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  1. #1
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Faction imbalance....IQ levels......whatever....seriously!

    OK I get it that everyone says how Horde's racials are so OP for both PvE and PvP but good god one thing I've noticed in my time doing BGs and epic BGs while in merc mode is that Alliance are literally just bad in terms of PvP and it has nothing to do with racials at all.

    Example one: doing WG as Alliance on the offensive and we broke down not one not two but THREE walls during our fight. Most of the fight we had either 12 vehicles or 16 up. Not one of our towers were destroyed because the Horde weren't even attempting to do it (probably because of epic BG quest this week) Three walls AND full timer because no towers were destroyed means we won right? NOPE. We broke down three walls on the outside of the keep and didn't even get in the inner part at all. All of this because people were idiots and couldn't focus on one side.

    Example two: In IOC as Alliance again and we manage to break down the wall to enter the keep a good 4 minutes before the Horde were able to break the Alliance wall down and enter. Sounds great right? Nope! We had him at 64% when they went all in. We lost with only being able to take him down to 12% before the Horde killed their boss.

    Example three: In Twin Peaks and we each team has the flag. They have a resto shaman and balance druid holding their flag in their base. We had 4 people with the FC guarding him, 4 people fighting mid, and me a resto druid being the only person even going to their base to see what's going on. Mind you we had THREE rogues plus me being a druid that could all stealth in their base yet nobody wanted to leave mid or the FC to do it. With 4 people guarding our FC they still managed to return our flag and obviously we lost that match.

    Example four: Doing Eye of the Storm and we have two bases and have been flipping or stopping the Horde from getting a second base. We have the flag. We are up by about 500 points. We cap the flag instead of holding onto it when there was no pressure on us at the base where the FC was. Horde controls mid. Horde then proceeds to run 4 flags back to back by controlling mid. We lose.

    Something I noticed is that when EMFH got nerfed and is not as OP as it was for the two expansions, Alliance can't seem to win in battlegrounds. It is as if ONE single racial carried an entire faction in PvP and when the Alliance lost it, they couldn't win in PvP for anything.

  2. #2
    I farmed over 100k honor in the last weeks across my toons (only queueing epic BGs) and cannot confirm that. Usually I queue as mercenary (actually I play horde, but 1 minute waiting times against 10 are obviously worth it), but when I do dailies I also queue as horde.
    The win ratio in epic bgs seems to be roughly 50:50, and I've had retarded actions on both sides. Yesterday we lost WG def as horde, I wasn't sure that this was even possible.

    No idea about normal BGs, though.

    Btw, fun fact, usually half the players are actually playing in mercenary mode (you can check by sharing horde only quests, like kill tremblade in ashram - you will see who is not eligible (they are actual alliance)), so faction imbalance matters even less.
    Last edited by Puri; 2021-01-29 at 11:27 AM.

  3. #3
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puri View Post
    I farmed over 100k honor in the last weeks across my toons (only queueing epic BGs) and cannot confirm that. Usually I queue as mercenary (actually I play horde, but 1 minute waiting times against 10 are obviously worth it), but when I do dailies I also queue as horde.
    The win ratio in epic bgs seems to be roughly 50:50, and I've had retarded actions on both sides. Yesterday we lost WG def as horde, I wasn't sure that this was even possible.

    No idea about normal BGs, though.

    Btw, fun fact, usually half the players are actually playing in mercenary mode (you can check by sharing horde only quests, like kill tremblade in ashram - you will see who is not eligible (they are actual alliance)), so faction imbalance matters even less.
    If you use TipTac it will show you who is actually what race while playing merc mode. I do that every time I'm in a BG and see 1-3 other Horde players in there. Its usually only 1 or 2 others but it is def not half the team. I do agree though the honor per hour is best for Horde players doing merc mode or normal Alliance players regardless of if you win or not. Of course winning yields more honor but even if I sit there and lose every single match I play in the hour I've got my merc mode buff I have gained more than had I queued as Horde and won whatever I could in that hour's time. The problem comes in when you have quests to WIN so many matches and queue in merc mode. I haven't even started doing my Alliance characters in Shadowlands content yet so I can't even speak for just playing as a normal Alliance character in PvP but I'm sure its about the same as Horde doing merc mode. Easy and fast honor win or lose. Still doesn't change the fact that there seems to be some kind of defect with the Alliance players in terms of PvP matches. No exaggeration when I said that it seems like that one racial EMFH carried an entire faction while it was still a powerful one.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    OK I get it that everyone says how Horde's racials are so OP for both PvE and PvP but good god one thing I've noticed in my time doing BGs and epic BGs while in merc mode is that Alliance are literally just bad in terms of PvP and it has nothing to do with racials at all.

    Example one: doing WG as Alliance on the offensive and we broke down not one not two but THREE walls during our fight. Most of the fight we had either 12 vehicles or 16 up. Not one of our towers were destroyed because the Horde weren't even attempting to do it (probably because of epic BG quest this week) Three walls AND full timer because no towers were destroyed means we won right? NOPE. We broke down three walls on the outside of the keep and didn't even get in the inner part at all. All of this because people were idiots and couldn't focus on one side.

    Example two: In IOC as Alliance again and we manage to break down the wall to enter the keep a good 4 minutes before the Horde were able to break the Alliance wall down and enter. Sounds great right? Nope! We had him at 64% when they went all in. We lost with only being able to take him down to 12% before the Horde killed their boss.

    Example three: In Twin Peaks and we each team has the flag. They have a resto shaman and balance druid holding their flag in their base. We had 4 people with the FC guarding him, 4 people fighting mid, and me a resto druid being the only person even going to their base to see what's going on. Mind you we had THREE rogues plus me being a druid that could all stealth in their base yet nobody wanted to leave mid or the FC to do it. With 4 people guarding our FC they still managed to return our flag and obviously we lost that match.

    Example four: Doing Eye of the Storm and we have two bases and have been flipping or stopping the Horde from getting a second base. We have the flag. We are up by about 500 points. We cap the flag instead of holding onto it when there was no pressure on us at the base where the FC was. Horde controls mid. Horde then proceeds to run 4 flags back to back by controlling mid. We lose.

    Something I noticed is that when EMFH got nerfed and is not as OP as it was for the two expansions, Alliance can't seem to win in battlegrounds. It is as if ONE single racial carried an entire faction in PvP and when the Alliance lost it, they couldn't win in PvP for anything.
    took me a while to realize WG is Wintergrasp, first time I see it being abreviated as such, WG has always been Warsong Gulch
    You don't understand. Having an unpayed full time job that no one appreciates is the magic of classic.

    It's about the journey. The journey into depression. The journey of running a daycare full of middle-aged alcoholics ignoring their SOs and avoiding social engagements to fulfill something they wanted 15 years ago before everyone realized it's not hard at all.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by vitor210 View Post
    took me a while to realize WG is Wintergrasp, first time I see it being abreviated as such, WG has always been Warsong Gulch
    Warsong Gulch has always been WSG, where have you been in past 13 years

  6. #6
    Brewmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enclave View Post
    Warsong Gulch has always been WSG, where have you been in past 13 years
    never seen WSG been used before, specialy bc Warsong Gulch was released with Classic and wintergrasp was released only in wotlk, doesn't make any sense that the older version has an extra letter it's like the kids that say DM is Dire Maul when it was always Deadmines
    You don't understand. Having an unpayed full time job that no one appreciates is the magic of classic.

    It's about the journey. The journey into depression. The journey of running a daycare full of middle-aged alcoholics ignoring their SOs and avoiding social engagements to fulfill something they wanted 15 years ago before everyone realized it's not hard at all.

  7. #7
    personally i find the enemy faction winning most of the times
    horde or alliance - i'm most likely teamed /w AFK-ers and leavers against world champions

    it's been like that for years for me
    Shadowlands is real world
    The Maw is China
    The Jailer is China government
    Sylvanas is Blizz

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by vitor210 View Post
    took me a while to realize WG is Wintergrasp, first time I see it being abreviated as such, WG has always been Warsong Gulch
    Warsong was always WSG. Never heard anyone calling Warsong Gulch WG

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vitor210 View Post
    never seen WSG been used before, specialy bc Warsong Gulch was released with Classic and wintergrasp was released only in wotlk, doesn't make any sense that the older version has an extra letter it's like the kids that say DM is Dire Maul when it was always Deadmines
    I would ask if you are French, because they Call M+ MM+, HC - HM, N - NM which was a unseen way for me to call it like that, but your profile says you are from Portugal.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire LuckyOne's Avatar
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    Horde has a lower casual ratio than alliance in my experience for the last few years (just look at hall of fame and M+ participation, it's dire.)
    So you could abreviate that you will on average find more invested players on Horde side in random Bg's.

    Don't misunderstand me, someone who is decent at PvE doesn't have to be decent at PvP, but someone who can't or doesn't want to learn the simple scripted pve fights and priority lists for his class sure as hell also won't be good at pvp.
    Last edited by LuckyOne; 2021-01-29 at 01:09 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    Horde has a lower casual ratio than alliance in my experience for the last few years (just look at hall of fame and M+ participation, it's dire.)
    So you could abreviate that you will on average find more invested players on Horde side in random Bg's.

    Don't misunderstand me, someone who is decent at PvE doesn't have to be decent at PvP, but someone who can't or doesn't want to learn the simple scripted pve fights and priority lists for his class sure as hell also won't be good at pvp.
    it is more like tryhards that switch from alliance to horde. In general after 10-15 years in a game.. you do not have to play it that seriously and can still enjoy it. Especially if you yourself have aged that 10-15 years in the same timeframe.

    That does not mean that not both factions have those players.

  11. #11
    As Horde I found the 50-59 Bracket I was winning 9 out of 10 matches. At 60, I got my feelings hurt when the win\loss became more like 6 out of 10. Time of day seems to make a pretty big difference in my limited experience. At 7am EST, Ally seems to be fairly good. By around noon EST Horde seems to win a little more, and after 5PM on non raid days Horde seems to do best.

    I think the large disparities come down to which team has the most AFKers. I have now lost 2 WG defense games as Horde now. In both cases we had roughly 10 people with 0 damage done for the match. Ally side *seems* to have a worse AFK problem or are the quickest to proclaim "It's over" 2 minutes into a match. I wish I had a better means of counting win\loss games other than trying to remember or keep a notebook handy and write down.

  12. #12
    While I may share some of your experiences, I still think that it is anecdotic evidence. Since still quite a lot of people still player WoW, it is highly probable that the IQ levels are balanced. Of course frustrating experience that confirm your (and mine) bias will be longer in our memory, because - especially on the internet - we love to complain, may feel entitlement to win (especially if we perceive us better than others). I guess only when it becomes traumatizing we will be able to repress the bad experiences quicker

    On a side note, as Horde player DM is Dire Maul, because we seldom (if ever) went to deadmines in classic.

  13. #13
    soon, like arena, bgs will be horde vs horde too. in every game when i am tempted to queue as merc ( waaaay shorter queues in eu ) almost %50 of the blue team conists of mercs.

    on twilight's hammer server, i didn't see a single, nada, not even one alliance player that has their wm on for like a week or something. they used to try to farm the exit to maw from candle head dude but not even that anymore. i wonder what is going on at the other side ?

  14. #14
    yeah that's because good pvp players don't do random BGs

  15. #15
    I have yet to level a Horde character yet (waiting for resto druids to be slightly more useful) but I do find that some alliance players are just ignorant of how the BG's work, even after 10+ years of them being out:
    - Players fighting midfield in AB constantly and completely ignoring bases
    - People exclusively going for the mine in AB
    - People dismounting midfield in WSG and TP instead of riding by to attack the enemy flag carrier
    - People running flags with a single base in EotS or capping the flag when the enemy faction controls the middle
    - People capping a base and then leaving it immediately
    - Zergs hitting the same broken bit of wall in WG when the entire enemy is there defending

    I swear I have single handily swung battlegrounds by holding the flag in EotS and refusing to cap until we own 3 bases or 2 bases and the middle, and in WG taking a siege engine and attacking a new direction while the enemy is busy counter zerging and reacting far too late to stop the backdoor incursion I set up.
    RETH

  16. #16
    Horde has always been the hub for more hardcore players. That won't change so long as alliance remains the Disney faction.

  17. #17
    everything started in warcraft III

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gaymer77 View Post
    OK I get it that everyone says how Horde's racials are so OP for both PvE and PvP
    They're not. Alliance has had better racials for quite some time now. Top raiding guilds have repeatedly stated that if it came down to racials, they'd all be Alliance no question.

    The racials problem is a historic one. Horde USED to have the better racials in the past, and that prompted a migration towards Horde for top-end players that eventually spiraled out of control. When Blizzard reacted, it was too late.

    Now what's keeping people on Horde is practically exclusively the community, which includes all the advantages of a highly concentrated player pool and economy. The reason why top raiding guilds are NOT transferring to Alliance despite the better racials is purely the community problem: Horde has a larger pool of potential recruits, it has more people to support the guilds in things like split runs or farming, it has the better economy with more available consumables/materials/BoEs, etc. etc. And because all the top guilds are Horde, this also increases the average player skill level in certain sections of the population - as Limit's GM put it, Alliance players are "NPCs", i.e. they're just much worse, on average, than Horde players simply because the people ambitious enough in WoW will naturally gravitate towards other ambitious players, and most of those are concentrated on the Horde side; further increasing the demographic spread, and feeding back into the cycle.

    EDIT: And yes, I'm sure someone will point out that there are two exceptions: on both Oceanic and (I believe) Russian realms Alliance is where the top guilds are, so the situation is largely reversed there.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2021-01-29 at 09:37 PM.

  19. #19
    I am Murloc! gaymer77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vitor210 View Post
    took me a while to realize WG is Wintergrasp, first time I see it being abreviated as such, WG has always been Warsong Gulch
    Warsong Gulch has always been WSG even back in vanilla. I've never heard anyone refer to it as WG until today to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by even View Post
    While I may share some of your experiences, I still think that it is anecdotic evidence. Since still quite a lot of people still player WoW, it is highly probable that the IQ levels are balanced. Of course frustrating experience that confirm your (and mine) bias will be longer in our memory, because - especially on the internet - we love to complain, may feel entitlement to win (especially if we perceive us better than others). I guess only when it becomes traumatizing we will be able to repress the bad experiences quicker

    On a side note, as Horde player DM is Dire Maul, because we seldom (if ever) went to deadmines in classic.
    Oh trust me this is not an issue of feeling entitled to a win because I know you can't win them all. Its just the fact that I've seen so much bad playing in battlegrounds and bad decision making that it makes me question the player on the other side of the Alliance character. When you are set up for a win as great as I've seen, you get floored when the other side just comes in easily and wins instead. In every one of those examples I listed, there's no reason why we should have lost other than the fact that the Alliance players we had were very incompetent in how they were playing. Sadly this one day's worth of PvP with the Alliance was not an isolated day. Typically when I dod PvP quests for "earn X amount of honor" I queue merc mode to get it done faster. When its just "win X many matches" I don't go merc mode and I'm done relatively quickly playing as Horde.

    And on your side note, yes playing as Alliance the first year and then Horde after that DM was Deadmine until Dire Maul came out then Deadmines became VC and yes Horde very seldomly went to Deadmines for anything unless they were twinking.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by vitor210 View Post
    never seen WSG been used before, specialy bc Warsong Gulch was released with Classic and wintergrasp was released only in wotlk, doesn't make any sense that the older version has an extra letter it's like the kids that say DM is Dire Maul when it was always Deadmines
    Wrong. DM is Dire Mail, Deadlines is VC and no one called Warsong Gulch WG. It is WSG. This comes from a player who doesn't lie about being there during Vanilla. I bet you call Vanilla Classic as well. /Smh

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    Horde has always been the hub for more hardcore players. That won't change so long as alliance remains the Disney faction.
    Uhhhh...
    The Disney faction is Horde. Most if their movies have the ugly peron turn beautiful. That's exactly what horde is. The ugly people who get blood elves and become beautiful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

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