirely friendly actor who would happily repay a debt when even the direct fulfilment of his orders by people who had no territorial claims, i.e Kael and the naga, got the death sentence.



    Let's disregard that we know from the omniscient narrator that she sent messengers for the explicit purpose of soliciting human help, so ipso facto she was fine with human help. What the fuck does Sylvanas care about whether the Forsaken would accept human aid or not? At this stage she's motivated solely by killing Arthas. If the humans would let her join up with them to kill Arthas, then that'd be a deal she'd be welcome to make. That the humans wouldn't make a deal with either the undead or with her personally is why she went to the Horde.



    I mean, if Sylvanas were 100% a rational robot she would have had him possessed since we know that A) He's extremely weak-willed B) His troops are also absolute dumbasses who would follow him and defend a dreadlord's encampment because he told them to per the quest where Detheroc had him under mind control. Past that, they're collateral and letting them go would not end with them throwing her a parade but with the forces outside the walls growing in numbers. Garithos doesn't need to be an irrational actor and you don't even need to touch his personal qualities to make the case for his killing:



    I already pointed out how Garithos had put an actual, living allied king before he even touched fel on death row along with his followers for managing to achieve his goals. The idea that he'd let an undead state exist on the lands he's there to liberate is beyond preposterous. But suppose he fell on his head and died. This is where the fact that nobody knew what happened to him is as important as it is - the Scarlet Crusade and the Stormwind killing of messengers, plus the later fight vs. the Forsaken takes place irrespective of him because humanity has every reason to mistrust the undead and also every reason to want their lands back and for them to be inhabited by living people. Any commander in charge of a coherent Lordaeronian movement would be a foe of the Forsaken and ergo any who were in a similar situation would have to be killed by Sylvanas if she had any intention of being an independent power or even surviving at all, ditto her followers.

    Sylvanas is indeed bad, but that doesn't mean every single act she does is inherently evil. Killing Garithos and his troops is a rational choice where any other decision short of his possession would have ended up with her and the Forsaken wiped out, either by Garithos himself or by any other Lordaeronian reclamation force that'd harness his troops were they to be let go.
    No, not really. If she spared him and he tried to stab her later she could have killed him with almost no repercussions because as others (and you) pointed out he was a massive jerk and most likely had no true loyalty of his troops and people they protected. But again we just HAVE to bend into pretzel to excuse her murdering of living Lordaeronians because reasons.

    This is so tiresome. Also thats the reason you guys wholeheartedly DESERVE Calia.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I already pointed out how Garithos had put an actual, living allied king before he even touched fel on death row along with his followers for managing to achieve his goals. The idea that he'd let an undead state exist on the lands he's there to liberate is beyond preposterous. But suppose he fell on his head and died. This is where the fact that nobody knew what happened to him is as important as it is - the Scarlet Crusade and the Stormwind killing of messengers, plus the later fight vs. the Forsaken takes place irrespective of him because humanity has every reason to mistrust the undead and also every reason to want their lands back and for them to be inhabited by living people. Any commander in charge of a coherent Lordaeronian movement would be a foe of the Forsaken and ergo any who were in a similar situation would have to be killed by Sylvanas if she had any intention of being an independent power or even surviving at all, ditto her followers.

    Sylvanas is indeed bad, but that doesn't mean every single act she does is inherently evil. Killing Garithos and his troops is a rational choice where any other decision short of his possession would have ended up with her and the Forsaken wiped out, either by Garithos himself or by any other Lordaeronian reclamation force that'd harness his troops were they to be let go.
    It is completely inconceivable to me how someone could play WC3 and Classic WoW and come out with the conclusion that there could have been peaceful coexistence between undead and humans in Lordaeron. Total annihilation of the other faction within Lordaeron was always the only possible outcome to this conflict. It really shows 'how far we've come' that people retroactively apply this weird logic of "humans and Forsaken can exist peacefully together, hold hands and hug their old family" (which is basically a deranged lore-blind retelling of the Orc story) to the older lore where the only believable reaction of a human meeting a Forsaken resulted in the death of one of the two.

  9. #409
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It is completely inconceivable to me how someone could play WC3 and Classic WoW and come out with the conclusion that there could have been peaceful coexistence between undead and humans in Lordaeron. Total annihilation of the other faction within Lordaeron was always the only possible outcome to this conflict. It really shows 'how far we've come' that people retroactively apply this weird logic of "humans and Forsaken can exist peacefully together, hold hands and hug their old family" (which is basically a deranged lore-blind retelling of the Orc story) to the older lore where the only believable reaction of a human meeting a Forsaken resulted in the death of one of the two.
    Blame blizzard. Its their fault that they want us to forgive the horde everything they do, always. So if they really want to pursue that angle then they might at least let that have some positive outcomes or whatever, since not complying with “peace” leads to being “evil and insane” and ending up either dead or close to it (like Tyrande).

    Also on the topic of the whole “forsaken and their living families”. I mean... i would not dare harm my grandfather if he died, became a zombie and then regained his free will. Like, if he would not attack me first as free-willed undead (and why would he? I mean, even if undeath makes you more sour/angry he would have little reason to) i would not shun him. Such familial bonds usually go past “oh he looks scary because his jaw is missing”.
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2021-02-01 at 05:41 PM.

  10. #410
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also on the topic of the whole “forsaken and their living families”. I mean... i would not dare harm my grandfather if he died, became a zombie and then regained his free will. Like, if he would not attack me first as free-willed undead (and why would he? I mean, even if undeath makes you more sour/angry he would have little reason to) i would not shun him. Such familial bonds usually go past “oh he looks scary because his jaw is missing”.
    That's not the point. IRL most people aren't deeply religious people who think their loved ones are denied entry into the afterlife and doomed to forever live in a cursed state of unlife that completely goes against their faith. I mean, if you want to look for analogies read up on how people in late medieval/early modern Europe treated women whome they suspected to be witches.

  11. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    That's not the point. IRL most people aren't deeply religious people who think their loved ones are denied entry into the afterlife and doomed to forever live in a cursed state of unlife that completely goes against their faith. I mean, if you want to look for analogies read up on how people in late medieval/early modern Europe treated women whome they suspected to be witches.
    And WoW clearly stepped away from all such concepts. Looooong time ago too. Sad but thats the WoW we have now. If they can turn warrior-women into pansy flower-ladies who can only cry and die when big, sweaty jocks come around (and then rise to undeath and love those same jocks forever)... They can turn religious peasants into more... tolerant ones.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And WoW clearly stepped away from all such concepts. Looooong time ago too. Sad but thats the WoW we have now. If they can turn warrior-women into pansy flower-ladies who can only cry and die when big, sweaty jocks come around (and then rise to undeath and love those same jocks forever)... They can turn religious peasants into more... tolerant ones.
    There was no effort shown that would make the average Josephus from Stormwind any more tolerant of undead monstrosities. It simply doesn't work like that. You don't go from a Monty Python caricature of ignorant, witch burning peasants to enlightened tolerant merciful beings of pure goodness that put aside their religious views and accept Forsaken for what they are even though only twenty years have passed (in which the Alliance almost constantly fought the Forsaken and lost even more territory and an entire human kingdom to them).

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    There was no effort shown that would make the average Josephus from Stormwind any more tolerant of undead monstrosities. It simply doesn't work like that. You don't go from a Monty Python caricature of ignorant, witch burning peasants to enlightened tolerant merciful beings of pure goodness that put aside their religious views and accept Forsaken for what they are even though only twenty years have passed (in which the Alliance almost constantly fought the Forsaken and lost even more territory and an entire human kingdom to them).
    As i said - thats not about the plot or lore or logic. Its about Blizzard decisions and wants. They wanted to defang and declaw night elves and worgen? They did so. They wanted to make humans tolerant? They did so. Thats about it.

  14. #414
    Banned Depakote's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Alpha Quadrant
    Posts
    1,281
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    The people she was so tied to, nobody heard a peep about her up until recently, where the Light had to basically brainwash her to make her participate in the Hillsbrad meeting.

    She shares nothing of the torment of undeath, and has nothing in common with the Forsaken - not even the appearance or the tone of voice. She's a lightbound whatever.

    Retcons can change that, sure. They did after all change everything about Sylvanas to accomodate for Zovaal's appearance.
    you sure are implying a lot there.

  15. #415
    Calia needs to disappear forever.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  16. #416
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    7,839
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    you sure are implying a lot there.
    There are no implications whatsoever in the post you quoted, just saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  17. #417
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    There are no implications whatsoever in the post you quoted, just saying.
    Its interesting how some people are ready to give the "wait and see" benefits to Sylvanas who works with a dude that pretty much tortures EVERYBODY he can get his hands on until they are insane from agony and then smashes them into weapons or binds to slave-army service... And people still claim that he might be "actually the good guy". But when Light fucked up Draenor everybody assumes that everything Light related is 100% evil and has some malicious implication.

  18. #418
    Over 9000! Kyphael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    9,082
    Defeating Arthas already did that.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Its interesting how some people are ready to give the "wait and see" benefits to Sylvanas who works with a dude that pretty much tortures EVERYBODY he can get his hands on until they are insane from agony and then smashes them into weapons or binds to slave-army service... And people still claim that he might be "actually the good guy". But when Light fucked up Draenor everybody assumes that everything Light related is 100% evil and has some malicious implication.
    Conspiracy theorists, nuts eh.

  20. #420
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    What the playable Forsaken aren't is omnicidal. They don't want to destroy the world, they want to hold their backyard and kill people who want to kill them or sometimes look at them funny in proximity of their land.
    I think a better word than 'omnicidal' is 'expansionist'. The Forsaken of WoW Classic are evil, but they're not expansionists. The orcs, in contrast, aren't evil, but they are expansionists. The orcs are constantly pushing the borders and seeking new territory. That's why Garrosh has to force/threaten Sylvanas into attacking Gilneas, but when Sylvanas does attack, she goes all out with the Blight.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •