Would you support Sylvanas Windrunner if you still had the choice?

[Soon-TM]

conversely, just because you saved the world doesn't mean you're a noble hero. But you still saved the world, and if you did otherwise evil things because that was the only way to do it, it can still be justifiable.

That worked for Illidank, after all. Why wouldn't it work again for Sylv?

[VladlTutushkin]

That worked for Illidank, after all. Why wouldn't it work again for Sylv?

Because Illidan havent gone as far as she did? Cause even at his worst he was just a Mad Maxian warlord ruling over a post-nucle... i mean post-fel Wasteland and dominating some cannibalistic tribes into his micro-empire. His worst acts were trying to fuck with Shattrath and draining Zangarmash.

[huth]

I'm not looking for absolute certainty, I'm looking for REASONABLE amounts of information.

You outright refuse to consider how probable outcomes are. You deal exclusively in certainties. Stop lying to yourself.

What you want isn't reasonable, and what you're looking at is not even close to the entirety of the information available. No, "breaking the system" could not mean "anything". There's a lot of outcomes we can dismiss based on what we know about Sylvanas and the Jailer. Most of the remaining ones aren't favourable to us.
It most definitely doesn't earn them any points that they're not making any attempts to tell us why their actions would be necessary, either.

[Biomega]

You outright refuse to consider how probable outcomes are. You deal exclusively in certainties. Stop lying to yourself.

That's a mischaracterization. What I'm refusing is the likelihood of UNKNOWN outcomes.

Think of it like a murder trial. I don't convict someone because them being a murderer is "likely" because of their character or past actions; I do it because evidence was presented to convince me they are a murderer. But that DOESN'T mean I need ABSOLUTE certainty to be sure they're a murderer - I just need to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. There's a big spread between "this is a bad person so it's likely they're a murderer, so I'll assume they are" and "I'm absolutely certain they are/are not a murderer", they are not the only two positions.

[Specialka]

That's a mischaracterization. What I'm refusing is the likelihood of UNKNOWN outcomes.

Think of it like a murder trial. I don't convict someone because them being a murderer is "likely" because of their character or past actions; I do it because evidence was presented to convince me they are a murderer. But that DOESN'T mean I need ABSOLUTE certainty to be sure they're a murderer - I just need to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. There's a big spread between "this is a bad person so it's likely they're a murderer, so I'll assume they are" and "I'm absolutely certain they are/are not a murderer", they are not the only two positions.

So IF Sylvanas actions lead to a better world without war, death etc ... Will you be like : ok, so it is fine she did all those massacre ?

[Leyre]

Well there are two big reasons people still follow her

Never going to change Human nature...

She died to me the day she got that pos armor for her stomach >: (

[Soon-TM]

Because Illidan havent gone as far as she did? Cause even at his worst he was just a Mad Maxian warlord ruling over a post-nucle... i mean post-fel Wasteland and dominating some cannibalistic tribes into his micro-empire. His worst acts were trying to fuck with Shattrath and draining Zangarmash.

He sacrificed lots of Draenei (and even some fellow nelfs lol) in order to fuel fel engines and himself, as seen in the novel and in Legion. With the added feature that, unlike the nelfs from Burndrassil, those Draenei souls didn't even go to the Maw, but rather were destroyed for all eternity. Why should nelf souls be any more important than Draenei ones? Dooming the former is OMG KILL HER NAO /wrists but outright destroying the latter just makes you an antihero of sorts?

Yeah, I see the double standard.

[Grazrug]

I would follow Sylvanas into hell if she asked me to. Best character. I hope she gets the Kerrigan treatment and is vindicated from all her wrongdoings. Dark lady watch over us all.

[VladlTutushkin]

I would follow Sylvanas into hell if she asked me to. Best character. I hope she gets the Kerrigan treatment and is vindicated from all her wrongdoings. Dark lady watch over us all.

Erevien, you already got banned in pretty much every WoW related site, but you just cant stop digging your own grave arent you?

- - - Updated - - -

He sacrificed lots of Draenei (and even some fellow nelfs lol) in order to fuel fel engines and himself, as seen in the novel and in Legion. With the added feature that, unlike the nelfs from Burndrassil, those Draenei souls didn't even go to the Maw, but rather were destroyed for all eternity. Why should nelf souls be any more important than Draenei ones? Dooming the former is OMG KILL HER NAO /wrists but outright destroying the latter just makes you an antihero of sorts?

Yeah, I see the double standard.

Werent those draenei from Auchindon? I mean the already dead ones. And between suffering forever and being obliterated i would pick obliteration.

Plus he is a villain, just not on a scale Sylvanas is. Because he never went to the point of “fucking up entire universe and turning Death upside down”.

[Darth-Piekus]

Erevien, you already got banned in pretty much every WoW related site, but you just cant stop digging your own grave arent you?

Ok I am really very curious about one thing regarding this forum. What is Sylvannas Windrunner to everyone here? Is it some tragic misunderstood hero or is it that they like her because she spites the Alliance, Anduin and generally anything goody two shoes?

[Garretdejiko]

As an horde DK and Forsaken? Yes. As any other option, obviously not.

Anti-Sylvannas people are so self centered, they think supporting Sylvannas ingame means that the player strictly agrees with her. The community might forget sometimes, but after the MMO comes the RPG part.

[VladlTutushkin]

Ok I am really very curious about one thing regarding this forum. What is Sylvannas Windrunner to everyone here? Is it some tragic misunderstood hero or is it that they like her because she spites the Alliance, Anduin and generally anything goody two shoes?

Its the second one. Only reason she is liked is because she allows them to be as much of an assholes as they want and then get away scot free (same as she does) while spiting Alliance and being unrepentant jerks. Problem is - they dont seem to consider that Alliance players also pay the subscription and want to play the game and have fun instead of being endlessly used as punching bags and “schoolyard nerds” for horde players to vent their frustration on.

So if she wasnt so... Utterly antagonistic towards Alliance OR wasnt so untouchable due to plot armor she would have had far less following. Since some people love nothing more then to make others miserable and then get away with it due to plot contrivances.

[huth]

That's a mischaracterization. What I'm refusing is the likelihood of UNKNOWN outcomes.

Think of it like a murder trial. I don't convict someone because them being a murderer is "likely" because of their character or past actions; I do it because evidence was presented to convince me they are a murderer.

So you don't convict them because it is likely because of their character or past actions, but because it is likely due to other evidence. You still convict them because it is likely they are the murderer. And past actions can be evidence, especially when they are directly related to the case.

Besides, this is only for trials after the fact. Right now, we have to judge whether we want to prevent Sylvanas from commiting an action in the first place. You don't get the benefit of hindsight on that, and when we have the evidence you keep asking for it may be to late to do anything about it.

[Selastan]

At this point, no. If she wanted to stand against death and break the cycle, I would stand with her all the way. But the trouble is that she told NO ONE except Nathanos of her plan, and maybe even he was kept a few steps behind. The Forsaken would have done anything for her, and I'm pretty sure the Horde could have been convinced as well with her as Warchief. If she UTILIZED the Horde instead of USED it, I would have been with her. But not anymore. She's got too many hidden agendas and secrets to be trusted.

[Hugnomo]

Depends on what character I'm playing. But generally I'd say no. Even my forsaken characters, I'm more leaning towards them feeling betrayed after her "you're all nothing" scene. Though I can imagine forsaken characters being still very devoted to Sylvanas rp wise. I think we haven't been shown enough about her plans or goals to be convinced to follow her apart from blind devotion.

[Biomega]

So IF Sylvanas actions lead to a better world without war, death etc ... Will you be like : ok, so it is fine she did all those massacre ?

Of course I wouldn't be FINE with the acts she perpetrated in the sense of not thinking them evil; they are and always will be heinous. However, they may have been JUSTIFIED depending on the larger goal at stake.

For example, murdering an innocent child is morally reprehensible, and never won't be; but it can be JUSTIFIED under certain circumstances. Not only in very obvious ones (e.g. euthanasia in the face of a terminal, painful illness) but also in more "out there" ones you might find in a fictional setting like e.g. "kill this child or the planet blows up". You're not doing a good deed, but you're doing something that's justifiable in the bigger picture.

Is Sylvanas going to have something like that? Who knows. WoW writing is very shitty most of the time but it's hard to predict what kind of shitty - they might turn her into an outright martyr, some sort of tragic antihero who did what she thought was best even if it meant reprehensible acts; or they might turn her into a whiny little baby who could have just gotten herself together and done it differently but chose to give the universe the middle finger instead because reasons. Or something else entirely, of course. I'll wait and see.

[Specialka]

Of course I wouldn't be FINE with the acts she perpetrated in the sense of not thinking them evil; they are and always will be heinous. However, they may have been JUSTIFIED depending on the larger goal at stake.

For example, murdering an innocent child is morally reprehensible, and never won't be; but it can be JUSTIFIED under certain circumstances. Not only in very obvious ones (e.g. euthanasia in the face of a terminal, painful illness) but also in more "out there" ones you might find in a fictional setting like e.g. "kill this child or the planet blows up". You're not doing a good deed, but you're doing something that's justifiable in the bigger picture.

Is Sylvanas going to have something like that? Who knows. WoW writing is very shitty most of the time but it's hard to predict what kind of shitty - they might turn her into an outright martyr, some sort of tragic antihero who did what she thought was best even if it meant reprehensible acts; or they might turn her into a whiny little baby who could have just gotten herself together and done it differently but chose to give the universe the middle finger instead because reasons. Or something else entirely, of course. I'll wait and see.

So you are ok to break eggs to get shit done as long as you are not the egg. I smell a little cowardice there.

[Biomega]

So you are ok to break eggs to get shit done as long as you are not the egg. I smell a little cowardice there.

No, this isn't related to being personally affected. It's about the reasons given that could (or could not) justify the action. I might not be happy if someone killed me or someone I cared about in order to save the planet, but I'd understand why they do it, and I'd say it's justifiable if they do.

It's not that east to relate to because we don't really HAVE stakes like that in the real world. But we can have them in fictional settings.

[Specialka]

No, this isn't related to being personally affected. It's about the reasons given that could (or could not) justify the action. I might not be happy if someone killed me or someone I cared about in order to save the planet, but I'd understand why they do it, and I'd say it's justifiable if they do.

It's not that east to relate to because we don't really HAVE stakes like that in the real world. But we can have them in fictional settings.

Even if her reasons was to make a better world, I still would want to see her tried and sentence to prison or exil to redeem herself.

[Biomega]

Even if her reasons was to make a better world, I still would want to see her tried and sentence to prison or exil to redeem herself.

Even if it turns out that her doing all those things was what saved Azeroth, and that if she hadn't done them, everyone would have died? Which I'm not saying is necessarily what happened, but it's not an option we can exclude right now given our lack of information.