Calia will ruin the forsaken

[Ethas]

Except that she watched the brother turn into an evil monster, killing her father, all her friends and family, destroying her home. Then loosing her child and husband while fleeing the Scourge, who are most likely dead as well now.

Yeah, she hasn't suffered at all! Not a bit. Give me a friggin break.

The only difference between Calia and Sylvanas is that different from the Banshee, Calia did not allow her own suffering to break her and become just as bad (and worse) as the evil forces that destroyed her life. She remained good, helping people as a Priest of the Light instead of obsessing over vengeance and crying over how horrible fate was to her while using that as an excuse to murder innocents.

Let's be honest. You don't dislike Calia because she hasn't suffered like the Forsaken, because she has. You dislike her because she isn't edgy and evil and thus the Forsaken won't be allowed to be edgy and evil should she truely lead them.

While I appreciate that she stood and watched, Sylvanas actually fought against undead, was forcefully made into undead (read mindless zombie) and was ordered to kill her own people and kin. She suffered incomparable to this lighty-dutty sheep who is all nice and good because everybody basically treat her as my little princess starting right from the resurrection process. She didn't suffer as much as Sylvanas did. Mind also the fact that she choose passive pussy road while Sylvanas choose to fight Arthas to the end and succeeded. In fact, if not for her sacrifice and self destruction, who knows maybe The Scourge would obliterated the world because there were no pony tail Anduin The Saviour back then.

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Why would she? Lilian has very little reason to dislike Calia, no matter how much frothing at the mouth fanbase does.

Because she is Forsaken. That is what Forsaken do. And why not? Very cool race for that matter.

[Super Dickmann]

As in all topics virtually everyone who pushes for Calia neither plays nor likes Forsaken or even Horde for that matter. That said, the topic title is wrong in the sense that the Forsaken have been dead since BTS and everything else has just been the world's most drawnout funeral.

Also memes that equate Sylvanas shooting down defecting high officials in melodramatic weepy prose to genocide or mining materials to Brennadam is god tier.

[omeomorfismo]

Which war did he start? Is this "muh Taurajo" time?

no, i dont care a jack shit about taurajo.
but alliance attacked in howling fjiord the apothecary boats and varian declared war in undercity.
you can learn a bit of lore instead posting some low effort meme....

[Raisei]

so ignore the forsaken in the story? isnt like that the game is completely ignoring the undeads since the last forsaken exp zone of cata...
they call you living even playing a dk...
at least dont destroy a fucking rp

No need to ignore them. But they can't be evil. Simple as that. The PC is of the same moral alignment as the Desolate Council folks.

And you are free to play your RP as you wish, I am just saying it is never gonna be canon and thus it isn't something that should be defended as if it was canon.

[omeomorfismo]

While I appreciate that she stood and watched, Sylvanas actually fought against undead, was forcefully made into undead (read mindless zombie) and was ordered to kill her own people and kin. She suffered incomparable to this lighty-dutty sheep who is all nice and good because everybody basically treat her as my little princess starting right from the resurrection process. She didn't suffer as much as Sylvanas did. Mind also the fact that she choose passive pussy road while Sylvanas choose to fight Arthas to the end and succeeded. In fact, if not for her sacrifice and self destruction, who knows maybe The Scourge would obliterated the world because there were no pony tail Anduin The Saviour back then.

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Because she is Forsaken. That is what Forsaken do. And why not? Very cool race for that matter.

lilian what? she was never a forsaken, she was consripted as an horde "assassin" like garona

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No need to ignore them. But they can't be evil. Simple as that. The PC is of the same moral alignment as the Desolate Council folks.

And you are free to play your RP as you wish, I am just saying it is never gonna be canon and thus it isn't something that should be defended as if it was canon.

bullshit, hillsbrad quest is canon, the conquest of gilneas is canon, every single forsaken zone is canon. like everytime a npc call me a living. the game its a fucking mess, they could simply mantain that instead of murdering their characterization of the forsaken

[haiyken]

She didn't suffer as much as Sylvanas did.

That's a weird thing to say... I get what you guys are talking about, but putting suffering on a scale is strange to me. I don't think suffering works like that, even in fiction.

[Daemos daemonium]

Which war did he start? Is this "muh Taurajo" time?

Varian started the cata war declaring it in undercity and launching all of the first offences.

[Raisei]

While I appreciate that she stood and watched, Sylvanas actually fought against undead, was forcefully made into undead (read mindless zombie) and was ordered to kill her own people and kin. She suffered incomparable to this lighty-dutty sheep who is all nice and good because everybody basically treat her as my little princess starting right from the resurrection process. She didn't suffer as much as Sylvanas did. Mind also the fact that she choose passive pussy road while Sylvanas choose to fight Arthas to the end and succeeded. In fact, if not for her sacrifice and self destruction, who knows maybe The Scourge would obliterated the world because there were no pony tail Anduin The Saviour back then.

She wasn't a warrior then and still isn't a fighter. She was just a princess. Sylvanas was Ranger-General, so she better be fighting.

Also, Sylvanas has never cared much about her fellow elves, thus it is very doubtful that killing them impacted her as much as loosing her familiy and her child did Calia.
Her soldiers were just tools to her and her sisters weren't in Silvermoon when it happened. Note how she not once wanted revenge for Silvermoon, that was Kael's thing. She wanted revenge for herself and her suffering, she did not give a crap about the others.

Sylvanas chose to throw everyone and everything under the bus if it got her her revenge, if you consider that a good way of handling her personal tragedy, then I doubt we will ever agree.

Also, what sacrifice and self-destruction are you talking about? She wasn't even there when WE beat Arthas. A fact she very clearly states and bemoans in Edge of Night.

[Vampyrr]

Again, how would you feel if Nathanos became king of Stormwind?

Why dont you instead answer the question of why Sylvanas would be better than the actual former royalty of the kingdom most of the Forsaken are from? Stop dancing around the question.

[Super Dickmann]

She wasn't a warrior then and still isn't a fighter. She was just a princess. Sylvanas was Ranger-General, so she better be fighting.

Also, Sylvanas has never cared much about her fellow elves, thus it is very doubtful that killing them impacted her as much as loosing her familiy and her child did Calia.
Her soldiers were just tools to her and her sisters weren't in Silvermoon when it happened. Note how she not once wanted revenge for Silvermoon, that was Kael's thing. She wanted revenge for herself and her suffering, she did not give a crap about the others.

Sylvanas chose to throw everyone and everything under the bus if it got her her revenge, if you consider that a good way of handling her personal tragedy, then I doubt we will ever agree.

Also, what sacrifice and self-destruction are you talking about? She wasn't even there when WE beat Arthas. A fact she very clearly states and bemoans in Edge of Night.

This is such desperate nonsense and Calia posters are as irreparable as they are disingenuous in the sense that not one of those pushing that point give one fuck about Calia except as a proxy to shit on Sylvanas and the Forsaken. Let's not bother comparing Sylvanas and Calia besides the end, let's compare Calia and a generic Lordaeronian citizen, let's call him Bob.

1. Bob and Calia both lost their family and livelihood to Arthas. Arthas was her brother and Terenas her father, whereas they were nobodies to Bob. Edge, Calia.
2. Calia went off with a footman and escaped unscathed for a refuge in Southshore for ten years. Bob either got killed by zombies and raised as an undead slave, also ran off to Southshore and got melted by Forsaken some years later or joined the Scarlet Crusade and got killed by anyone else. Edge, Bob.
3. Calia spent the intervening years getting railed by footmen. Bob spent the intervening years in a constant struggle for survival against his former kin, be they undead or living for his land. Edge, Bob.
4. After bailing from Southshore, Calia was cared for personally by the greatest human holy priest in a secure enclosed community. After bailing from Southshore, Bob became mulch for ghouls in the Sludge Fields, and/or had to fight for his life in the Alliance army, and/or was pursued by human holy priests to burn his soul in a pyre. Edge, Bob.
5. After deciding to try and bridge the human/undead divide, Calia was greeted warmly by everyone she ever met who wasn't evil, be they living or dead. If Bob were a Desolate Council member, he'd have been killed, if Bob were a regular Forsaken, he'd never have had the chance. If Bob were either human or Forsaken he'd struggle to overcome the loss of their loved ones and their existence as undead and the bad blood that he directly suffered at the hands of the other party. Edge, Bob.
6. When Calia died, she was raised into an immaculate being with the benefits of both undead and living and none of the weaknesses, embraced by the Light. When Bob died, he became a corpse or alternatively was enslaved by Arthas or alternatively kept his free will but had most of his positive feelings and his physique deteriorate to a parody of themselves. Edge, Bob.
7. Upon being pursued by Sylvanas, Calia spent time in a comfortable cottage for two years with her main squeeze and her human buddies. When Bob was pursued by Sylvanas, he expired. Edge, Bob.

Overall count:
Calia: 1
Bob: 5
Winner: Bob

Now add to Bob's trevails being forced to kill the people you were responsible for and Arthas's personal attention in your torture, having your free will returned to you only to have even the people you died in the defense of tell you to go fuck yourself and your suicide pivot you directly to hell. Sylvanas cared so little about her land and troops that she died for them and everyone involved in it mentions that without her there wouldn't be survivors in the first place, from Bob to the rangers. And even when upon being raised the then blood elves told her to go kill herself, she still did everything in her power to get them into the Horde. She found some sad zombies in a sewer and turned them into the preeminent power in Lordaeron within a couple years. But she was mean about it and ended up fucking them over at the absolute tail end, so it doesn't count and the woman who did nothing for their entire existence as a political entity should lead instead.

[VladlTutushkin]

While I appreciate that she stood and watched, Sylvanas actually fought against undead, was forcefully made into undead (read mindless zombie) and was ordered to kill her own people and kin. She suffered incomparable to this lighty-dutty sheep who is all nice and good because everybody basically treat her as my little princess starting right from the resurrection process. She didn't suffer as much as Sylvanas did. Mind also the fact that she choose passive pussy road while Sylvanas choose to fight Arthas to the end and succeeded. In fact, if not for her sacrifice and self destruction, who knows maybe The Scourge would obliterated the world because there were no pony tail Anduin The Saviour back then.

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Because she is Forsaken. That is what Forsaken do. And why not? Very cool race for that matter.

You just raging because your edgy waifu got ousted finally. Get over it or get out.

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This is such desperate nonsense and Calia posters are as irreparable as they are disingenuous in the sense that not one of those pushing that point give one fuck about Calia except as a proxy to shit on Sylvanas and the Forsaken. Let's not bother comparing Sylvanas and Calia besides the end, let's compare Calia and a generic Lordaeronian citizen, let's call him Bob.

1. Bob and Calia both lost their family and livelihood to Arthas. Arthas was her brother and Terenas her father, whereas they were nobodies to Bob. Edge, Calia.
2. Calia went off with a footman and escaped unscathed for a refuge in Southshore for ten years. Bob either got killed by zombies and raised as an undead slave, also ran off to Southshore and got melted by Forsaken some years later or joined the Scarlet Crusade and got killed by anyone else. Edge, Bob.
3. Calia spent the intervening years getting railed by footmen. Bob spent the intervening years in a constant struggle for survival against his former kin, be they undead or living for his land. Edge, Bob.
4. After bailing from Southshore, Calia was cared for personally by the greatest human holy priest in a secure enclosed community. After bailing from Southshore, Bob became mulch for ghouls in the Sludge Fields, and/or had to fight for his life in the Alliance army, and/or was pursued by human holy priests to burn his soul in a pyre. Edge, Bob.
5. After deciding to try and bridge the human/undead divide, Calia was greeted warmly by everyone she ever met who wasn't evil, be they living or dead. If Bob were a Desolate Council member, he'd have been killed, if Bob were a regular Forsaken, he'd never have had the chance. If Bob were either human or Forsaken he'd struggle to overcome the loss of their loved ones and their existence as undead and the bad blood that he directly suffered at the hands of the other party. Edge, Bob.
6. When Calia died, she was raised into an immaculate being with the benefits of both undead and living and none of the weaknesses, embraced by the Light. When Bob died, he became a corpse or alternatively was enslaved by Arthas or alternatively kept his free will but had most of his positive feelings and his physique deteriorate to a parody of themselves. Edge, Bob.
7. Upon being pursued by Sylvanas, Calia spent time in a comfortable cottage for two years with her main squeeze and her human buddies. When Bob was pursued by Sylvanas, he expired. Edge, Bob.

Overall count:
Calia: 1
Bob: 5
Winner: Bob

Now add to Bob's trevails being forced to kill the people you were responsible for and Arthas's personal attention in your torture, having your free will returned to you only to have even the people you died in the defense of tell you to go fuck yourself and your suicide pivot you directly to hell. Sylvanas cared so little about her land and troops that she died for them and everyone involved in it mentions that without her there wouldn't be survivors in the first place, from Bob to the rangers. And even when upon being raised the then blood elves told her to go kill herself, she still did everything in her power to get them into the Horde. She found some sad zombies in a sewer and turned them into the preeminent power in Lordaeron within a couple years. But she was mean about it and ended up fucking them over at the absolute tail end, so it doesn't count and the woman who did nothing for their entire existence as a political entity should lead instead.

I usually like to engage in discussions with you but on this topic... Yeah. It dosent count. She was mean. Piss off.

The sooner sylvanas is a washed away stain in history the better. Calia, Voss, it just dosent matter anymore. Simply put - there has to be a good, long rebuilding of everything to make WoW at least playable again.

[Alanar]

Tbh I think that Blizz knows that - that's why Calia is more like the advocate for the fallen night elves and Lilian Voss is the voice of the Undead.
Lilian is the perfect character right now to fit this role and I hope they won't push Calia in for the sake of being special.

Problem is lilian is boring forsaken with purple flames she forgot. Calia is unique undead.. for some reason it just sounds more interesting. But I dont care who becomes leader at this point.

[Super Dickmann]

I usually like to engage in discussions with you but on this topic... Yeah. It dosent count. She was mean. Piss off.

The sooner sylvanas is a washed away stain in history the better. Calia, Voss, it just dosent matter anymore. Simply put - there has to be a good, long rebuilding of everything to make WoW at least playable again.

Calia is one of those topics where there's really no way to muster any kind of merit-based argument in her favor. The only respectable pro-Calia position is the honest one, which is by people who don't like the Forsaken and think what she represents, retcon or not, is preferable and would be something they enjoy playing. Hell, even the people who push Calia to spite Sylvanas fans at least represent an honest emotional position, given how hated Sylvanas is in those circles. But clothing it in anything past that falls apart under the loosest inspection. She has no further virtues, be it if you assess her as a storytelling tool or as an in-story candidate for leadership. I don't mind people who're honest on that, that's fine, I've very similar views when it comes to the Wrath-era orc retcons for example, it's the disingenuousness of these positions that annoy me.

[Ethas]

That's a weird thing to say... I get what you guys are talking about, but putting suffering on a scale is strange to me. I don't think suffering works like that, even in fiction.

It does tho. The amount of suffering and response each individual gives to it differs a lot. Calia is a flower. Sylvanas is a fighter. That is all. Forsaken liked their Banshee Queen because of how strong she is despite all of the shit.

[VladlTutushkin]

Calia is one of those topics where there's really no way to muster any kind of merit-based argument in her favor. The only respectable pro-Calia position is the honest one, which is by people who don't like the Forsaken and think what she represents, retcon or not, is preferable and would be something they enjoy playing. Hell, even the people who push Calia to spite Sylvanas fans at least represent an honest emotional position, given how hated Sylvanas is in those circles. But clothing it in anything past that falls apart under the loosest inspection. She has no further virtues, be it if you assess her as a storytelling tool or as an in-story candidate for leadership. I don't mind people who're honest on that, that's fine, I've very similar views when it comes to the Wrath-era orc retcons for example, it's the disingenuousness of these positions that annoy me.

Because as i said before - Forsaken are narrative dead end. If they keep doing their usual "crazy torturer/blight nazi" jig they should die. Die as a race i mean. Horde has no reason to back up their madness anymore and their "big figure" aka Sylvanas is gone and actually gone in a way that makes them extra-fucked in the end. So they have to either QUICKLY tone down their omnicidal tendencies or face extinction. But of course narratively they cant die out so they have to somehow find a way to become more stable and less mass murdering.

And they need a representative that everybody else will just... you know, see as good. Calia is a perfect PR face fallen to forsaken hands, their last hope, frankly speaking. Not because of how good of a ruler she is but because of how she will shield them from any kind of scrutiny or Alliance lashing out.

[rowaasr13]

What are you smoking. Sylvanas shared the same fate as the rest of the Forsaken. She was murdered, violently raised and mind-controlled. She was a weapon of Arthas that killed for him. Callia experienced nothing of the sort. She's like a spoiled girl that thinks she understands the pain of an amputee because she broke a fingernail. Many WoW characters are insufferable like that.

She hid in a muddy trench for two days to avoid slavering ghouls as they prowled for her, and presumably, her mind being driven towards survival is why she doesn't remember much of that harrowing time.

Eventually, Calia made her way to Southshore, where her husband and child had been hidden away and were safe from the Scourge, and with everyone assuming she was dead she lived there in secret with her family for some time until the town was attacked by blight. The three fled along with the rest of the town, but Calia was once again separated from her family in the crowd. Screaming their names in the middle of the street, a man pulled her onto his horse and galloped past the town limits barely in time, and she joined a cluster of refugees in the forest. She prayed she'd be one of those that would be reunited with their loved ones, but this time she never saw them again, not knowing their fate.

At some point, while escaping from mindless undead, <...>

...and finally murdered by Sylvanas for trying to bring peace. So much spoilage! Why Sylvanus fans are always so ignorant of lore?

[Ethas]

This is such desperate nonsense and Calia posters are as irreparable as they are disingenuous in the sense that not one of those pushing that point give one fuck about Calia except as a proxy to shit on Sylvanas and the Forsaken. Let's not bother comparing Sylvanas and Calia besides the end, let's compare Calia and a generic Lordaeronian citizen, let's call him Bob.

1. Bob and Calia both lost their family and livelihood to Arthas. Arthas was her brother and Terenas her father, whereas they were nobodies to Bob. Edge, Calia.
2. Calia went off with a footman and escaped unscathed for a refuge in Southshore for ten years. Bob either got killed by zombies and raised as an undead slave, also ran off to Southshore and got melted by Forsaken some years later or joined the Scarlet Crusade and got killed by anyone else. Edge, Bob.
3. Calia spent the intervening years getting railed by footmen. Bob spent the intervening years in a constant struggle for survival against his former kin, be they undead or living for his land. Edge, Bob.
4. After bailing from Southshore, Calia was cared for personally by the greatest human holy priest in a secure enclosed community. After bailing from Southshore, Bob became mulch for ghouls in the Sludge Fields, and/or had to fight for his life in the Alliance army, and/or was pursued by human holy priests to burn his soul in a pyre. Edge, Bob.
5. After deciding to try and bridge the human/undead divide, Calia was greeted warmly by everyone she ever met who wasn't evil, be they living or dead. If Bob were a Desolate Council member, he'd have been killed, if Bob were a regular Forsaken, he'd never have had the chance. If Bob were either human or Forsaken he'd struggle to overcome the loss of their loved ones and their existence as undead and the bad blood that he directly suffered at the hands of the other party. Edge, Bob.
6. When Calia died, she was raised into an immaculate being with the benefits of both undead and living and none of the weaknesses, embraced by the Light. When Bob died, he became a corpse or alternatively was enslaved by Arthas or alternatively kept his free will but had most of his positive feelings and his physique deteriorate to a parody of themselves. Edge, Bob.
7. Upon being pursued by Sylvanas, Calia spent time in a comfortable cottage for two years with her main squeeze and her human buddies. When Bob was pursued by Sylvanas, he expired. Edge, Bob.

Overall count:
Calia: 1
Bob: 5
Winner: Bob

Now add to Bob's trevails being forced to kill the people you were responsible for and Arthas's personal attention in your torture, having your free will returned to you only to have even the people you died in the defense of tell you to go fuck yourself and your suicide pivot you directly to hell. Sylvanas cared so little about her land and troops that she died for them and everyone involved in it mentions that without her there wouldn't be survivors in the first place, from Bob to the rangers. And even when upon being raised the then blood elves told her to go kill herself, she still did everything in her power to get them into the Horde. She found some sad zombies in a sewer and turned them into the preeminent power in Lordaeron within a couple years. But she was mean about it and ended up fucking them over at the absolute tail end, so it doesn't count and the woman who did nothing for their entire existence as a political entity should lead instead.

This is brilliant, thank you. Poor guy that Bob

[Makabreska]

It does tho. The amount of suffering and response each individual gives to it differs a lot. Calia is a flower. Sylvanas is a fighter. That is all. Forsaken liked their Banshee Queen because of how strong she is despite all of the shit.

Don't think anyone of them likes her now.

[omeomorfismo]

Because as i said before - Forsaken are narrative dead end. If they keep doing their usual "crazy torturer/blight nazi" jig they should die. Die as a race i mean. Horde has no reason to back up their madness anymore and their "big figure" aka Sylvanas is gone and actually gone in a way that makes them extra-fucked in the end. So they have to either QUICKLY tone down their omnicidal tendencies or face extinction. But of course narratively they cant die out so they have to somehow find a way to become more stable and less mass murdering.

And they need a representative that everybody else will just... you know, see as good. Calia is a perfect PR face fallen to forsaken hands, their last hope, frankly speaking. Not because of how good of a ruler she is but because of how she will shield them from any kind of scrutiny or Alliance lashing out.

to not kill the race we will kill the race!
logic is not found in blizzard hq

[Ethas]

You just raging because your edgy waifu got ousted finally. Get over it or get out.

I don't want iconic WC3 characters go "just because". And certainly I don't want them to be replaced by spineless Alliance noname pawns who talk peace but wage war all the time.