Would you support Sylvanas Windrunner if you still had the choice?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

arent black dragons completly insane and under the corruption of old gods?

either way the thing is also a gameplay necessity in those cases,even if i dont agree with killing whatever creature,its a game...i have to do it,sylvanas doesnt have to do it,she and her actions are in the hands of the writers

Black dragons are ya but we kill red green blue and neather as well

[Biomega]

antonidas tried to find a cure for the fel withdrawal and failed it was something the orcs had to get over them selfs and it took years for them to do it.

All your doing is pointing out your preferred ways of killing the orcs (exile) as rehabilitating them wasn’t possible as laid out by the meta narrative.

You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by rehabilitation. It obviously works because IT HAPPENED. I'm not talking about an instant cure, I'm talking about basically what the orcs went through in what happened, EXCEPT without the whole concentration camp thing. They could have made that process a lot more directed towards integration rather than simply containment. It would have been more difficult and required more effort and sacrifice, but it could have been done (dare I say) humanely instead of locking them up like animals and making them fight to the death for entertainment. To go around pretending this WASN'T AN OPTION is incredibly callous and self-serving.

[deenman]

Black dragons are ya but we kill red green blue and neather as well

Dont know the details of every reason behind all those,i know the horde used red dragons,blue were working with malygos to destroy magic users,not sure what happened with green,and nether were i think illidans? in all those cases killing them seems pretty justified,mostly self defence,and like i said,the game has to have things for us to kill,those dragons were used to attack us,those elves arent in the same boat,you cant even make the argument of war from horde perspective because it was the horde attacking them in the first place

[Rustedsaint]

No, I don’t simp over a corpse.
Your playing the wrong type of game if you wanna be the villain, at the end of the day both the horde/alliance are out to do what’s best for their civilians.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You seem to be misunderstanding what I mean by rehabilitation. It obviously works because IT HAPPENED. I'm not talking about an instant cure, I'm talking about basically what the orcs went through in what happened, EXCEPT without the whole concentration camp thing. They could have made that process a lot more directed towards integration rather than simply containment. It would have been more difficult and required more effort and sacrifice, but it could have been done (dare I say) humanely instead of locking them up like animals and making them fight to the death for entertainment. To go around pretending this WASN'T AN OPTION is incredibly callous and self-serving.

the lead mage of the alliance tried to find ways to help and failed all they could do was hold them until they got got over it, IE lock them up.

As to the condition of there imprisonment that was solely due to Blackmore pocketing the mass amount of money that was going to the camps and the death matches were to keep them in shape so they could be used as his army.

The alliance sent Aton of money to the camps so that the orcs would be kept in good conditions and even sent people to check on them with arthas him self going at one point only to be presented with thrall by Blackmore as an example of the orcs doing well.

Again your not presenting any third option your just going with lock them but with some one who wasn’t corrupt like Blackmore over seeing said locking up and covering up his theft of the funds and poor conditions.

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Dont know the details of every reason behind all those,i know the horde used red dragons,blue were working with malygos to destroy magic users,not sure what happened with green,and nether were i think illidans? in all those cases killing them seems pretty justified,mostly self defence,and like i said,the game has to have things for us to kill,those dragons were used to attack us,those elves arent in the same boat,you cant even make the argument of war from horde perspective because it was the horde attacking them in the first place

I mean it kinda sounds like you just made up a bunch of end goals that makes killing kids ok, not quite sure punting a toddler can really count as self defence either.

[deenman]

I mean it kinda sounds like you just made up a bunch of end goals that makes killing kids ok, not quite sure punting a toddler can really count as self defence either.

dragons were used to attack us...killing them is literaly self defence,sylvanas genosided a tree with innocent people that were no treath to her,and again....they were the agressors in the first place

and again...what we do as players ingame is irelevant...its game mecanics that we cant object to,the game isnt designed that way,sylvanas is presented as her own person with full agency in the story

[Biomega]

the lead mage of the alliance tried to find ways to help and failed all they could do was hold them until they got got over it, IE lock them up.

"Lock them up" can have many different implementations. They chose something degrading and inhumane. All I'm asking is that people don't pretend this ISN'T the choice they made, with no other possible choice.

Again your not presenting any third option your just going with lock them but with some one who wasn’t corrupt like Blackmore over seeing said locking up and covering up his theft of the funds and poor conditions.

So you're basically saying "well we tried but the guy in charge was corrupt, tough titties"? Quite evidently they didn't try hard enough; and if the prince of Lordaeron can go in and report "hey all is well" (and let's not go into the whole thing about using Arthas of all people as a moral standard) then that surely requires no further investigation, right?

You cannot tell me they locked up an entire race in degrading conditions and nobody in the entire world noticed just because one guy was corrupt. Clearly they either knew and didn't care, or remained ignorant and complicit. Neither is an excuse for what happened, and neither is "we had no other choice!". We've seen these excuses in the real world, too - and nobody believed them, either.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

dragons were used to attack us...killing them is literaly self defence,sylvanas genosided a tree with innocent people that were no treath to her,and again....they were the agressors in the first place

and again...what we do as players ingame is irelevant...its game mecanics that we cant object to,the game isnt designed that way,sylvanas is presented as her own person with full agency in the story

I’m not defending sylvanas I’m just pointing out that it went from there’s no justification for killing kids to we were justified in killing the kids because they had a knife.

Personally any quest to kill whelps or smash eggs always makes me feel uneasy.

[deenman]

I’m not defending sylvanas I’m just pointing out that it went from there’s no justification for killing kids to we were justified in killing the kids because they had a knife.

Personally any quest to kill whelps or smash eggs always makes me feel uneasy.

Killing sentient kids that harmed no1 and you can reason with to not harm anyone.... versus dragons raised to kill people or completly brainwashed and corrupted by old gods....or spiders/other pest like creatures that are not sentient and killing them can like in real life actualy be a positive thing for their own species survival and others

[Lorgar Aurelian]

"Lock them up" can have many different implementations. They chose something degrading and inhumane. All I'm asking is that people don't pretend this ISN'T the choice they made, with no other possible choice.

but they didn’t choose something degrading or inhumane they sent the camps so much money that it lead to alliance members leaving over the tax’s and the people of lorderon being hurt because of it to the point where the king felt bad how much they cost. They were literally destroying the alliance so they could fund taking care of the orcs instead of killing them.

So you're basically saying "well we tried but the guy in charge was corrupt, tough titties"? Quite evidently they didn't try hard enough; and if the prince of Lordaeron can go in and report "hey all is well" (and let's not go into the whole thing about using Arthas of all people as a moral standard) then that surely requires no further investigation, right?

they pulled out every stop and from all appearances the orcs were being taken care of with thrall as a key example as he was in good shape educated and treated well when there were people looking into the camps.

Arthas also wasn’t born wanting to cull some Mabye infested city folk before the plague he was a wonderful moral standard.

You cannot tell me they locked up an entire race in degrading conditions and nobody in the entire world noticed just because one guy was corrupt. Clearly they either knew and didn't care, or remained ignorant and complicit. Neither is an excuse for what happened, and neither is "we had no other choice!". We've seen these excuses in the real world, too - and nobody believed them, either.

I mean that’s the lore. The people who knew about the conditions were either in Blackmore’s pockets or peasants who wouldn’t be able to contact any one who mattered if they even knew well enough to care.

There was no compliancy or malice from any one other then Blackmore and his men this is the Meta narrative it might be bad writing but it’s the canon and the real world doesn’t matter.



So ya still no third option.

[luciano]

The only way WoW can disappoint me long term is if I do not get the chance to slit Sylvanas's throat from ear to ear.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Killing sentient kids that harmed no1 and you can reason with to not harm anyone.... versus dragons raised to kill people or completly brainwashed and corrupted by old gods....or spiders/other pest like creatures that are not sentient and killing them can like in real life actualy be a positive thing for their own species survival and others

Again I’m not so sure punting toddlers can count as self defence even if they had a bad upbringing in there like year or so of life.

The corrupt ones sure but I can’t say I agree punting toddlers just because there Parents are sketchy like with the blue/red/Mabye green.

[deenman]

Again I’m not so sure punting toddlers can count as self defence even if they had a bad upbringing in there like year or so of life.

The corrupt ones sure but I can’t say I agree punting toddlers just because there Parents are sketchy like with the blue/red/Mabye green.

well...its not like the game lets you pacify an attacking toddler,you are forced to kill it lol

[Lolites]

Mind controlled? Not at all, the duma**es gave themselves willingly with just the promise of more power, so as to kill a group that wasn't doing much to fight back.

actualy, even Nerzhul didnt know its Kiljaden, Guldan did, but other orcs thought they are folowing will of their ancestors as they did for generations, always to their benefit...

[Biomega]

I mean that’s the lore. The people who knew about the conditions were either in Blackmore’s pockets or peasants who wouldn’t be able to contact any one who mattered if they even knew well enough to care.

There was no compliancy or malice from any one other then Blackmore and his men this is the Meta narrative it might be bad writing but it’s the canon and the real world doesn’t matter.

I'd be interested to see some lore sources for this. Specifically, somewhere it actually says that the Alliance came together, decided to give the orcs a nice home to recover from their addiction, set up a vast network of logistics and support for the camps they put them in, yet somehow did it in a way that allowed ONE person in power to completely pull the wool over the eyes of any of his superiors for YEARS - but in a way that, of course, puts none of the blame on them, and all of it on that ONE person.

Holy hell, that must have been one crafty individual to have pulled that off in a massive administrative apparatus without ANYONE being the wiser through ignorance or apathy.

Of course, I hope those lore sources are something written from a neutral, informed, and unbiased perspective and not merely inferences made from statements that could have been biased or ignorant.

[Lolites]

[QUOTE=Kithelle;52975068No one told the Nightborne to go f themselves, Tyrande said they were untrustworthy (After all they did abandon Azeroth to hide in their bubble then later allied with The Legion against Azeroth) and Thaly got all butthurt over hearing the truth
[/QUOTE]

i loved the hypocrisy of being scolded for hiding and then fighting who you shouldnt by leader of night elfs, who hid in their forest for thousands of years and then attack everyone who came close...

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Well in that case it's still a no...Arthas was on the path to be the Lich King, he wasn't a Alliance leader

he was prince of alliance kingdom (the most important one at the time), so if you wont blame alliance for what he did (at the begining from HIS OWN WILL, no LK whispering until frostmourne) then you cant realy blame horde for what nerzhul (decieved by kiljaden) did, can you?

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All while The Horde was taking more and more of Night Elven land...bombing a Druid school...using enslaved molten giants

you really need to check your lore knowledge, as this was done by alliance... quite few times

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You cannot lump the people of Warcraft 3 into the faction created years later in World of Warcraft.

yet people have no issue blaming what nerzhul and guldan did on horde...

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As for the others, why is the Alliance practicing conventional warfare against the Horde insulting to you, but you want to have the opportunity to blight small towns and kill Alliance all day in game? Fanboy detected.

i wouldnt mind "conventional warfare"
but when the alliance burns civilians alive or use fire elementals to mass murder goblin miners ON HORDE teritory (zandalar) its fine bcs "Horde did worse" and "horde use blight" as if kiling civilians or using fire for mass killing is fine, bcs its not blight... like, WTF?!

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Greymane attempted to kill Sylvanas. You mean the person that attempted to blight his lands, kill everyone with the plague and killed his son in an effort to kill him?

I'd say Greymane was a tad justified trying to take a shot at Sylvanas.

Sylvanas had zero provocation to attack Gilneas, other than Garrosh wanted their lands.

atacking sylvanas (as he did in cinematic)? sure

using his position and power and troops assigned to him (mind you they werent all gilneans) to attack horde troops, who were at the time his allies agains burning legion, without any provocation whatsoever for personal reasons, regarding events from before the armistice, against the direct order?
thats a bit more difficult to not see as bad, as its technicaly a war crime...

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'd be interested to see some lore sources for this. Specifically, somewhere it actually says that the Alliance came together, decided to give the orcs a nice home to recover from their addiction, set up a vast network of logistics and support for the camps they put them in, yet somehow did it in a way that allowed ONE person in power to completely pull the wool over the eyes of any of his superiors for YEARS - but in a way that, of course, puts none of the blame on them, and all of it on that ONE person.

Holy hell, that must have been one crafty individual to have pulled that off in a massive administrative apparatus without ANYONE being the wiser through ignorance or apathy.

Of course, I hope those lore sources are something written from a neutral, informed, and unbiased perspective and not merely inferences made from statements that could have been biased or ignorant.

Your free to read chronicles or the arthas book for his/his fathers perspective on it, I believe both also mention antonidas trying to cure them. I’m sure there’s other sources as well but these are the only ones fresh in my mind.

Id say it’s more so poor writing then craftiness though but it’s the canon lore that Blackmore was keeping it under wraps while trying to make his orc army and pocketing the money to over throw the alliance while they were non the riser even though they sent people to check up on it.

Well until thrall escapes.

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well...its not like the game lets you pacify an attacking toddler,you are forced to kill it lol

Well to be fair sylvanas also had a quest from the jailer which said slay X amount of people X of course being the population of Azeroth.

[Biomega]

Your free to read chronicles or the arthas book for his/his fathers perspective on it

Hm the King and Prince not mentioning anything about how they could have messed up and/or been ignorant or indifferent about the orc's fate... You're right, that DOES sound like a good, unbiased portrayal of events. I'm convinced. The account of potential perpetrators resulting in them NOT implicating themselves is a shocking turn of events, to be sure.

[Muxtar]

Yes, I'd still support her, but if she explained her motivation logically.
Not because I justify her doings in BfA (burning of Teldrassil could be set up a lot more logical than it was) - to be honest it was completely out of her pre-BfA character, and I am sure that writers just fucked up her character in that expansion turning her to cartoon villain. But she still can be redeemed as a character, even now, although I fear that is not possible with this incompetent bunch of 'writers' that we have atm.
I always fancy playing for the grey/bad side, because being always goold ald lawful is damn boring. It is a video game after all, if I want to vent some steam, I'd do it here rather than in real life.

[Lolites]

No, it's not. The Horde was able to do that after recovering from their catatonia. At the end of the second war, it was not a viable option. One could even argue that the camps were the only thing that allowed this to happen, since otherwise they wouldn't have had a viable population.

didnt some orcs manage that without ever being caught and put in the camps?
hellscream and warsong clan, doomhammer and so on (its been a while since i read lord of clans)

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And he was right for attacking her in Stormheim, she was going to enslave the leader of the Valarjar Val'kyr, which would have caused problems with Odyn, who was instrumental to defeating Helya, who has been causing problems since as far back as Wrath. Why even should Genn be punished for this?

bcs he had no fucking clue its going to happen when he attacked?
dont put events that happen AFTER the attack as reason for atack please, it shows you are extremely biased and just look for any justification...