Bring back warforging!

[NineSpine]

Yes, you do. Because completing a raid is an accomplishment. But you have completely shot yourself in the foot here, as expected. Your claim is that Mythic raiders get that feeling, but people on lower difficulties dont, and they are unhappy about it. You have entirely contradicted yourself and proved my point for me.

ps - i love your "simple little single player games" addition - just trying to move those goalposts a little at a time. lol.

A basic single player game, which has a beginning middle and end, has something that a service based game does not. That thing is the “end” part. An “end” provides a sense of “completion”.

Let’s take a single player game that this rule does not apply to, and use it as an example. That game is Dead Cells. When you beat the game, it just gives you the option to play on the next difficulty. You don’t get the true final level until you complete it on the fifth difficulty. The initial completion comes with no ending, no credits, nothing. This makes the initial completion unfulfilling, and feel more like finishing a level than finishing a game.

Do you seriously need me to keep explaining this concept to you? You really need someone to explain why things with endings have a sense of ending? This is so obnoxious and boring.

[arkanon]

There's a reason I have them on ignore. There is no point in debating the issue with them. I agree with you that comparing single player games reward structures to an MMO is utterly asinine.

No, it was related to tiered difficulties giving players a path ahead to improve and get better gear. Someone said thats a good motivator to push into more challenging content, if you are that way inclined. the response was:

No, it is very bad for the game. Creating a situation where only 1% of players ever get any sense of completion does not make players happy.

This makes the claim that the existence of a higher difficulty removes any sense of completion. I have stated that the participation numbers in lower difficulties, right through a tiers lifespan, shows that is not the case. And in this context, the nature of the game has absolutely no bearing at all, as even single players games have DLC, expansions, sequels.....And even without those things, it is still a very acceptable comparison to make.

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A basic single player game, which has a beginning middle and end, has something that a service based game does not. That thing is the “end” part. An “end” provides a sense of “completion”.

Do you seriously need me to keep explaining this concept to you? You really need someone to explain why things with endings have a sense of ending? This is so obnoxious and boring.

Sure, but your comment was NOT "a live service mmo will never give a player a sense of completion" your comment was that only Mythic raiders get a sense of completion.

No, it is very bad for the game. Creating a situation where only 1% of players ever get any sense of completion does not make players happy.

[NineSpine]

No, it was related to tiered difficulties giving players a path ahead to improve and get better gear. Someone said thats a good motivator to push into more challenging content, if you are that way inclined. the response was:



This makes the claim that the existence of a higher difficulty removes any sense of completion. I have stated that the participation numbers in lower difficulties, right through a tiers lifespan, shows that is not the case. And in this context, the nature of the game has absolutely no bearing at all, as even single players games have DLC, expansions, sequels.....And even without those things, it is still a very acceptable comparison to make.

The first minute of any given game has the highest participation rate of the game, therefore the first minute of every game is the best part of the game.

Do you see the hole in your logic?

[arkanon]

The first minute of any given game has the highest participation rate of the game, therefore the first minute of every game is the best part of the game.

Do you see the hole in your logic?

right through a tiers lifespan - gotta read before replying. Cute that you continue to deflect and ignore the point i am making - your claim is that a mythic raider get a sense of completion, while other tiers of difficulty do not offer that same feeling for the players, and it feels bad......

Then you swapped tac and started saying that the genre in general offers no sense of completion, which contradicts your previous statement, and takes us full circle back to there being no issue here.

[NineSpine]

right through a tiers lifespan - gotta read before replying.

The first minute of a game is always the most played, forever, through all DLC. It is a universal law that will forever be true for every video game ever made. This is clearly rock solid logic,

[arkanon]

The first minute of a game is always the most played, forever, through all DLC. It is a universal law that will forever be true for every video game ever made. This is clearly rock solid logic,

Cute that you continue to deflect and ignore the point i am making - your claim is that a mythic raider get a sense of completion, while other tiers of difficulty do not offer that same feeling for the players, and it feels bad......

Then you swapped tac and started saying that the genre in general offers no sense of completion, which contradicts your previous statement, and takes us full circle back to there being no issue here.

[NineSpine]

Cute that you continue to deflect and ignore the point i am making - your claim is that a mythic raider get a sense of completion, while other tiers of difficulty do not offer that same feeling for the players, and it feels bad......

Then you swapped tac and started saying that the genre in general offers no sense of completion, which contradicts your previous statement, and takes us full circle back to there being no issue here.

I never said the genre can’t offer completion. I said that you can’t compare the sense of completion in a game with an end to a game without an end. They operate by different principles entirely, and drawing a comparison is a silly waste of time.

Ironically, I believe difficulty settings are bad design in general, in all types of games, but even though I think this role is fairly universal, I’m not going to engage in silly crap that would get a designer asked to leave a meeting, like comparing a service based game to a single player game with an ending.

[Tadkins]

Yup, I don't disagree with you really - like I said, its available to you, but not without making some changes and sacrifices. I will say one thing though - if Mythic is something you did want to try, dont give up hope completely. All those things you listed? They are far more tolerable later in the tier. Sure, you wont be chasing world first or anything like that, but there are plenty of guilds who finish the tier 75% through mythic and are happy with that.

Anyway, at the end of the day, if you are happy in heroic and enjoying playing what you want, how you want, then yeah, dont change anything.

I appreciate that. For the most part I am happy with sticking to heroic, just would like reasons to keep going back even after the 20th clear. Whether that be the return of WF/TF, adding some rare mounts or upgrade currency, etc, I don't really care. I'd take anything along those lines.

If my guild ever wanted to do mythic, I wouldn't be opposed to it, because I know we're the inclusive type that won't rage at you for making mistakes or not having perfect scores/logs. I'd gladly learn with my friends there. I'm just not able to bring myself to leave them and dive head-first into what could possibly be a very harsh environment.

[Argorwal]

Ok well you clearly have no idea what you're talking about so I'm done responding to you. Loot drops were reduced in ALL content, which is why people like me are getting hit with zero loot drops in 10 heroic dungeons. Nothing but gold. But I guess you somehow know better about MY experience in the game. As a result, I'm done debating this with you.

There is nothing to debate. It’s not an opinion that heroic/mythic-0 loot drop rates are unchanged from BFA.

Every boss drops at least 1 item.

10 dungeons is 40 bosses.

So you want me to believe, with a 1 in 5 chance (20%) you didn’t get 1 item on 40 straight boss kills? And more than 1 item can drop on a boss that I’m ignoring.

Again, perfect example of lying or exaggerating on the forums.

[arkanon]

I never said the genre can’t offer completion. I said that you can’t compare the sense of completion in a game with an end to a game without an end.

Nononono, you said that Mythic raids offer a sense of completion greater than other difficulties, and thats why people are unhappy.

No, it is very bad for the game. Creating a situation where only 1% of players ever get any sense of completion does not make players happy.

There, thats what you said. You said that other difficulties offer NO sense of completion, while mythic does. Do you disagree with that assessment?

[Zyrinx]

I liked it before, I'd like it now, and I would like it in the future.

[arkanon]

I appreciate that. For the most part I am happy with sticking to heroic, just would like reasons to keep going back even after the 20th clear. Whether that be the return of WF/TF, adding some rare mounts or upgrade currency, etc, I don't really care. I'd take anything along those lines.

If my guild ever wanted to do mythic, I wouldn't be opposed to it, because I know we're the inclusive type that won't rage at you for making mistakes or not having perfect scores/logs. I'd gladly learn with my friends there. I'm just not able to bring myself to leave them and dive head-first into what could possibly be a very harsh environment.

Yeah and I honestly believe your thought process and opinions line up with most if not all the players I have ever played with in Heroic, when I do. My alt was parked in a guild with a group of IRL friends who didnt have time to commit to Heroic (before it was called mythic), and we would often group up towards the end of a tiers lifespan and go knock over most if not all of the raid. Sure, it wasnt an impressive feat - thousands of guilds had cleared it by then - but it was still a really enjoyable experience for the reason you stated - it was a close group of friends, and stupid wipes were FAR more likely to result in rapturous laughter than a telling off from some sweaty kneckbeard.

[munkeyinorbit]

The first minute of a game is always the most played, forever, through all DLC. It is a universal law that will forever be true for every video game ever made. This is clearly rock solid logic,

Wrong. The first minute of wow did not have more minutes played than the first minute of Classic, TBC, WotLk, Cata ...etc.

How about instead of dodging the question and being even more wrong with your goal post moving you answer the question. They are

Why do you think mythic players get more satisfaction over killing bosses than lesser skilled players?

Why do you believe a player cannot finish a game on a lower difficulty?

Please answer. It's just embarrassing watching you dodge the questions.

[NineSpine]

Nononono, you said that Mythic raids offer a sense of completion greater than other difficulties, and thats why people are unhappy.



There, thats what you said. You said that other difficulties offer NO sense of completion, while mythic does. Do you disagree with that assessment?

Stop looking for a way to dunk internet debate tough guy points and just engage like a normal human being.

I think the current structure of wow offers little to no sense of completion for anyone doing anything below mythic raids.

I think that this is the case for a variety of reasons, but mainly that the ladder of progression is far too granular and repetitive.

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Wrong. The first minute of wow did not have more minutes played than the first minute of Classic, TBC, WotLk, Cata ...etc.

How about instead of dodging the question and being even more wrong with your goal post moving you answer the question. They are

Why do you think mythic players get more satisfaction over killing bosses than lesser skilled players?

Why do you believe a player cannot finish a game on a lower difficulty?

Please answer. It's just embarrassing watching you dodge the questions.

Because nothing is complete at lower difficulty levels in wow. Lower difficulty levels are intentionally constructed to feel like preparation for higher difficulty levels. By the time most guilds that do normal-heroic defeat the final boss of normal, they can do some encounters on heroic. The same goes once you scale up to mythic. There isn’t a hard stop followed by a new difficulty, which would at least provide a small sense of completion. Instead, most raiding guilds are always in some state BETWEEN difficulties.

[arkanon]

I think the current structure of wow offers little to no sense of completion for anyone doing anything below mythic raids.

OK so we have confirmed that you believe unless you are completing the raid on mythic, there is no sense of completion. Progression!

Your reasons make absolutely no sense, but i would welcome a more well thought out and articulate reasoning as to WHY Mythic offers a sense of completion, while no other difficulty does? I'm genuinely interested to know WHY you feel this way.

I will look past your baseless statement that it is a reason people are unhappy, as that is obviously entirely beyond your understanding and knowledge.

[NineSpine]

OK so we have confirmed that you believe unless you are completing the raid on mythic, there is no sense of completion. Progression!

Your reasons make absolutely no sense, but i would welcome a more well thought out and articulate reasoning as to WHY Mythic offers a sense of completion, while no other difficulty does? I'm genuinely interested to know WHY you feel this way.

I will look past your baseless statement that it is a reason people are unhappy, as that is obviously entirely beyond your understanding and knowledge.

See my previous message.

[arkanon]

Because nothing is complete at lower difficulty levels in wow. Lower difficulty levels are intentionally constructed to feel like preparation for higher difficulty levels. By the time most guilds that do normal-heroic defeat the final boss of normal, they can do some encounters on heroic. The same goes once you scale up to mythic. There isn’t a hard stop followed by a new difficulty, which would at least provide a small sense of completion. Instead, most raiding guilds are always in some state BETWEEN difficulties.

Where are you coming up with this information? Some guilds step up in difficulty, some complete LFR and say "sweet, experienced all the story, im happy!" and dont ever attempt normal. Same can be said for other difficulties. A friend plays in a casual guild who full clear normal then raiding stops until the next tier - you know why? Because they feel a sense of completion and like to vary their spare time with other games, pvp, xmog runs and other alt friendly activities.

Who are you to say these people are wrong?

Because nothing is complete at lower difficulty levels in wow.

this right here, the base of your entirely flawed argument? Its just your personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Truth is, there are always other challenges that exist, even in SP games. Some people finish a story on easy and say "sweet, complete!" other people want to finish it on the hardest difficulty before they consider it complete, and others again want to 100% a game before they feel it is complete. It is entirely subjective, and not for you to say when people should feel a sense of completion.

Why is it that you draw a line in the sand at clearing it on Mythic? What if someone came along and said "eeeew, you feel a sense of completion just because you killed it on mythic? Gross, filthy casual - you havnt REALLY completed it until you have done all achievements in the raid, on mythic! anything else is just fake!"

An extreme example, obviously, but just pointing out that everyone can feel a sense of achievement, accomplishment, and completion, based on their own entirely subjective criteria.

[NineSpine]

Where are you coming up with this information? Some guilds step up in difficulty, some complete LFR and say "sweet, experienced all the story, im happy!" and dont ever attempt normal. Same can be said for other difficulties. A friend plays in a casual guild who full clear normal then raiding stops until the next tier - you know why? Because they feel a sense of completion and like to vary their spare time with other games, pvp, xmog runs and other alt friendly activities.

Who are you to say these people are wrong?

Some people like everything. Some people like being shit on, but that’s not going to invalidate the statement that being shit on is not generally considered a positive experience.

It’s not about being right or wrong. It’s about having designed games and considered these issues in the process, and we know how players feel about things because we ask them. We test games and get feedback. We poll them. These aren’t some crazy mysteries of the universe like you are acting they are.

To some people, a sense of completion is not important, so they’re happy collecting things.

[prwraith]

Am I the only person who actually likes this concept? And by no means was it implemented succesfully.
Because the ilvl got way to high thanks to titanforging..
I also miss the days of reforging but for some lame reason(s) we can't have that back..

Please god everyone ignore this.

[arkanon]

Some people like everything. Some people like being shit on, but that’s not going to invalidate the statement that being shit on is not generally considered a positive experience.

It’s not about being right or wrong. It’s about having designed games and considered these issues in the process, and we know how players feel about things because we ask them. We test games and get feedback. We poll them. These aren’t some crazy mysteries of the universe like you are acting they are.

To some people, a sense of completion is not important, so they’re happy collecting things.

Another deflection. So you say you are in the game industry and poll people etc, why is it that 40+ years in the overwhelming majority of games still have some form of selectable difficulty (easy/normal/hard), matchmaking, ranked leagues, or dynamically scaling difficulty (games that get a little easier when you fail at something X number of times).

If this is true..........have you, some random person, uncovered the holy grail of game design, decades in? Its kinda like you are saying you know better than all those who have come before you, which is an extremely bold claim.

Lastly, as stated earlier, even games with one set difficulty have various levels of "completion", and even beyond that you have some individuals who push those even further with speed running, or feats like what that Rextroy (unsure of name, something like that) do were they solo bosses.

What im saying is that the "1%" as you call it will ALWAYS exist, for all but #1 there is someone better than them, and even for #1, there is someone coming to dethrone you. That doesnt mean the other 99% dont feel a sense of completion when they complete the goals they have set for themselves - be it clearing it on normal, getting 1800 in pvp, finishing the game on easy, or w/e other goal they have.

If i was talking to someone and i said "oh hey, I completed X game the other day, I really enjoyed it!", and their response was "yeah? but have you done it on ultra turbo mega difficulty? if not you havnt really completed it" i would not continue the conversation with that person.

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Please god everyone ignore this.

Reforging is the only system that my heart often says "omg i miss that, i would love it back!" before my brain jumps in and says "noonono, hold on, here are some memories of what it was actually like, stfu heart, it was actually crap"