Calia will ruin the forsaken

[Hugnomo]

As in all topics virtually everyone who pushes for Calia neither plays nor likes Forsaken or even Horde for that matter. That said, the topic title is wrong in the sense that the Forsaken have been dead since BTS and everything else has just been the world's most drawnout funeral.

Also memes that equate Sylvanas shooting down defecting high officials in melodramatic weepy prose to genocide or mining materials to Brennadam is god tier.

"People who disagree with me are bad and have ill intent"

[Super Dickmann]

"People who disagree with me are bad and have ill intent"

There's nothing bad about disliking fictional characters, but a spade is a spade. You're welcome to point me to someone who doesn't fit that gist, I'll wait.

[omeomorfismo]

Using someone as cannon fodder doesn't make them strong. It makes you strong not them.

And why did u bold the Voss part? She was against Sylvanas and in a single expansion willingly left her ideals behind to follow her blindly.

because i mistranslated that part, my bad

anyway "cannon fodder" is lie. she used them as bulwark, thats completely a different thing

[Mehrunes]

Using someone as cannon fodder doesn't make them strong. It makes you strong not them.

And why did u bold the Voss part? She was against Sylvanas and in a single expansion willingly left her ideals behind to follow her blindly.

She literally turned the Forsaken from a ragtag bunch of scared, confused undead without a place in the world to one of the strongest powers on Azeroth (which they proved even when Sylvanas wasn't around to command them), but please do go on how she didn't make them strong.

[Hugnomo]

There's nothing bad about disliking fictional characters, but a spade is a spade. You're welcome to point me to someone who doesn't fit that gist, I'll wait.

I have and play Forsaken characters, I like the Forsaken and I like Calia Menethil. But I suppose there's other assumptions you can make to delegitimize me as a fan of the race and the game lore as a whole. I accept that you dislike her, I have crossed paths with you on this subject before. I have no problem with your position on the character or the direction of the race, I just hoped you would extend the same respect to people with different opinions, without making negative assumptions to waive them aside from the start.

[Xilurm]

They actually did lol.

Calia is Arthas' older sister and yet Arthas was the heir to the throne. Sure, blizz would undoutedly change that now, but they still wrote King Terenas naming Arthas the heir over Calia at one point.

Yeah but that was in 2004.

[Aucald]

Yeah but that was in 2004.

The Human kingdoms in WoW are probably built along the model of medieval Europe, using male primogeniture as the rule of the day. That is to say, the crown passes to a ruler's eldest son first, then to the next eligible son, and finally down the tree until they run out of male children or grandchildren. Only then would it come to rest at a daughter as a possible queen, but would move to her husband were she to marry.

[qwerty123456]

She literally turned the Forsaken from a ragtag bunch of scared, confused undead without a place in the world to one of the strongest powers on Azeroth (which they proved even when Sylvanas wasn't around to command them), but please do go on how she didn't make them strong.

They became one of the stronger powers of Azeroth because of the Horde. Which she only sided with to keep her ass alive longer. She also Knowingly cursed everyone she raised to a horrible second life and death.

She even betrayed her boytoy in the end.

because i mistranslated that part, my bad

anyway "cannon fodder" is lie. she used them as bulwark, thats completely a different thing

Cannon Fodder is accurate as she used them in war. She could have easily ask thrall to let the join in a non combative capacity but she didn't she let them continually go on the front lines and perma die since she could always raise more.

[Super Dickmann]

I have and play Forsaken characters, I like the Forsaken and I like Calia Menethil. But I suppose there's other assumptions you can make to delegitimize me as a fan of the race and the game lore as a whole. I accept that you dislike her, I have crossed paths with you on this subject before. I have no problem with your position on the character or the direction of the race, I just hoped you would extend the same respect to people with different opinions, without making negative assumptions to waive them aside from the start.

We have discussed this before and I specifically call your position respectable on the same page you're quoting me from:

The only respectable pro-Calia position is the honest one, which is by people who don't like the Forsaken and think what she represents, retcon or not, is preferable and would be something they enjoy playing.

You didn't enjoy the Forsaken before BTS, but enjoy their characterization there and think it's a valid trade to ditch their prior aspects so that you can enjoy this version of them. That's fine. I can vehemently disagree with you and what this being a zero sum situation I'd much prefer I keep the race I've enjoyed even if it means those who do enjoy Calia lose what they like about her. But that doesn't mean that it isn't an accurate description of you and many other posters on this or the weakness of the pro-Calia position on substantive or continuity grounds.

[Marmot]

How many major Forsaken characters are there? I can't even think of any besides Lilian Voss and Calia. Maybe this is the time for them to consider fleshing them out with some interesting characters that aren't just copy pastes of others with different names.

[Hugnomo]

We have discussed this before and I specifically call your position respectable on the same page you're quoting me from:



You didn't enjoy the Forsaken before BTS, but enjoy their characterization there and think it's a valid trade to ditch their prior aspects so that you can enjoy this version of them. That's fine. I can vehemently disagree with you and what this being a zero sum situation I'd much prefer I keep the race I've enjoyed even if it means those who do enjoy Calia lose what they like about her. But that doesn't mean that it isn't an accurate description of you and many other posters on this or the weakness of the pro-Calia position on substantive or continuity grounds.

Well thank you for extending that sentiment. I'll just insist on a small correction: I did enjoy the Forsaken before BTS. I have enjoyed them since Warcraft III. I just also enjoy Calia and whatever new aspects she may bring to them. I understand they're probably dissimilar aspects, I just have appreciation for both. I say "probably" because we've barely seen anything from Calia and what themes she may bring, which is why I also feel that it seems precocious to pigeonhole her already.

[omeomorfismo]

They became one of the stronger powers of Azeroth because of the Horde. Which she only sided with to keep her ass alive longer. She also Knowingly cursed everyone she raised to a horrible second life and death.

She even betrayed her boytoy in the end.



Cannon Fodder is accurate as she used them in war. She could have easily ask thrall to let the join in a non combative capacity but she didn't she let them continually go on the front lines and perma die since she could always raise more.

are you speaking pre or post cata?
pre cata everyone was in suicide charge, even sylvanas herself
after, only garrosh used the forsaken as cannon fodder and sylvanas run from northrend to stop specifically his methods

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How many major Forsaken characters are there? I can't even think of any besides Lilian Voss and Calia. Maybe this is the time for them to consider fleshing them out with some interesting characters that aren't just copy pastes of others with different names.

belmont (<3), faranell, lydon, hercular, mortuus, ghunter, the black bride, damn even gordo and the comrade from deathknell are better than voss

[Schattenlied]

The forsaken were ruined 11 years ago, when they went from "what joy is there in this curse?" and "free will matters more than anything to us" to being perfectly fine forcing undeath upon others.

[omeomorfismo]

Well thank you for extending that sentiment. I'll just insist on a small correction: I did enjoy the Forsaken before BTS. I have enjoyed them since Warcraft III. I just also enjoy Calia and whatever new aspects she may bring to them. I understand they're probably dissimilar aspects, I just have appreciation for both. I say "probably" because we've barely seen anything from Calia and what themes she may bring, which is why I also feel that it seems precocious to pigeonhole her already.

what are the contact point with the deathstalkers and apothecaries and anything voss or calia did? really, "probably dissimar aspects"? they are not a 180° turn but a 900° turn with somersault included

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The Human kingdoms in WoW are probably built along the model of medieval Europe, using male primogeniture as the rule of the day. That is to say, the crown passes to a ruler's eldest son first, then to the next eligible son, and finally down the tree until they run out of male children or grandchildren. Only then would it come to rest at a daughter as a possible queen, but would move to her husband were she to marry.

actually in golden's novel its expliticed written that calia wasnt even considered to be an heir. she was a woman and was only marriage material, nothing more. explicity.
its even reiterated in the bts novel that she didnt received any political teaching...

[Arrashi]

The forsaken were ruined 11 years ago, when they went from "what joy is there in this curse?" and "free will matters more than anything to us" to being perfectly fine forcing undeath upon others.

Yeah, because they totally didn't have lobotomites running in UC since vanilla.

[omeomorfismo]

Yeah, because they totally didn't have lobotomites running in UC since vanilla.

oh, and they absolutely ever never built any abomination until cata!

[Ardenaso]

you guys should know that Forsaken is anything free willed undead: from Humans to High Elves to Nerubians to Trolls to Dwarves to Orcs to Night Elves to Banshees to Obsidian Statues

Sylvanas is fine as leader; Velonara could also be fine as leader; heck even Sira could be fine as a leader

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also, haven't seen an Alliance vs. Horde argument since like 3 months now; you guys should also know that Alliance isn't meant to be the good faction and the Horde isn't meant to be the evil faction. It's more like Alliance is law and order and Horde is chaos and permissibility where the Horde can be cruel to the cruel to look for peace and the Alliance can oppress others under the guise of peace, and other way around. I know the Horde did many evil things but the Alliance is yet to be held accountable for the Tyr's Hand massacre, the Stonespire genocide, and the Purge of Dalaran

[Raisei]

Calia is one of those topics where there's really no way to muster any kind of merit-based argument in her favor. The only respectable pro-Calia position is the honest one, which is by people who don't like the Forsaken and think what she represents, retcon or not, is preferable and would be something they enjoy playing.

While I disagree with your points above, I freely admit this is part fo my reasoning. Don't think I have ever hidden my dislike for the Forsaken, not because I dislike the race itself or want people to not have their RP. I dislike how they are implemented and think they just do not fit. They should not be part of the Horde, or any non-evil organisation, because that requires people around them to become blind and stupid. Yes, they have created a bit of conflict in the Horde, but by far too little for the things they have done and didn't do.

Like how about the Cows asking how far the RAS got on that cure? Because that was kind of a thing when they recommend Thrall to let them join, but woops 15 years later and still no cure. Now I am not unfair, there most likely is no cure to be found, but since we know the RAS never even attempted to make one it is mighty convenient that the Cows never even asked, right?

[Mehrunes]

They became one of the stronger powers of Azeroth because of the Horde. Which she only sided with to keep her ass alive longer. She also Knowingly cursed everyone she raised to a horrible second life and death.

She even betrayed her boytoy in the end.

Except for the part where there is barely any Horde presence in Forsaken territory in either Vanilla quests or post-Cata quests. The same applies to Forsaken missions in Howling Fjord and Stormheim. They conquered their enemies and built their position on their own, whether you want to cover your ears and eyes in regards to that fact or not.

[Okacz]

You dislike her because she isn't edgy and evil and thus the Forsaken won't be allowed to be edgy and evil should she truely lead them.

I mean... kinda? Why would you reinvent the wheel? Forsaken were introduced as race all about necromancy, subterfuge, blight and all this shit. They are the zombie race in WoW. If you pick it as the class that you play, you probably like those themes, or want them represented in your character. Isn't it better to get, you know, a proper Forsaken for the job?

Or I don't know, how about you introduce a drunken orcish lumberjack as the new Night Elf leader who associates with them because he's too been in a forest, and his ears are kinda pointy. Makes as much sense.