This loot system has to go.

[Stricks]

I always thought most of the reward from an MMO/WoW was playing with others and tackling objectives (Raid progression). The loot helps you get there, but it's not the reward.

Maybe that's too sappy, but that's how I see it.

[chase_the_mofo]

So much qq/rant because you still have 2-3 blues to replace....
So what?
You havent done all options to gear, WQ give good loot as well but yeah its RNG, game is RNG deal with it.

[dacoolist]

Whats the most sad.. people complaining that loot isnt being handed to them for just existing.

[arkanon]

So much qq/rant because you still have 2-3 blues to replace....
So what?
You havent done all options to gear, WQ give good loot as well but yeah its RNG, game is RNG deal with it.

This is kinda the crux of the whole thing. Multiple systems exist that would allow them to increase their ilvl, and they are choosing not to take advantage of those systems.

Player issue, not the game.

[Echocho]

I always thought most of the reward from an MMO/WoW was playing with others and tackling objectives (Raid progression). The loot helps you get there, but it's not the reward.

Maybe that's too sappy, but that's how I see it.

It was for a while at the very beginning. What's weird is that the loot obsession got worse the more we got, like junkies. It wasn't until they literally showered us in gear that we became indifferent.

I think that it was a mistake going cold turkey. They should've reduced the loot a little bit a few expansions in a row just like they did when they increased it. It took us 15 years of small increments to get to this after all.

All this extreme change will do is cause a just as extreme reaction from the players which will cause Blizzard to consider it a failed experiment and go back to the other extreme. Blizzard is known for only dealing in absolutes.

[LDancer]

This is kinda the crux of the whole thing. Multiple systems exist that would allow them to increase their ilvl, and they are choosing not to take advantage of those systems.

Player issue, not the game.

That’s not the crux of the issue.
I’ve run 30+ 10-14 over the course of a couple weeks... and from those (mostly timed) I’ve seen 1 drop.

I’ve done all WQs / cov storyline / clears of CN... I’m forced to start running pvp which is stupid to be forced to do to get any sort of upgrade which is rubbish to have to do.

The GV often gives either items I’m currently wearing or item for slots that are taken by my legendary.

Without any bad luck protection or bonus rolls, players are feeling (and not the lucky ones that have no issue with the loot system cos they’ve managed to get what it is they want, but those that have suspiciously stacked bad luck) whatever time they invest is an absolute waste.

[crusadernero]

I always thought most of the reward from an MMO/WoW was playing with others and tackling objectives (Raid progression). The loot helps you get there, but it's not the reward.

Maybe that's too sappy, but that's how I see it.

Sadly thats not how people play this game anymore. Its a personal adventure with personal and solo friendly solutions to most content. Theres little to no consequences of leaving mid dungeon/mid raid, being toxic, drop out of a arena team after 1 loss while telling teammate hes shit, or in general treat the game like your own playground.

Theres no reason to actually coordinate and actually function with others unless you push high m+ keys, do mythic raids or high end pvp. Most people dont do that and they never will. But getting loot is something everyone wants, and people want it the easy way - Automated features that gives loot with little to no need for human interaction.

We could easily blame the playerbase, but Blizzard has driven the game in that direction. Last couple of years its been a loot pinata with epics thrown in your face left and right. Now they are trying to tune it back, after getting the playerbase used to getting loot at every corner.

It remains to be seen if blizzard actually stand ground on this or backs down again. Most likely it will be back to loot pinata in the next xpac, if not even sooner.

[PrimiOne]

There's definitely something wrong with the loot sytem in some areas.

I've had a grand total of 2 upgrades in CN HC ( not talking about drops but upgrades)

2

My progress has been 4,6,9 and then full clear since the 4th week ( so a lot of bosses killed).

Now, I'm already hearing the song:" Dude, if you refuse to do high end raiding (mythic) but do other forms of high end content of course CN HC won't drop upgrades" but that's not the situation. I'm not a hardcore player ( oh well, I am for my super casual friends,everything is a matter of perspective) so to put things in context.

1. I haven't done a single 14 or 15. I'm on two 13s ,mostly 11-12s and still one 10. Hardly top.
2. I have been sitting in 1600 for most of the season. This very week is the first week I got to 1800. Hardly elite.
3. I have just two boes because I understand the argument that if I raid the AH of course CN HC won't be an upgrade. No drops on those slots so it's not that I bought an item and then the drop was not an upgrade.Hardly AH raid.


I'm sitting in 216 and one of the 2 Nathria upgrades was replaced so right now I'm just wearing 1 item from CN HC.

And the idea that flies around my head is that there's currently a BoE in the AH for 90k in the slot that I have the CN item with better itemization. Given that I was doing 120k+ gold/hour in the first weeks by herbing/mining I can't stop thinking that AAAALLLL the raiding could have been replaced with 45 min more of farming and I would have exactly the same gear ( even better,the BoE have better stats for me).

If you let it sink for a moment (45 minutes of herbing versus all the hours I put in progressing throug Nathria) ....well....yeah...There's definitely something wrong with the loot sytem in some areas.

[ketsui]

There's definitely something wrong with the loot sytem in some areas.

I've had a grand total of 2 upgrades in CN HC ( not talking about drops but upgrades)

2

My progress has been 4,6,9 and then full clear since the 4th week ( so a lot of bosses killed).

Now, I'm already hearing the song:" Dude, if you refuse to do high end raiding (mythic) but do other forms of high end content of course CN HC won't drop upgrades" but that's not the situation. I'm not a hardcore player ( oh well, I am for my super casual friends,everything is a matter of perspective) so to put things in context.

1. I haven't done a single 14 or 15. I'm on two 13s ,mostly 11-12s and still one 10. Hardly top.
2. I have been sitting in 1600 for most of the season. This very week is the first week I got to 1800. Hardly elite.
3. I have just two boes because I understand the argument that if I raid the AH of course CN HC won't be an upgrade. No drops on those slots so it's not that I bought an item and then the drop was not an upgrade.Hardly AH raid.


I'm sitting in 216 and one of the 2 Nathria upgrades was replaced so right now I'm just wearing 1 item from CN HC.

And the idea that flies around my head is that there's currently a BoE in the AH for 90k in the slot that I have the CN item with better itemization. Given that I was doing 120k+ gold/hour in the first weeks by herbing/mining I can't stop thinking that AAAALLLL the raiding could have been replaced with 45 min more of farming and I would have exactly the same gear ( even better,the BoE have better stats for me).

If you let it sink for a moment (45 minutes of herbing versus all the hours I put in progressing throug Nathria) ....well....yeah...There's definitely something wrong with the loot sytem in some areas.

Man I’m so glad I finally kicked wow before this expansion. I’m reading these stories and it truly makes me sad how blizzard has fallen. I guess when all the founders left and “you think you do but you don’t” guy is in charge this crap is what is pumped out. Well I quit 3 weeks before shadowlands and I’m reading these forums to validate me missing the first expansion since launch of vanilla

[Kolvarg]

This is kinda the crux of the whole thing. Multiple systems exist that would allow them to increase their ilvl, and they are choosing not to take advantage of those systems.

Well, that's a bit of a fallacy. Just because you can achieve a given goal with the systems, does not necessarily mean the systems themselves are good.

Ultimately it's not just about getting the loot, but how satisfying and rewarding the whole process feels.

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I always thought most of the reward from an MMO/WoW was playing with others and tackling objectives (Raid progression). The loot helps you get there, but it's not the reward.

Considering how much loot drama always existed ever since Vanilla, I don't think that was ever the case for many people. WoW has always been a skinner box. From the loot drops, to the sound and visual effect when you level up, it's all designed to give you that dopamine hit so you keep coming. It just was intensified over the years - and that was due to design choices, not the playerbase changing.

[chiddie]

Generally speaking, I believe the current M+ droprates are fine because you can just spam them infinitely without any loot lockout unlike the weekly raid lockout or the rated PVP Conquest cap. And I do agree that the droprates from of raids should be increased, or atleast bring back master loot to remedy it.

As to address your first point: the difference being that with the current system I can target a piece of loot by farming a certain keystone at a certain level without worrying that antother layer of RNG will screw me over.

Yes, but this only if you assume that majority of people have the will and most of all the time to spam M+ indefinitely. Unfortunately apart from maybe ppl who are already around the +15 bracket, it’s not like that.

For people that don’t spam (hello, here I am) this new M+ loot system is far worse than BfA (cannot speak for Legion, didn’t do M+ at that time).

I get nothing from my 5-6 weekly M+s most of the time and all that remains is one piece from the vault (if I’m lucky enough). In BfA I got at least 3 pieces per week doing even less M+.

[nocturnus]

ilvl 212 now and I'm a casual player with ~4 hours play time a week. I've only done 3 normal raid bosses to get the signet legendary and never touched pvp or any other raid bosses.

OP, you're crying about a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to complain about something, complain about the massive dev resources that went into Torghast, boring content barely anyone touches after having upgraded one or two items to 235. Heck, you could even complain about how boring it is to gather anima powers; I never manage to get more than the 1000 needed for the weekly rep.

[ellieg]

That’s not the crux of the issue.
I’ve run 30+ 10-14 over the course of a couple weeks... and from those (mostly timed) I’ve seen 1 drop.

I’ve done all WQs / cov storyline / clears of CN... I’m forced to start running pvp which is stupid to be forced to do to get any sort of upgrade which is rubbish to have to do.

The GV often gives either items I’m currently wearing or item for slots that are taken by my legendary.

Without any bad luck protection or bonus rolls, players are feeling (and not the lucky ones that have no issue with the loot system cos they’ve managed to get what it is they want, but those that have suspiciously stacked bad luck) whatever time they invest is an absolute waste.

30 runs and 1 drop?

If none were timed u had 0.9% chance of that happening.
If half were timed u had a 0.02% chance.
If all were timed, u had a 0.000442% chance.

I think you're exaggerating the amount of runs or lying abt the loot you got.

Link your raiderio so we can see the runs

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There's definitely something wrong with the loot sytem in some areas.

I've had a grand total of 2 upgrades in CN HC ( not talking about drops but upgrades)

2

My progress has been 4,6,9 and then full clear since the 4th week ( so a lot of bosses killed).

Now, I'm already hearing the song:" Dude, if you refuse to do high end raiding (mythic) but do other forms of high end content of course CN HC won't drop upgrades" but that's not the situation. I'm not a hardcore player ( oh well, I am for my super casual friends,everything is a matter of perspective) so to put things in context.

1. I haven't done a single 14 or 15. I'm on two 13s ,mostly 11-12s and still one 10. Hardly top.
2. I have been sitting in 1600 for most of the season. This very week is the first week I got to 1800. Hardly elite.
3. I have just two boes because I understand the argument that if I raid the AH of course CN HC won't be an upgrade. No drops on those slots so it's not that I bought an item and then the drop was not an upgrade.Hardly AH raid.


I'm sitting in 216 and one of the 2 Nathria upgrades was replaced so right now I'm just wearing 1 item from CN HC.

And the idea that flies around my head is that there's currently a BoE in the AH for 90k in the slot that I have the CN item with better itemization. Given that I was doing 120k+ gold/hour in the first weeks by herbing/mining I can't stop thinking that AAAALLLL the raiding could have been replaced with 45 min more of farming and I would have exactly the same gear ( even better,the BoE have better stats for me).

If you let it sink for a moment (45 minutes of herbing versus all the hours I put in progressing throug Nathria) ....well....yeah...There's definitely something wrong with the loot sytem in some areas.

So you were 1600 rating? Thats abt 4-5 conquest pieces atm of 213 ilvl. Thats why you only got 2 upgrades from heroic cn. At 1800 now those are all 220 ilvl. GV and mythic raids will be your main upgrade source.

You're 216 ilvl? You're like top 5% of the playerbase. Not sure what your complaint is.
Do you think you shld be 226-230 by now?

[nocturnus]

Do you think you shld be 226-230 by now?

That's what's wrong with these people. They think they should be ilvl capped a few weeks after release.

They should just make all droppable gear the same base ilvl, regardless of the content and let the equipped gear, level-up with you. The harder the content you do, the more XP your items receive.

[Exquis]

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You're 216 ilvl? You're like top 5% of the playerbase. Not sure what your complaint is.
Do you think you shld be 226-230 by now?

Just hopping in for a sec - i wouldnt say anyone expects to be 230. But me, and a lot of others, have been stuck at around 210-216 ish for weeks now because you reach a point where your only upgrade is either to PvP, get lucky on mythic raid drops or wait for the weekly cache. Doesn't create a whole lot of incentive to play most aspects of the game.

[PrimiOne]

So you were 1600 rating? Thats abt 4-5 conquest pieces atm of 213 ilvl. Thats why you only got 2 upgrades from heroic cn. At 1800 now those are all 220 ilvl. GV and mythic raids will be your main upgrade source.

You're 216 ilvl? You're like top 5% of the playerbase. Not sure what your complaint is.
Do you think you shld be 226-230 by now?

I should be 245 or more ,that's my complain

No ,really ,being serious the "complain" at the lack of a better word is that raiding is right now incredibly unrewarding below mythic.

If you do what is supposed to be the other equivalent content ( 1600-1800 pvp and 7-10 M+) it can totally happen that ,loot wise, almost none of the pieces comes from raiding.

Now, you are talking about the future. Of course from now on there's no upgrades in CN HC ( Sire Trinket and that's almost all) once I upgrade the conquest gear to 220 and I was talking about the past.....

You don't really see a problem in putting a lot of hours into raiding and getting nothing from it? Because my memory is limited but I would say that I have spent almost 3x the time in Nathria than in M+ and PVP (togeher) and in the end...the rewards came from M+ and PVP.

That's what's wrong with these people. They think they should be ilvl capped a few weeks after release.

Well It's better if you understand what "these people" say. Healthier even.

The problem is not a "I should be 268!!!"... the problem as stated before is:medium (not top) M+,raiding and PVP rewards are not balanced at all.



So let's see if I can explain it better. I do the content that I do. The content that I do drops a 213-2020 range. Thats CN heroic thats M+ around 10 ( level up level down) and that's 1600-1800 pvp.

I don't expect to get a higher ilvl because the content that I do drops that ilvl BUT ( here's the main concept) for most people that do what I do most of their gear comes from M+ and PVP and therefore is valid to raise the question...why even bother in raiding?

[huth]

And that's the problem with labels. Casual can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, and imo, the only consistent difference is - they are not hardcore. Some casuals only do LFR. Some don't raid at all. Some pvp, some don't. Not having a go at you at all, or anyone for that matter, just pointing out the flaw in the whole casual vs hardcore issue.

A lot of that comes from the terms meaning different things in different circumstances, though. The issues then come from people using the definition for the wrong situation. Although i'd disagree with "casual = not hardcore". One is about commitment, the other is about engagement. One could play on a very loose schedule because their occupation doesn't allow for anything else, but still be very serious about it when they do.

LFR hero = bad is pretty false though.
I know earlier hc / mythic raiders that don't have to time to do mythic progressive raiding today because of family situations etc. They are way better players than most if you guys. But they just have the time to play casually nowadays though.

This kind of players are probably a small minority, but they exist. So don't put the whole LFR crowd into the same bag.

"That LFR hero". I wasn't talking about them in general, but about the specific example given.

[ellieg]

I should be 245 or more ,that's my complain

No ,really ,being serious the "complain" at the lack of a better word is that raiding is right now incredibly unrewarding below mythic.

If you do what is supposed to be the other equivalent content ( 1600-1800 pvp and 7-10 M+) it can totally happen that ,loot wise, almost none of the pieces comes from raiding.

Now, you are talking about the future. Of course from now on there's no upgrades in CN HC ( Sire Trinket and that's almost all) once I upgrade the conquest gear to 220 and I was talking about the past.....

You don't really see a problem in putting a lot of hours into raiding and getting nothing from it? Because my memory is limited but I would say that I have spent almost 3x the time in Nathria than in M+ and PVP (togeher) and in the end...the rewards came from M+ and PVP.



Well It's better if you understand what "these people" say. Healthier even.

The problem is not a "I should be 268!!!"... the problem as stated before is:medium (not top) M+,raiding and PVP rewards are not balanced at all.



So let's see if I can explain it better. I do the content that I do. The content that I do drops a 213-2020 range. Thats CN heroic thats M+ around 10 ( level up level down) and that's 1600-1800 pvp.

I don't expect to get a higher ilvl because the content that I do drops that ilvl BUT ( here's the main concept) for most people that do what I do most of their gear comes from M+ and PVP and therefore is valid to raise the question...why even bother in raiding?

They wanted separate paths to be worthwhile. M+ around the 10 range is equivalent to heroic raids. Your GV will reward better loot and thats the 1 piece a week rate they seem to want.

With drop rates, raiding will get you 1 piece a week then 1 from vault. You've just progressed thru heroic and are deciding to stop progressing. Which is fine but the loot will slow down now too. On top of that you're pvping and you've progressed far enough to invalidate other loot systems. 1800 isn't super high but its top 15% or so. You gotta do top % of pve to outgear that which happens to be mythic raids.

There's no titanforging anymore. Once u get your 226/233 piece you're done. If you got 1 more piece a week, you'd probably honestly be done gearing by now or within a week or 2. There's gotta be something to chase or else you won't be "putting the hours in" anymore. If you dont think heroic raid is worth it, and u won't do mythic, id just drop raiding for this season if you only care abt loot

- - - Updated - - -

Just hopping in for a sec - i wouldnt say anyone expects to be 230. But me, and a lot of others, have been stuck at around 210-216 ish for weeks now because you reach a point where your only upgrade is either to PvP, get lucky on mythic raid drops or wait for the weekly cache. Doesn't create a whole lot of incentive to play most aspects of the game.

I'm in that ilvl range now too.

What is gear good for? Imo it's for progressing into harder content. At this ilvl its enough to do mythic raid progression. If clearing half the bosses, thats abt 1 piece every other week. Then doing m+ to get an upgrade almost every week depending on if rng fucks u. Then if pvp rating is high enough, that's 1 piece every other week with conquest. So 1-2 pieces a week. We are 2 months into a 6 month season and if I think abt it that way, our ilvl progression has slowed but its on pace.

The incentive for me is filling out the GV slots for rng protection. Thatll take a raid clear, and 10 m+. So about 8-10 hours a week on top of the other chores. Can grind pvp rating or other alts. But can't expect to grind power endlessly on your main

[PrimiOne]

They wanted separate paths to be worthwhile. M+ around the 10 range is equivalent to heroic raids. Your GV will reward better loot and thats the 1 piece a week rate they seem to want.

With drop rates, raiding will get you 1 piece a week then 1 from vault. You've just progressed thru heroic and are deciding to stop progressing. Which is fine but the loot will slow down now too. On top of that you're pvping and you've progressed far enough to invalidate other loot systems. 1800 isn't super high but its top 15% or so. You gotta do top % of pve to outgear that which happens to be mythic raids.

There's no titanforging anymore. Once u get your 226/233 piece you're done. If you got 1 more piece a week, you'd probably honestly be done gearing by now or within a week or 2. There's gotta be something to chase or else you won't be "putting the hours in" anymore. If you dont think heroic raid is worth it, and u won't do mythic, id just drop raiding for this season if you only care abt loot

Again you are talking about...the future. About what I should do to progress and I'm totally done for this tier.I would still clearing Nathria with no upgrades (because it's fun) doing my m+ (less fun but there's upgrades) and my pvp. I don't really care about nathria anymore as in "progress" or "upgrades" , just slaying dragon with my friends but I just think that for the next tier Blizzard should really consider if the "separated paths" than you mention have an adequate balance of rewards and the most courious thing is that you still haven't expressed your opinion about the main issue. Do you think those rewards on "equivalent" content are balanced? Do you think it should be balanced in the first place?

Because i'm not saying "OUTRAGEOUS!!!....15 slots AND I DON'T HAVE 5 FROM PVP,5 FROM M+ and 5 FROM RAIDS!!!! This is shit!!!" ...not expecting that but well...at least not a my just 1 single item from CN situation.

[Catscratch]

I hope people are thinking straight about this. They need to make you play longer = More money. Nothing else matters.