Something isn't right in PvP

[crazyswayzee]

this happens when blizzard pushed hardocre pvers into pvp .

they obliterate pvpers

you never had chance since blizzard nerfed pve loot

Yeah sure the almighty pve'ers are the reason. What a trash comment

[kukkamies]

This is one of the most diverse pvp seasons we've had in a very, very long time. Yeah, sure fire mage is very strong and DH is a bit lackluster but everyone else is doing pretty well & every class has multiple glad-worthy specs.

Is it that different from the past 5 or so expansions arena balance?
Around 4 specs are really op, 5-7 specs pretty good and the leftover 20 you are gimping the team at top. Hunter, dk and warlock also don't have any good.

[crusadernero]

You just smash all CD buttons and abilities quickly as you can while attacking and hope its your team coming out of it alive. If by some miracle of god you all survive the first seconds of nuclear bombs, you might have a cool match on your hand. After that it becomes more important when/who you stun/cc, when to use CDs again and all that.

But who are we kidding. That sort of matches doesnt really happen all that much.

Oh well, atleast its over quickly.

[Strawberry]

Sick and tired of getting convoke nuked by stealthed druids in arenas.
Either convoke or stealth has to go.

[Johnmatrix]

Negative.

I've seen 230 geared players nearly one shot by hunters around 180 ilevel.


I have too much experience in PvP over the the past six years to think it's still the same game.

The flow and pace has changed radically.

I've read this whole thread through, and one thing you are right about is that the pace really has changed. However, it's only changed when compared to the latest expansions. Shadowlands is much closer to any expansion before WoD. Thank god for that.

Your first claim is so wrong that it almost destroys your whole point. 220 ilvl players will pretty much oneshot that 180 ilvl hunter, but its impossible the other way around. You keep saying that gear changes nothing, but it's clear that you are not talking about experience, because it changes everything. I could 2-3 shot you on that low gear you have easily, but a 220+ priest is a completely different case. Gear matters more than it ever did between WoD and BfA. Why do you think tournament games still play deep in the 50% dampening if a good player can't survive any openers?

Your keep comparing it to chess and fps. If anything, the faster meta is like speed chess. Same game but you need to think faster and can't make mistakes. Slow game allows for so many mistakes to be made and get away with it unpunished. In this meta the game is over quick if you don't know what you are doing. Slow meta with too strong healers makes playing with a healer in 2s mandatory. Look how much more diversity there is atm with different comps and specs in arena.

Well I bet playing healer in RBG is not as fun as it was before, I'll give you that. It's always more fun to play when you are stronger. But you are not counting that RBG is seeing huge increase in participation now that it's the fastest (and easiest) way to farm rated honor. There's always been more dps players in this game, and there won't be enough healers for all of them, all the time.

[Recovery]

The tradeoff of less room for errors is the game is way less tactical, you can't save a CD anymore to use later, enemy pops CDs you must respond with CDs
its more reactionary gameplay and less tactical, which is quite boring
If i wanted to play reactionary game I'd go play COD

I dont remember a time (since BC MAYBE wrath) that wow wasnt "reactionary" gameplay. At least you have a chance to react, unlike in BFA when you were 1 shot BY TDs, Gushing, PVE tinkets, etc, that had no tells at all and just procd death.

If youre popping every defensive you have when they pop cds, youre doing it way wrong. So, you should DEFINITELY have stuff to "save for later".

At the highest ratings, wow has pretty much always been "reactionary". It was just more forgiving if you DIDNT react in the past.

Arena is definitely still tactical.

Xaryu said it best: "The game is most healthy when all classes have burst damage. If I pop every single offensive CD and you pop nothing defensively or don't shut down my damage, you SHOULD die within a few globals."

I completely agree. In fact, ill take it a step further. If even one class is hitting you with their cds up and you pop nothing, you should die. It shouldnt even take 2 players to kill you.

The point where this becomes a problem can be seen at the beginning of shadowlands when you pop every defensive you have and STILL die to rogue damage.(Of course blizzard OVERCOMPENSATED that per usual and now rogues are just cc bots.)

Oh and by the way, as always, the community is what drove the game to this point. X class needs another defensive. X class needs a self heal. X class needs this and that.. The community drove the game design to be based around CDs.

[WanSko]

Yes PvP is pretty broken atm because they keep on insisting on their "one size fits all" policy of wanting everyone to do every form of content without changing anything. That means broken PvE stuff like Convoke gets carried into PvP, and things run askew.

[Shyning]

Negative.

I've seen 230 geared players nearly one shot by hunters around 180 ilevel.

Want to know how I know you made that up?

[Aggressive]

I've been High Warlord for several seaons and maintain 2.2k to 2.4k in arena through Legion and BFA.

I just came back to this expansion and I'm being one shot by hunters through LoS and other classes.

I've had warrior charge me and one shot me before Pain Suppression or Guardian Spirit can even be activated (depending on spec)

Wtf happened.

This is not the same game.

If I wanted to play a game where one/two shots were the norm I'd be playing an FPS.

-------------------------------------------
Update, straight from the horse's mouth:



https://ibb.co/LQ8mnth


For lulz, I'm screen shotted this before I went to bed.



https://ibb.co/bHcC1Wq

PvP has always been a slippery slope of BULLSHIT. The problem of PvP this expansion could be the fault of the developers, but I will also blame the issue on the player. One of the things you will see this expansion, and a lot of it, is "The class plays just fine. L2P" So you can definitely blame it on the developers and the players.

Blizzard is "claiming" to listen to the players this expansion. So all the feedback is being taken into consideration. And the people playing the overbalanced classes feel that their class is just fine is what is making the game highly unfun at the moment. So yeah PvP is pure shit right now.

And one more thing Shalaator. I know you want a good conversation on this topic. You won't find it here on these forums. If you haven't already, people will report you for simply NOT agreeing with them on something and you will get infractions just for holding onto your opinion. I have only gotten a couple but the latest one I got I looked at my comment and it wasn't even troll like the bot said. I just said I didn't what I agreed on and that who gives a fuck. So trust me when I say. It might be better to move on. You are talking to a brick wall right now.

[Danvash]

People talk about how one shotting players who can't do anything about it is fine because it "makes the game fast paced."

But then things like holy paladins and triune wards exist to send most matches into dampening regardless.

[Merin]

Is it that different from the past 5 or so expansions arena balance?
Around 4 specs are really op, 5-7 specs pretty good and the leftover 20 you are gimping the team at top. Hunter, dk and warlock also don't have any good.

There never has and never will be a season where the majority of SPECS are taken, not even fucking close. It's a good season when every class has a good answer answer or two, which they largely do right now. Saying that Hunter, DK and Warlock have no options is actually asinine and you literally should not be PvPing if you believe that.

Peck down some of the bullshit, mostly covenant related, and you have a really good season considering its the opener. I worry more about scaling in the middle/later stages of the expansion than I do RNG Youtube burst.

[willtron]

Negative.

I've seen 230 geared players nearly one shot by hunters around 180 ilevel.

No you haven't

[Djuntas]

Its way to bursty - When I first tried some pvp in SL at item level 170 I was like...Well once we all got 40-50k HP it will be better, but meeh...You will just do more damage as well...Its not fun to get ganked by a rogue in 5 sec's 100% stunlocked no chance even at item level 200.

- - - Updated - - -

Sick and tired of getting convoke nuked by stealthed druids in arenas.
Either convoke or stealth has to go.

As a feral druid I agree, its very clunky and gimmicky. Its nice in PvM, but I dont wanna rely on that either...Especially since its so easy to counter if you have pvp trinket or can bubble/iceblock or whatever.

[Tumile]

Negative.

I've seen 230 geared players nearly one shot by hunters around 180 ilevel.


I have too much experience in PvP over the the past six years to think it's still the same game.

The flow and pace has changed radically.

I 100% agree with the video that you linked, or atleast the sentiment, the balancing is the worst ive seen since getting my week 1 raggy kill and Generation 0 HW Title in Classic wow.

The guy obviously isnt particularly good, discerned from what he says like Sub rogues still one shotting people. only thing sub rogue is one shotting is people with way less gear, or WW Monks who play relentless.

He obviously doesnt understand the issue with Boomies and convoke either. They are not useless without convoke, infact boomies are somewhat balanced... if you just remove convoke entirely from their kit and give them nothing in return. are they as strong as rets, warrior, elemental shamans, fire mages etc? no because those classes arent balanced.

But if you are getting "one shot" by hunters, then it has to be MM, and they have to pop 4 globals before their damage even starts going out. this isnt some small shit, we're talking they will start glowing, then the biggest circle of glowing shit storm will appear, and then they have to put a Dispellable debuff on you that blows up after 4 seconds and then CHANNEL rapid fire. if you are dying to this, it simply means you are fucking god awful and was unable to press any buttons on ur keyboard due to your own short comings OR you play with 22000 Ping. cuz you have roughly 8 seconds to react before he even does any fucking real damage to you.

a ilvl 226 BiS hunter cannot even kill my 226 Rogue with his burst unless he gets slightly lucky with crits if I stand still and take it all to my face. I am the Squishiest possible target for him to hit, a long with Monks and AFK mages. he has to burst for 12 seconds straight, and STILL cannot kill me if he doesnt crit on his explosive shot and Aimed shot.

I would also like to know what the "there is no counter play" scenarios are. I agree that some exist (like Warrior intervene making Jungle and Thug cleave unplayable as it is 100% loss for any full phys team vs warrior teams) but the most absurd burst in the game is Fire mage, Elemental shaman, Enhancement shamans and Rets. all of them have counter plays, except for Ret paladins. Their setups are obvious and they force themselves into a forced play window, meaning once they pop their CD's they cannot back out. with the exception of the Mage and Ret that means you have ATLEAST 1 global to see they are about to burst. and their burst is ATLEAST 2 globals long. meaning you have AT MINIMUM 2 globals to counter it with either CC and peels, or Defensive CD's. if ur reaction time is 3> seconds, then maybe PVP isnt for you.

[Luxeley]

If you just came back your likely undergeared and don’t have a lot of verse as well as not knowing how the classes currently work with there covenant ability's.

Under geared, probably part of the reason why. Not enough Versat, definitely not the case. I am at diminishing returns with versat (north of 26%) and I am still getting one shot. The next cliche response is, it's a L2P issue. Nope. Most of the time nothing can be done due to CC immunity or a very good stealth opener. So what's the solution? Pop all your defenses the millisecond you see a Fire Mage came out of invis with Combustion up? Have everyone play Ret, WW, Frost DK and Fire Mage and screw everything else? Can add Boomkin to the list as well, but then again at least Convoke the Spirits can easily be interrupted. The overwhelming majority of classes cant top a Ret w/Bubble and Wings up. WW dmg is off-the charts retarded and its almost impossible to root or snare them. Frost DK cant be CC'd through AMS by any given dps caster and they simply do NOT die.

The dmg in Pvp is way too bursty and most of it, with few exceptions, is coming from Melee for the umteenth time. Then again, this isn't a new problem. Its been around since day 1 and happens to be part of the reason why WOW pvp's popularity is nowhere near it's peak in MOP. Its a shame really, Pvp in Wow possesses enormous potential and Blizzard is clueless about it. Always have been that way, always will be that way

[Tumile]

Its way to bursty - When I first tried some pvp in SL at item level 170 I was like...Well once we all got 40-50k HP it will be better, but meeh...You will just do more damage as well...Its not fun to get ganked by a rogue in 5 sec's 100% stunlocked no chance even at item level 200.

- - - Updated - - -



As a feral druid I agree, its very clunky and gimmicky. Its nice in PvM, but I dont wanna rely on that either...Especially since its so easy to counter if you have pvp trinket or can bubble/iceblock or whatever.

the point is to setup a scenario where you cannot be stopped. which is why convoke is inherently infinitely worse on Feral compared to Boomy simply due to one being ranged, and magical so it goes through BoP and Intervene.

also it has slowed down dramatically at 40k+ HP. look at most of the AWC games, except for outliers where ppl messed up big time and died instantly due to various things like playing WW Monk WITHOUT a trinket against RMP and ur healer refuses to trinket / bubble the opener etc, they were all quite long games for a reason. if u track ur own stun DR, and ur against a rogue, you know he wants to swap to you once the DR is gone, play accordingly, and dont recklessly run at him in cat form when u dont have Bark skin / Trinket? its not rocket science.

- - - Updated - - -

Under geared, probably part of the reason why. Not enough Versat, definitely not the case. I am at diminishing returns with versat (north of 26%) and I am still getting one shot. The next cliche response is, it's a L2P issue. Nope. Most of the time nothing can be done due to CC immunity or a very good stealth opener. So what's the solution? Pop all your defenses the millisecond you see a Fire Mage came out of invis with Combustion up? Have everyone play Ret, WW, Frost DK and Fire Mage and screw everything else? Can add Boomkin to the list as well, but then again at least Convoke the Spirits can easily be interrupted. The overwhelming majority of classes cant top a Ret w/Bubble and Wings up. WW dmg is off-the charts retarded and its almost impossible to root or snare them. Frost DK cant be CC'd through AMS by any given dps caster and they simply do NOT die.

The dmg in Pvp is way too bursty and most of it, with few exceptions, is coming from Melee for the umteenth time. Then again, this isn't a new problem. Its been around since day 1 and happens to be part of the reason why WOW pvp's popularity is nowhere near it's peak in MOP. Its a shame really, Pvp in Wow possesses enormous potential and Blizzard is clueless about it. Always have been that way, always will be that way

Monk Damage relies on Pets, so AOE Slows / roots definitely do wonders.

And yes u should insta pop defensivesd when a mage combusts on you if u are unable to stop him with CC or Dispel the combust. you trade cooldowns for cooldowns, so yeah its a L2P issue for you most likely, theres a reason other ppl can get high rating and you can't. does that make it balanced? no. but every PVP'er loves the fast pace, we just want the 6 or so absolutely broken classes to get nerfed so the rest of us can play. (rets, Warrior, elemental, Fire mage, Holy paladin, Prot Paladin, WW, Boomy, sorry if I forgot one of you OP fuckers > ) rogues are ONLY viable because they play well with Mages, and mages are OP. how fucking sad is that? 0 hunters at the AWC, only one that even tried was SSDS, who didnt even make it past the qualifiers with Jungle cleave. barely any hunters on Ladder, not seen a frost mage yet either tbh, and I have almost 1k 2v2 games played at 2.4k as Sub/MM and about half that in 3's. think I saw 1 Arcane mage.

Saw 1 Demo lock that I can remember, and a handful of Destro locks.

Seen 1 Outlaw rogue, and 3 Assasination rogues.

Only Feral druid I have met in 2's is TJFeralkingx. who is a multi R1, and he lost to some no name 2.6k peaked retards playing Sub/MM. he was obviously the better player btw, played him loads in BFA as well in 2's.

met a few ferals at around 1800 mmr initially in 3's, not seen any since.

All I see are Shamans, Warriors, paladins, Fire mages, Boomies, Windwankers, DK's (In walking dead cleave only) and Sub Rogues ( in RMP Only ) and Affli locks (Please remove corruption slow from the game, I beg) and Priests.

[C20]

Rogues. Taking down 25K HP by the time you're out of stuns, even if you trinket one of them, they've got others lined up. Manage to get them low HP? Too fucking bad, they're already running away to hide before they repeat the same shit again. Being able to negate stealth detection abilities (e.g. spectral sight) by completely disappearing is not good in the interest of balancing the game, but I can accept it if their damage is reduced to reasonable levels.

Balance Druids. Convoke is 1 part of it, but starsurge spam for 8K each time seems like it has almost no counter. Sure, you can interrupt them, but at that point they're shifting away, rooting you, and continuing with the bullshit spam.

MM hunters taking down people in 5 seconds is incredibly strong. Generally, I don't mind them too much, but getting them geared creates this snowball effect where their damage goes almost vertically as they get each upgrade.

Fire mages, to an extent, have extremely strong shields, but I can accept that they're easier to counter than rogues and boomkins because of their need to stop moving to cast, and their damage isn't unmanageable.

Havoc DH's, to an extent, with Night Fae hunt ability, are able to almost 1-shot lower-geared players, but it is heavily countered by shields, and higher HP negates much of the danger of it.

One way to rebalance this across the board would be to make the 40% bonus to vers from the trinket combo only apply to damage reduction and NOT to damage done by vers, but then that would bring the favour back towards tankier classes and specs and may not be the way to go. Still, that would reduce the damage of those bursty classes down by a significant amount.

The burst in Wrath was crazy. Destro locks, Ret palas, both capable of 1-shotting people... but I still feel that pales in comparison to what we're seeing now.

Sick and tired of getting convoke nuked by stealthed druids in arenas.
Either convoke or stealth has to go.

Add to that their healing, meaning that if you do manage to get them low, they're still usually able to get off enough healing until they get away, at which point they're back in stealth and recovering. Dispels/Spell Steals do not prioritize any sort of spells, and more often than not, it'll end up removing something like intellect or fortitude, rather than the spell/spells which are giving them the greatest benefit - Hardly a good luck if PVP is meant to be about using your abilities effectively, but you get totally fucked by RNG.

The combo of Convoke + Stealth + Starsurge spam + Healing + Powershifting out of snares and roots is not something that a single class should have. I have had so many balance druids tell me "It's fine, play the class and you'll see it's not easy", as if they actually fucking believe that shit isn't OP as fuck. As if they believe that their bubble of 1-shot is what everyone is capable of.

Blizzard could balance this by making stealth unavailable for Balance, or giving them a 30 second debuff after leaving stealth, which reduces their damage significantly, but I feel that a strong nerf to their burst is a better way to go.

[msdos]

Using consumes and world buffs is the path of least resistance.

This would be true if we didn't ever die and just have every consume and buff 24/7, but in reality you don't and progression is still progression because you don't have the resist gear yet, not the same.

[Daymanmb]

This would be true if we didn't ever die and just have every consume and buff 24/7, but in reality you don't and progression is still progression because you don't have the resist gear yet, not the same.

Man, come on.. world buffs and consumes make the experience easier = the path of least resistance.

[Demsi]

You're all acting as if pvp is more unbalanced than it's ever been, have people really forgotten about Warlocks in MoP? or Frost mages in cataclysm? This season isn't more nor less unbalanced than previous seasons.