View Poll Results: Would you support Sylvanas Windrunner if you still had the choice?

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  • Yes, I would support Sylvanas

    132 37.08%
  • No, I would not support Sylvanas

    198 55.62%
  • Other / Not sure / It's complicated

    26 7.30%
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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But, again, I don't care what's LIKELY, I care about what actually IS.
    So in other words, you want absolute certainty. You're just going in circles here.

    Judgments are always made on likely, not on is. Precisely because absolute certainty is impossible.

    And whatever Sylvanas is doing, it's quite clear she's not going to save any world our characters care about. So whether she actually saves anything is already irrelevant.
    Last edited by huth; 2021-01-31 at 01:41 AM.

  2. #242
    Discussions like this happen when the story isn't being written. People come up with fanon to make up for the fact that the game's story is lacking. If Blizzard's writers actually did their job and gave Sylvanas proper motivation, people would decide for themselves whether or not they support her without making hundreds of 10 page+ threads.

    Sylvanas is just a blank slate that people project their own fanon Sylvanases onto.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    Discussions like this happen when the story isn't being written. People come up with fanon to make up for the fact that the game's story is lacking. If Blizzard's writers actually did their job and gave Sylvanas proper motivation, people would decide for themselves whether or not they support her without making hundreds of 10 page+ threads.

    Sylvanas is just a blank slate that people project their own fanon Sylvanases onto.
    Must be a nice place in that alternate reality you live in. Over here, people would talk about that just as much as Sylvanas.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    So in other words, you want absolute certainty. You're just going in circles here.

    Judgments are always made on likely, not on is. Precisely because absolute certainty is impossible.

    And whatever Sylvanas is doing, it's quite clear she's not going to save any world our characters care about. So whether she actually saves anything is already irrelevant.
    I'm not looking for absolute certainty, I'm looking for REASONABLE amounts of information. Absolute certainty is a red herring because we can never be absolutely certain about anything, but that doesn't mean there aren't degrees of information. Right now we know jack shit about what actually happened to Sylvanas and made her decide to do all these things. We know she made "some kind of deal" with the Jailer; we know they want to "break the system"; and that's about it. Those could mean ANYTHING.

    I'd like to know more than that. That doesn't mean I'll wait until I am absolutely 100% finally and ultimately certain about EVERYTHING EVER (which no one can be about anything) but there's a lot of room between now and 100%, and I'd like to be close to 100% than I am now.

    To pretend the options are either "you want to know everything, which you never will" and "let's just take what we have RIGHT NOW and judge based on that" is disingenuous.

  5. #245
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    conversely, just because you saved the world doesn't mean you're a noble hero. But you still saved the world, and if you did otherwise evil things because that was the only way to do it, it can still be justifiable.
    That worked for Illidank, after all. Why wouldn't it work again for Sylv?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    That worked for Illidank, after all. Why wouldn't it work again for Sylv?
    Because Illidan havent gone as far as she did? Cause even at his worst he was just a Mad Maxian warlord ruling over a post-nucle... i mean post-fel Wasteland and dominating some cannibalistic tribes into his micro-empire. His worst acts were trying to fuck with Shattrath and draining Zangarmash.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I'm not looking for absolute certainty, I'm looking for REASONABLE amounts of information.
    You outright refuse to consider how probable outcomes are. You deal exclusively in certainties. Stop lying to yourself.

    What you want isn't reasonable, and what you're looking at is not even close to the entirety of the information available. No, "breaking the system" could not mean "anything". There's a lot of outcomes we can dismiss based on what we know about Sylvanas and the Jailer. Most of the remaining ones aren't favourable to us.
    It most definitely doesn't earn them any points that they're not making any attempts to tell us why their actions would be necessary, either.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You outright refuse to consider how probable outcomes are. You deal exclusively in certainties. Stop lying to yourself.
    That's a mischaracterization. What I'm refusing is the likelihood of UNKNOWN outcomes.

    Think of it like a murder trial. I don't convict someone because them being a murderer is "likely" because of their character or past actions; I do it because evidence was presented to convince me they are a murderer. But that DOESN'T mean I need ABSOLUTE certainty to be sure they're a murderer - I just need to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. There's a big spread between "this is a bad person so it's likely they're a murderer, so I'll assume they are" and "I'm absolutely certain they are/are not a murderer", they are not the only two positions.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's a mischaracterization. What I'm refusing is the likelihood of UNKNOWN outcomes.

    Think of it like a murder trial. I don't convict someone because them being a murderer is "likely" because of their character or past actions; I do it because evidence was presented to convince me they are a murderer. But that DOESN'T mean I need ABSOLUTE certainty to be sure they're a murderer - I just need to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. There's a big spread between "this is a bad person so it's likely they're a murderer, so I'll assume they are" and "I'm absolutely certain they are/are not a murderer", they are not the only two positions.
    So IF Sylvanas actions lead to a better world without war, death etc ... Will you be like : ok, so it is fine she did all those massacre ?

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    Well there are two big reasons people still follow her

    Never going to change Human nature...
    She died to me the day she got that pos armor for her stomach >: (

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because Illidan havent gone as far as she did? Cause even at his worst he was just a Mad Maxian warlord ruling over a post-nucle... i mean post-fel Wasteland and dominating some cannibalistic tribes into his micro-empire. His worst acts were trying to fuck with Shattrath and draining Zangarmash.
    He sacrificed lots of Draenei (and even some fellow nelfs lol) in order to fuel fel engines and himself, as seen in the novel and in Legion. With the added feature that, unlike the nelfs from Burndrassil, those Draenei souls didn't even go to the Maw, but rather were destroyed for all eternity. Why should nelf souls be any more important than Draenei ones? Dooming the former is OMG KILL HER NAO /wrists but outright destroying the latter just makes you an antihero of sorts?

    Yeah, I see the double standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  12. #252
    I would follow Sylvanas into hell if she asked me to. Best character. I hope she gets the Kerrigan treatment and is vindicated from all her wrongdoings. Dark lady watch over us all.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    I would follow Sylvanas into hell if she asked me to. Best character. I hope she gets the Kerrigan treatment and is vindicated from all her wrongdoings. Dark lady watch over us all.
    Erevien, you already got banned in pretty much every WoW related site, but you just cant stop digging your own grave arent you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    He sacrificed lots of Draenei (and even some fellow nelfs lol) in order to fuel fel engines and himself, as seen in the novel and in Legion. With the added feature that, unlike the nelfs from Burndrassil, those Draenei souls didn't even go to the Maw, but rather were destroyed for all eternity. Why should nelf souls be any more important than Draenei ones? Dooming the former is OMG KILL HER NAO /wrists but outright destroying the latter just makes you an antihero of sorts?

    Yeah, I see the double standard.
    Werent those draenei from Auchindon? I mean the already dead ones. And between suffering forever and being obliterated i would pick obliteration.

    Plus he is a villain, just not on a scale Sylvanas is. Because he never went to the point of “fucking up entire universe and turning Death upside down”.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Erevien, you already got banned in pretty much every WoW related site, but you just cant stop digging your own grave arent you?
    Ok I am really very curious about one thing regarding this forum. What is Sylvannas Windrunner to everyone here? Is it some tragic misunderstood hero or is it that they like her because she spites the Alliance, Anduin and generally anything goody two shoes?

  15. #255
    As an horde DK and Forsaken? Yes. As any other option, obviously not.

    Anti-Sylvannas people are so self centered, they think supporting Sylvannas ingame means that the player strictly agrees with her. The community might forget sometimes, but after the MMO comes the RPG part.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Ok I am really very curious about one thing regarding this forum. What is Sylvannas Windrunner to everyone here? Is it some tragic misunderstood hero or is it that they like her because she spites the Alliance, Anduin and generally anything goody two shoes?
    Its the second one. Only reason she is liked is because she allows them to be as much of an assholes as they want and then get away scot free (same as she does) while spiting Alliance and being unrepentant jerks. Problem is - they dont seem to consider that Alliance players also pay the subscription and want to play the game and have fun instead of being endlessly used as punching bags and “schoolyard nerds” for horde players to vent their frustration on.

    So if she wasnt so... Utterly antagonistic towards Alliance OR wasnt so untouchable due to plot armor she would have had far less following. Since some people love nothing more then to make others miserable and then get away with it due to plot contrivances.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    That's a mischaracterization. What I'm refusing is the likelihood of UNKNOWN outcomes.

    Think of it like a murder trial. I don't convict someone because them being a murderer is "likely" because of their character or past actions; I do it because evidence was presented to convince me they are a murderer.
    So you don't convict them because it is likely because of their character or past actions, but because it is likely due to other evidence. You still convict them because it is likely they are the murderer. And past actions can be evidence, especially when they are directly related to the case.

    Besides, this is only for trials after the fact. Right now, we have to judge whether we want to prevent Sylvanas from commiting an action in the first place. You don't get the benefit of hindsight on that, and when we have the evidence you keep asking for it may be to late to do anything about it.

  18. #258
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    At this point, no. If she wanted to stand against death and break the cycle, I would stand with her all the way. But the trouble is that she told NO ONE except Nathanos of her plan, and maybe even he was kept a few steps behind. The Forsaken would have done anything for her, and I'm pretty sure the Horde could have been convinced as well with her as Warchief. If she UTILIZED the Horde instead of USED it, I would have been with her. But not anymore. She's got too many hidden agendas and secrets to be trusted.

  19. #259
    Depends on what character I'm playing. But generally I'd say no. Even my forsaken characters, I'm more leaning towards them feeling betrayed after her "you're all nothing" scene. Though I can imagine forsaken characters being still very devoted to Sylvanas rp wise. I think we haven't been shown enough about her plans or goals to be convinced to follow her apart from blind devotion.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    So IF Sylvanas actions lead to a better world without war, death etc ... Will you be like : ok, so it is fine she did all those massacre ?
    Of course I wouldn't be FINE with the acts she perpetrated in the sense of not thinking them evil; they are and always will be heinous. However, they may have been JUSTIFIED depending on the larger goal at stake.

    For example, murdering an innocent child is morally reprehensible, and never won't be; but it can be JUSTIFIED under certain circumstances. Not only in very obvious ones (e.g. euthanasia in the face of a terminal, painful illness) but also in more "out there" ones you might find in a fictional setting like e.g. "kill this child or the planet blows up". You're not doing a good deed, but you're doing something that's justifiable in the bigger picture.

    Is Sylvanas going to have something like that? Who knows. WoW writing is very shitty most of the time but it's hard to predict what kind of shitty - they might turn her into an outright martyr, some sort of tragic antihero who did what she thought was best even if it meant reprehensible acts; or they might turn her into a whiny little baby who could have just gotten herself together and done it differently but chose to give the universe the middle finger instead because reasons. Or something else entirely, of course. I'll wait and see.

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