Would you support Sylvanas Windrunner if you still had the choice?

[RadasNoir]

Yes

Too bad everyone is so obssessed with everyone being goodie two shoes so we can never be evil ourselves. Like its a video game who tf cares about honor, I want to blight some towns and kill alliance all day long. Why I play a always pick imperial in swtor

Or y'know having the alliance pay for what they've done to the horde throughout the years. Destroying Draenor, Destroying Lordaeron, having garithos try to cull the remanining blood elves, Theramore and the explorers league fucking over the tauren, Opening fire upon goblin vessels because why not, massacre on vulpera and telling the nightborne to go f themselves

You say you want to play an evil faction, but then jump to defend the various atrocities the Horde has committed over the years?

Do you understand what a "hypocrite" is?

[Aucald]

Let's keep real-world politics out of the discussion and focus on the fictional character of Sylvanas herself.

[Rozz]

On topic, yes.
The second they could let us RP as the actual bad guy, I'm in. I would've preferred Arthas back in WotLK, but running around as a hellspawn would be kinda cool. You could consider this from a game of ethics, but I'm sure most people would if it were fun. There is something about being a part of a gothic horror army that appeals to me.

[Aucald]

I don't think there's anything wrong with roleplaying the bad guy or bad faction in a video game context - I've got a Forsaken Warlock myself, and my soft-RP for him is that he believes he's a literal demon and fully embraces the worst impulses of undeath (I think his time in the grave might've damaged his mind more than a little). Nothing wrong with that insofar as video games go. But I'd also say that requires you to both admit and embrace the evil essence you're roleplaying, though; without any kind of defense for your or your faction's behavior from a narrative standpoint. My Forsaken Warlock fully supported Sylvanas' goals and still does, if it were an option he'd probably join in with the Jailer and Mawsworn as well for the sheer joy of unmaking the world. I read the "you" in the thread OP as me personally, though; so I answer for myself and not any of my in-game characters.

[Soon-TM]

I would have sided with Sylv if I had wanted to play the bad guys. But when I started to play, I went Horde not because they were the bad guys - because they certainly weren't, even if there were questionable elements like the Forsaken.

But Blizzard changed the Horde from the typical Chaotic Good organisation from early WoW to Stupid Evil™ twice in a row already, and the last time they doubled down on it by eviscerating the Forsaken as a whole. If there's something you definitely shouldn't do as a DM is to change players' alignments on a whim, in principle because you destroy the RP part of the game, no matter how many fancy HD cinematics you add.

[Aucald]

I would have sided with Sylv if I had wanted to play the bad guys. But when I started to play, I went Horde not because they were the bad guys - because they certainly weren't, even if there were questionable elements like the Forsaken.

But Blizzard changed the Horde from the typical Chaotic Good organisation from early WoW to Stupid Evil™ twice in a row already, and the last time they doubled down on it by eviscerating the Forsaken as a whole. If there's something you definitely shouldn't do as a DM is to change players' alignments on a whim, in principle because you destroy the RP part of the game, no matter how many fancy HD cinematics you add.

I don't really see it that way, myself - I kind of approach the Horde the same way I do living in a country where I don't personally agree with the leadership, as it were; the Horde's Warchief moving from Chaotic Good to Chaotic Evil (e.g. Thrall to Garrosh) doesn't change *my* alignment in the slightest - I just sort of work within the confines of the narrative while keeping as true to my character as I wish to. From the standpoint of a Horde character, I consider the Horde "my people" and my home, but if said character is good-aligned and the leader is obviously evil, I will oppose them at every turn. Which is what all my Horde characters save my Warlock did with Sylvanas when she took over - they did what they had to do to survive her regime, but always with an eye toward to stopping her or limiting her excesses. The Warlock of course went the Loyalist route, both so I (the player) could experience the content, but also because that was in keeping with his alignment pretty much. All my other Horde characters were rebels.

[bowlink]

No Sylvanas can get disenchanted for all i care.

[Soon-TM]

No Sylvanas can get disenchanted for all i care.

Where is that Guldan guy when you really need him

[Tente]

Yes, in a heart beat !

[schwank05]

Yes

Too bad everyone is so obssessed with everyone being goodie two shoes so we can never be evil ourselves. Like its a video game who tf cares about honor, I want to blight some towns and kill alliance all day long. Why I play a always pick imperial in swtor

Or y'know having the alliance pay for what they've done to the horde throughout the years. Destroying Draenor, Destroying Lordaeron, having garithos try to cull the remanining blood elves, Theramore and the explorers league fucking over the tauren, Opening fire upon goblin vessels because why not, massacre on vulpera and telling the nightborne to go f themselves

OMFG finally someone else makes sense, I didn't join the Horde to be a good guy I joined the Horde to be an evil asshole that spreads the plague and kills innocent people for bloodlust. Now we have a bunch of pho alliance leaders in charge... No thanks. I was one of the few that was excited to see the Forsaken catapults roll up with the plague at the Wrathgate still one of my favorite little monologues "Did you think we had forgotten". I am all for that Horde not the Baine, pussy cow Horde.

[VladlTutushkin]

OMFG finally someone else makes sense, I didn't join the Horde to be a good guy I joined the Horde to be an evil asshole that spreads the plague and kills innocent people for bloodlust. Now we have a bunch of pho alliance leaders in charge... No thanks. I was one of the few that was excited to see the Forsaken catapults roll up with the plague at the Wrathgate still one of my favorite little monologues "Did you think we had forgotten". I am all for that Horde not the Baine, pussy cow Horde.

You must have entirely missed the memo of Warcraft 3 and horde aside from Garrosh and Sylvanas.

Being bloodthirsty monster was something they MOVED AWAY from. That was the main difference between Warcraft and other fantasy franchises - in WoW “monster” races were not actually evil.

Also, again, you dont get to do whatever you want and then get away with it because there are other players who are not interested in being a victim fodder for you.

[schwank05]

You must have entirely missed the memo of Warcraft 3 and horde aside from Garrosh and Sylvanas.

Being bloodthirsty monster was something they MOVED AWAY from. That was the main difference between Warcraft and other fantasy franchises - in WoW “monster” races were not actually evil.

Also, again, you dont get to do whatever you want and then get away with it because there are other players who are not interested in being a victim fodder for you.

That is why I want to play the Evil monster faction, not the Alliance that are all basic bitch humans or humany. I always played as an evil Forsaken that was still a little bit questionable on my motives and supported the war against the living and still will to this day.

[VladlTutushkin]

That is why I want to play the Evil monster faction, not the Alliance that are all basic bitch humans or humany. I always played as an evil Forsaken that was still a little bit questionable on my motives and supported the war against the living and still will to this day.

Well, no luck for you then. We had no choice about forgiveness and you get no choice about being good.

[Sagenod]

Yes

Too bad everyone is so obssessed with everyone being goodie two shoes so we can never be evil ourselves. Like its a video game who tf cares about honor, I want to blight some towns and kill alliance all day long. Why I play a always pick imperial in swtor

Or y'know having the alliance pay for what they've done to the horde throughout the years. Destroying Draenor, Destroying Lordaeron, having garithos try to cull the remanining blood elves, Theramore and the explorers league fucking over the tauren, Opening fire upon goblin vessels because why not, massacre on vulpera and telling the nightborne to go f themselves

Lol this is funny.

- The Alliance didn't destroy Draenor, the Horde did
- They didn't destroy Lordaeron, the Scourge did
- Garithos was not acting under Alliance orders
- The rulers of the Nightborne were repeating the same mistake their ancestors did that screwed the entire planet, the Night Elves understandably did not want to have anything to do with them.

As for the others, why is the Alliance practicing conventional warfare against the Horde insulting to you, but you want to have the opportunity to blight small towns and kill Alliance all day in game? Fanboy detected.

[LordVargK]

This isn't an accurate portrayal, though. Sylvanas didn't specifically set out to murder children - she obliterated a settlement, with all the casualties of war that entailed. That's what happens in war. You think the Alliance waited for all the civilians to get out when it attacked Horde cities? It's only a difference in scale, not in action.

Whereas the orc concentration camps were SPECIFICALLY designed to break the spirit of an entire species, including all its members from birth to death, AFTER the war was over and won. Talk about committing genocide.

You do know that the alternative to the orc camps would have been death, do you? Every one of them was an invader. No civilians. None of them could be send back through the portal. They simply had nowhere to live on Azeroth (at least no place the Azerothians knew of). This was not a traditional war. It was an alien invasion.

And stop the bullshit about Sylvanas. We know that she did not want to win a war. We know that her goal was to simply kill as many as possible to fuel the jailers forces. So she specifically targeted civilians. Because every soul counts the same. This is not a matter of scale. This is a matter of intention. And the Alliance NEVER had the intention to wipe out as many as possible, as shown by the orc camps. If the Alliance would have acted like Sylvanas (and Garrosh) did, then there would not be a single Orc on Azeroth.

[Candy Cough]

You say you want to play an evil faction, but then jump to defend the various atrocities the Horde has committed over the years?

Do you understand what a "hypocrite" is?

Evil is subjective

A villain needs motivations beyond «I want to rule because I can» alliance attrocities gives them a motivation

[Daronokk]

She came out and said you are all nothing, fuck you! You would have to be really dumb to back her after that.

Aside from Forsaken nobody should've backed her since Vanilla. She was always evil.

[Candy Cough]

Lol this is funny.

- The Alliance didn't destroy Draenor, the Horde did
- They didn't destroy Lordaeron, the Scourge did
- Garithos was not acting under Alliance orders
- The rulers of the Nightborne were repeating the same mistake their ancestors did that screwed the entire planet, the Night Elves understandably did not want to have anything to do with them.

As for the others, why is the Alliance practicing conventional warfare against the Horde insulting to you, but you want to have the opportunity to blight small towns and kill Alliance all day in game? Fanboy detected.

The Draenei brought the legion to draenor

Ill give an Edge to Arthas, but people better stop pining Garrosh on the horde

Garithos was the leader in Lordaeron and a part of the alliance of Lordaeron which included Stormwind, Gnomeregan and Khazmodan. They were just renamed later. Hence why the PvP icon is still the Lordaeron shield and why skybreakers have Lordaeron crests on them

Yes and we did not support them. We supported the rebellion, Thalyssra, not elisandre

I want to blight them because they never pay for their crimes. Greymane attenmpted to kill Sylvanas and all he got was a slap on the wrist

Sylvanas was the only one who wouldnt take bullshit and thats why I would remain by her side if I was given the chance. But no we have to side with can do no wrong Baine thatd rather deliever the horde to the alliance on a silver platter

[Minikin]

Oh this is new an exciting content. Never before has this been discussed. Man all this info is coming to light.

I wonder if Sylvanas supporters realize that if they still supported her they might just become one of those daily quests where I have to collect pieces of their soul so venari can help me blaze through Torghast.

[Biomega]

You do know that the alternative to the orc camps would have been death, do you? Every one of them was an invader. No civilians. None of them could be send back through the portal. They simply had nowhere to live on Azeroth (at least no place the Azerothians knew of). This was not a traditional war. It was an alien invasion.

Portraying this as a situation of either extermination or concentration camps is exactly what makes this so atrocious. There WERE more alternatives. Were they easy or convenient? Of course not. Exiling them to somewhere on Azeroth, trying to integrate them into the world, etc. would have been very difficult; but those WERE alternatives. The victors simply didn't consider them, because it was so much easier for them not to.

And stop the bullshit about Sylvanas. We know that she did not want to win a war. We know that her goal was to simply kill as many as possible to fuel the jailers forces.

While there's no doubt about that, we still don't know the ACTUAL endgame. She had some kind of motivation, a goal for which she accepted a very high price. It wasn't just her being sadistic or psychotic - there was an intention behind everything that we are not yet privy to. Maybe it'll turn out it was a very bad reason. Maybe not. For now, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, because she's neither an idiot nor a maniac.