View Poll Results: Should they be labeled as a terrorist organization?

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  • No [I'm Conservative]

    8 13.33%
  • Yes [I'm Liberal]

    33 55.00%
  • Yes [I'm Conservative]

    2 3.33%
  • No [I'm Liberal]

    17 28.33%
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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    What rabbit hole? Classifying QAnon as a terrorist organization, would inhibit their ability to organize. If they are not an organized group as they claim... what’s lost? They will just get new members, because it’s a logical conclusion that everyone can come to with enouph research? With enough research QAnon will gain members, because anyone can tell JFK jr was a hidden agent that trusted Trump with the future of America... do your research...
    They aren't organizing. The militias and the Proud Boys, etc, are the ones organizing, go after them and go after them hard. QAnon isn't an organization just like antifa isn't. The repubs started this shit with War on Terror.....we have to stop the nebulous crap and go after the concrete things....like Proud Boys or the Bundys for example.

  2. #282
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    They aren't organizing. The militias and the Proud Boys, etc, are the ones organizing, go after them and go after them hard. QAnon isn't an organization just like antifa isn't. The repubs started this shit with War on Terror.....we have to stop the nebulous crap and go after the concrete things....like Proud Boys for example.
    How about we meet in the middle... They make QAnon a terrorist organization, so they can catch QAnon militias, while leaving the law abiding ones alone? Switching targets to be more generic, doesn’t help your point...

    Also, unless you are willing to claim that democrats are coming for white people... I’d suggest not using ‘Republicans started’ in this context. There is no white people ban, to stop QAnon terrorist, until we figure out what’s going on.
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  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    How about we meet in the middle... They make QAnon a terrorist organization, so they can catch QAnon militias, while leaving the law abiding ones alone? Switching targets to be more generic, doesn’t help your point...

    Also, unless you are willing to claim that democrats are coming for white people... I’d suggest not using ‘Republicans started’ in this context. There is no white people ban, to stop QAnon terrorist, until we figure out what’s going on.
    Yeah no.

    What you're doing is like being angry about the systemic pedophilia of Catholic priests so you want to go after "Christianity" instead of the Vatican. QAnon is terrible, but its not an organization. The different groups that actually organize are the terrorists.

    Your second paragraph doesn't make any sense to me at all. Republicans started this whole making a nebulous concept a concrete thing. They did it with terrorism and the media and antifa, and now you guys want to do it with QAnon.

    Go after the actual groups and label them terrorists because they are and make the QAnon crap taboo the same way the n-word is.

  4. #284
    Void Lord Felya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    What you're doing is like being angry about the systemic pedophilia of Catholic priests so you want to go after "Christianity" instead of the Vatican. QAnon is terrible, but its not an organization. The different groups that actually organize are the terrorists.
    No... I said we only go after QAnon militias... you used the generic militias. QAnon is not a subset of a greater whole, unless that whole is GOP... and I am not saying to go make GOP a terrorist organization. Just the QAnon subset, that are actually terrorist.

    Your second paragraph doesn't make any sense to me at all. Republicans started this whole making a nebulous concept a concrete thing. They did it with terrorism and the media and antifa, and now you guys want to do it with QAnon.
    What do you consider the start of the nebulous concept of terrorist, by Republicans, if not the Muslim fear mongering? You think it’s Antifa? Good luck with that... I’m sure they will arrest the Watkins equivalent of Antifa, any second now. lol

    Go after the actual groups and label them terrorists because they are and make the QAnon crap taboo the same way the n-word is.
    Okay... I am going after QAnon groups... since I want QAnon to be labeled terrorist... any group that labels them selfs QAnon... is what? Labeling them selfs... what?

    Edit: I am sorry... QAnon, as the new N-word? Can you expand on that...
    Last edited by Felya; 2021-02-02 at 02:32 PM.
    Folly and fakery have always been with us... but it has never before been as dangerous as it is now, never in history have we been able to afford it less. - Isaac Asimov
    Every damn thing you do in this life, you pay for. - Edith Piaf
    The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command. - Orwell
    No amount of belief makes something a fact. - James Randi

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Go after the actual groups and label them terrorists because they are and make the QAnon crap taboo the same way the n-word is.
    The problem with Qanon is that its not anything new. Its just the conservative conspiracy theory du jour. The KKK is "taboo" but there are still adherents to the actual thing and a lot more people who are sympathetic to it. How many discussions have we had here about removing Confederate statues?

    People with shitty thoughts will just latch on to something to reinforce their beliefs rather than give up their shitty thoughts.

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    No... I said we only go after QAnon militias... you used the generic militias. QAnon is not a subset of a greater whole, unless that whole is GOP... and I am not saying to go make GOP a terrorist organization. Just the QAnon subset, that are actually terrorist.



    What do you consider the start of the nebulous concept of terrorist, by Republicans, if not the Muslim fear mongering? You think it’s Antifa? Good luck with that... I’m sure they will arrest the Watkins equivalent of Antifa, any second now. lol



    Okay... I am going after QAnon groups... since I want QAnon to be labeled terrorist... any group that labels them selfs QAnon... is what? Labeling them selfs... what?

    Edit: I am sorry... QAnon, as the new N-word? Can you expand on that...
    You just aren't making sense.

    QAnon is a concept not an organization. There's nothing in and of itself to label a terrorist organization. Just like Antifa. Go after the QAnon spouting and believing militias as they are tangible organizations. And that can be done by declaring them individually as terrorist organizations.

    You can't declare war on a concept. Terrorism is nebulous. Declaring war on AQ or ISIS is one thing, declaring war on a nebulous concept like terrorism is boundary less and without those boundaries can easily be abused. This is how they brainwash their base, by creating concrete entities out of nebulous things....like "the media". If it is nebulous then it is malleable and can be used for whatever they want it to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The problem with Qanon is that its not anything new. Its just the conservative conspiracy theory du jour. The KKK is "taboo" but there are still adherents to the actual thing and a lot more people who are sympathetic to it. How many discussions have we had here about removing Confederate statues?

    People with shitty thoughts will just latch on to something to reinforce their beliefs rather than give up their shitty thoughts.
    People are stupid. Always have been. We cannot legislate thoughts, we can, however, legislate action. QAnon concepts should be turned into a social pariah and anyone that takes action based on QAnon, like storming capitals or making threats, should be gone after by the law.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Right, so the thing is, not all forms of political violence are equally bad.


    Scenario 1. Kristalnacht.
    Scenario 2. The Romanian Revolution of 1989 (a relatively recent event in a European nation.)

    Both were politically motivated, both were bloody and messy events, and both had public murders.

    One produced a genocidal regime that lead to a war that rampaged across the world and killed hundreds of millions.

    The other produced (after much pain) a functioning and stable democracy with a multi ethnic state with a fairly decent future outlook. That's after the televised execution of a dictator and his wife and nation wide violence, looting and destruction of public and private property.

    There is a point where political violence is ultimately not just acceptable but necessary.

    Punch the fascist loudmouth today so he can't put you and millions of others into death camps tomorrow.

    Create havock in the streets to force institutional reform today before the police and justice system become extensions of your local Nazi party.

    The past 4 years the US has become uncomfortably close to sliding down on the slippery slope of fascism and action had to be taken, in some cases radical action to oppose public displays of radicalism and to at least force some law enforcement and local governance reforms.

    I don't know if you have noticed, but the severity of Antifa's actions is directly proportional to the scale of the imminent threat (at least in the US). Police killings, Fascist public displays like Charlottesville (I'd argue the Unite the Right rally, even without the car rampage was an act of political violence meant to intimidate and to normalize public displays of fascism and white supremacy) triggered the most virulent reactions.

    That one sad lone Trump supporter who made it to pro Trump rally on inauguration day wasn't swamped and beaten senseless, nor did rioters trash the national mall demanding police reform.

    It's very easy to get rid of Antifa. Get rid of the fascists.
    You're oversimplifying the problem and consequently missing the point. Nobody here is talking about a revolution in an authoritarian regime that violent protest doesn't have its place. What you're glossing over is that Romania had one of the brutal dictatorships. The amount of violence in response to Romania's regime in the end doesn't nearly outweigh the violence that was done to the Romanian people before.

    In Germany, however, there was zero violence that wasn't instigated by Nazis themselves. The Capitol attack? In response to zero oppression, zero violence done to Trump supporters. Quite the opposite, the constitution that they were attempting to overthrow was protecting them right up until the very end when they started trespassing.

    It seems to me that you still do not understand the point that is being made by many posters here. Both QAnon and the militant blocs of Antifa frequently break the law of countries that are considered free, democratic and just, by an overwhelming majority of their populations and legal science. Both sides have a right to say whatever bullshit comes into their mind (within the framework of the law, incitement is well outside the allowed framework). Both are a danger to society when they start breaking property or even hurt people. Antifa's position is in general just as retarded as the alt-right in that they are a reactionary movement creating the fascist enemy image whenever they don't agree with something, to legitimise their "protests" against what everyone else considers are normal, if boring, democratic institutions and rulesets.

    The original "modern" Antifa spawning in Germany out of the student movements of '68 had a legitimate reason to protest against ex-Nazi people still remaining in executive and directorial functions at Universities. That cause has long ago run its course due to age and Nazis mostly being dead by now.

    So, do not glorify either side, they are both destructive forces in society. Albeit, as it turns out, Antifa is less destructive in that by and large their damage is limited to property. The alt-right however seems to know no limit. Human lives do not matter to them any more than the actual constitution of what most people would consider the first modern democracy on the planet.

    The proper way to deal with extremists is through the law. Creating havoc in the street and causing disturbances makes you part of the problem. LITERALLY you are no better than the forces you protest against. Have a peaceful protest with tens of thousands of participants and no one would complain. Heck, I might even join you. But if you can't attract more than a few hundred because your cause is not relevant anymore, then don't start smashing things up just to get attention. Which is exactly the strategy of the black bloc in Antifa. Heck, even worse... recently I have noticed the trend of what I like to call "chaos tourism" where people join a cause, any cause, just to be violent and hide in the crowd. And both sides are guilty of that. Those ex-military guys in the Capitol run? They don't give a shit about Trump or the cause. They just wanted to be violent, they have issues. They need to be institutionalized.

    And let me be very clear. YOU DO NOT HAVE FASCISM IN THE US! It takes a special kind of retard to pretend Antifa even makes sense in the US. Your people have seen the fun we have every Mayday in Europe and they wanted to copy it. Naturally, lacking imagination, they copied everything, including the justification and the cause, without checking if it even makes sense in the US.

    You have your own civil liberty movements, you have probably more valid causes than anyone in Europe. We just protest and smash things up out of tradition at this point. DON'T USE WORDS YOU DON'T KNOW THE MEANING OF. Literally, Antifa in the US is an oxymoron.
    Last edited by Slant; 2021-02-02 at 04:00 PM.
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  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You're oversimplifying the problem and consequently missing the point. Nobody here is talking about a revolution in an authoritarian regime that violent protest doesn't have its place. What you're glossing over is that Romania had one of the brutal dictatorships. The amount of violence in response to Romania's regime in the end doesn't nearly outweigh the violence that was done to the Romanian people before.

    In Germany, however, there was zero violence that wasn't instigated by Nazis themselves. The Capitol attack? In response to zero oppression, zero violence done to Trump supporters. Quite the opposite, the constitution that they were attempting to overthrow was protecting them right up until the very end when they started trespassing.

    It seems to me that you still do not understand the point that is being made by many posters here. Both QAnon and the militant blocs of Antifa frequently break the law of countries that are considered free, democratic and just, by an overwhelming majority of their populations and legal science. Both sides have a right to say whatever bullshit comes into their mind (within the framework of the law, incitement is well outside the allowed framework). Both are a danger to society when they start breaking property or even hurt people. Antifa's position is in general just as retarded as the alt-right in that they are a reactionary movement creating the fascist enemy image whenever they don't agree with something, to legitimise their "protests" against what everyone else considers are normal, if boring, democratic institutions and rulesets.

    The original "modern" Antifa spawning in Germany out of the student movements of '68 had a legitimate reason to protest against ex-Nazi people still remaining in executive and directorial functions at Universities. That cause has long ago run its course due to age and Nazis mostly being dead by now.

    So, do not glorify either side, they are both destructive forces in society. Albeit, as it turns out, Antifa is less destructive in that by and large their damage is limited to property. The alt-right however seems to know no limit. Human lives do not matter to them any more than the actual constitution of what most people would consider the first modern democracy on the planet.

    The proper way to deal with extremists is through the law. Creating havoc in the street and causing disturbances makes you part of the problem. LITERALLY you are no better than the forces you protest against. Have a peaceful protest with tens of thousands of participants and no one would complain. Heck, I might even join you. But if you can't attract more than a few hundred because your cause is not relevant anymore, then don't start smashing things up just to get attention. Which is exactly the strategy of the black bloc in Antifa. Heck, even worse... recently I have noticed the trend of what I like to call "chaos tourism" where people join a cause, any cause, just to be violent and hide in the crowd. And both sides are guilty of that. Those ex-military guys in the Capitol run? They don't give a shit about Trump or the cause. They just wanted to be violent, they have issues. They need to be institutionalized.

    And let me be very clear. YOU DO NOT HAVE FASCISM IN THE US! It takes a special kind of retard to pretend Antifa even makes sense in the US. Your people have seen the fun we have every Mayday in Europe and they wanted to copy it. Naturally, lacking imagination, they copied everything, including the justification and the cause, without checking if it even makes sense in the US.

    You have your own civil liberty movements, you have probably more valid causes than anyone in Europe. We just protest and smash things up out of tradition at this point. DON'T USE WORDS YOU DON'T KNOW THE MEANING OF. Literally, Antifa in the US is an oxymoron.
    Black people are being murdered by the police without facing any legal consequences.

    That is facsim.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Black people are being murdered by the police without facing any legal consequences.

    That is facsim.
    It's not. Never has been. It's the old problem of slavery/racial discrimination that the US still hasn't actually solved. Don't distract from the problem by giving it a fancy label that gets you all excited and shit. Your Government is very much not fascist. Your state Governments are very much not fascist. Your police force is badly trained in some areas, it has systemic screening problems in other areas... there is a whole list of things that are going wrong and glossing over them with one sweeping and scandalizing label does not solve the problem. It creates more problems and you're not working on the issue.

    See, here's what's happening... you talk about black people, but where are they in this alt-right/antifa discussion? That's right, they are not part of it. This is a purely white bullshit problem that white people use to distract themselves from the actual systemic problem of racial injustices. "Oh no, he's so fascist!" - "Oh, he's such a leftist" Yeah, yeah, nobody gives a shit... both sides are responsible for black people being mistreated by the police. Both sides are just too happy with the social inequality when it suits them, and when they are the poor trailer park rednecks, it's about THEM being poor, not the black.

    So no, the US is not fascist. The US is... many things, complicated mostly, a bit naive at times and has a hard time looking itself squarely in the eyes to confront its shortcomings.... but that doesn't make the US political system fascist. So stop that bullshit.
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  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not. Never has been. It's the old problem of slavery/racial discrimination that the US still hasn't actually solved. Don't distract from the problem by giving it a fancy label that gets you all excited and shit. Your Government is very much not fascist. Your state Governments are very much not fascist. Your police force is badly trained in some areas, it has systemic screening problems in other areas... there is a whole list of things that are going wrong and glossing over them with one sweeping and scandalizing label does not solve the problem. It creates more problems and you're not working on the issue.

    See, here's what's happening... you talk about black people, but where are they in this alt-right/antifa discussion? That's right, they are not part of it. This is a purely white bullshit problem that white people use to distract themselves from the actual systemic problem of racial injustices. "Oh no, he's so fascist!" - "Oh, he's such a leftist" Yeah, yeah, nobody gives a shit... both sides are responsible for black people being mistreated by the police. Both sides are just too happy with the social inequality when it suits them, and when they are the poor trailer park rednecks, it's about THEM being poor, not the black.

    So no, the US is not fascist. The US is... many things, complicated mostly, a bit naive at times and has a hard time looking itself squarely in the eyes to confront its shortcomings.... but that doesn't make the US political system fascist. So stop that bullshit.
    I mean you're wrong.

    If you are black american then this:

    fascism
    1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
    Applies pretty much on the nose.

  11. #291
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I mean you're wrong.

    If you are black american then this:



    Applies pretty much on the nose.
    It's a knee-jerk response based on emotion, not reason. I made a similar argument when Trump was put in office; he hit pretty much every single one of Umberto Eco's 14 points that define fascism. The one he didn't (#11; "everyone is educated to become a hero"), at the time, he'd met by the time he left office, and the January 6th insurrection demonstrated that in spades.

    The entire counter-argument boils down to "But fascism is bad. My country isn't bad. I like my country. Therefore it can't be fascism."

    That's obviously not an argument at all.

    The entire argument completely ignores what fascism actually is, to present it as a shadowy meaningless monster, just so you can hand-wave the argument being made.

    The USA has not only been fascism-adjacent for a very long time, many of its legal structures were explicitly used by fascists in forming their own fascist horrors; the Nuremberg transcripts in which the Nazi Reich developed their approach to race laws explicitly cites the USA's Jim Crow laws as one of their chief inspirations and building blocks.

    If you want to argue that the USA is obviously not-fascist, you're gonna need to make an effort to be objective about it, and qualify your arguments regarding an actual academic definition of fascism. Not just "but they're the baddies. We're not the baddies, are we?"

  12. #292
    I think the US has something that could become fascism, but it's not there yet thankfully. You could call it neo-fascism, fascism-lite or something I guess?

    By the definition linked above, it meets some of the criteria but not all of them. You still have a democracy in the US, even if it's not perfect (like any other country), individualism is also fairly strong in the US. That said I don't mean to downplay what is happening in the US, and the best parallel might be early 1930s Germany (before Hitler took power). You should still be very much concerned and fight this.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    I think the US has something that could become fascism, but it's not there yet thankfully. You could call it neo-fascism, fascism-lite or something I guess?

    By the definition linked above, it meets some of the criteria but not all of them. You still have a democracy in the US, even if it's not perfect (like any other country), individualism is also fairly strong in the US. That said I don't mean to downplay what is happening in the US, and the best parallel might be early 1930s Germany (before Hitler took power). You should still be very much concerned and fight this.
    One more time....if you are a Black American, that definition fits completely.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    One more time....if you are a Black American, that definition fits completely.
    I don't see how it fits completely.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I mean you're wrong.

    If you are black american then this:



    Applies pretty much on the nose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's a knee-jerk response based on emotion, not reason. I made a similar argument when Trump was put in office; he hit pretty much every single one of Umberto Eco's 14 points that define fascism. The one he didn't (#11; "everyone is educated to become a hero"), at the time, he'd met by the time he left office, and the January 6th insurrection demonstrated that in spades.

    The entire counter-argument boils down to "But fascism is bad. My country isn't bad. I like my country. Therefore it can't be fascism."

    That's obviously not an argument at all.

    The entire argument completely ignores what fascism actually is, to present it as a shadowy meaningless monster, just so you can hand-wave the argument being made.

    The USA has not only been fascism-adjacent for a very long time, many of its legal structures were explicitly used by fascists in forming their own fascist horrors; the Nuremberg transcripts in which the Nazi Reich developed their approach to race laws explicitly cites the USA's Jim Crow laws as one of their chief inspirations and building blocks.

    If you want to argue that the USA is obviously not-fascist, you're gonna need to make an effort to be objective about it, and qualify your arguments regarding an actual academic definition of fascism. Not just "but they're the baddies. We're not the baddies, are we?"
    Ok, let me have a go at this. I'll make this easy and take your definition:

    fascism
    1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
    Let's remove some of the obvious waste and trim it down to what I think applies to our situation the best:

    - A political movement or regime

    Sure, the US is a political "regime" if you want to call it that in the sense that a regime is "a form of Government". I'd agree with this.

    - that exalts nation and often race above the individual

    Now, we're talking about plain nationalism here. While I'm the first to accuse Americans of drowning in their own nationalism, I know for a fact that most US Americans view themselves as strong individuals and living in a country that promotes their individualism. This is evidenced by the fact that the US does not have a federal identification system like an ID card that is required by law to be owned by every US citizen. It is further evidenced by the catalogue of civil liberties strengthening specifically the individual's rights and freedoms against the state.

    I would strongly disagree with this point applying to the US. If nothing else, the second amendment very much gives the individual the legitimised power to overthrow a tyrannical Government. While I'm not familiar with the details of the legal discussion, I am fairly certain the question of whether or not this applies only to external Governments or the US Government itself is still open for debate.

    As far as race goes, I've kept that in because I wanted to make a point of it. The official position of the US Governement is that all men are created equal. BY DEFINITION the US already falls out of the pattern for "fascist" on this point. You have lost the debate.

    But let's continue for funsies:

    - A centralized autocratic Government

    The US is a federal democracy. The way I understand the political system, the original plan was to have pretty much all authority lie with the state Governments. The Federal Government has assumed more and more of these authorities, so if I wanted to be nice to you, I'd even let you have the "centralised" part.

    If I was having a bad day, I'd point out the relative independence of the 50 states to you. The fact that the US has codified division of power in the executive, legislative and judiciary branch with oversight and control... what you guys call checks and balances.

    If nothing else, this item is negative simply because the US is not an autocracy. There is no ABSOLUTE POWER for the US Government. An Autocracy by definition requires an absolute, centralised form of Government. The US does NOT have that. Not even a little bit.

    The US falls out of this definition on two counts now.

    Let's continue.

    - headed by a dictatorial leader

    Nope. Just no. Even Trump on his worst day. Nope, nuh-uh. No way, Jose. No Chance, Lance. The President of the US is a powerful political figure. He is NOT a dictator. By definition, dictionary, legal, every day definition. He is the head of the executive branch. He "dictates" exactly one third of what exerts power in the US. And as we can see in Trump perfectly, he is checked and balanced just fine.

    Your claim now fails on three counts. Let's see how many more we'll find.

    - severe economic and social regimentation

    Do I need to talk you through this? If anything, the US suffers from a LACK of sensible regulation.

    Four counts.

    - and forcible suppression of opposition

    Ah, this one... surely. This is the whole reason why you're even talking about fascism. I know you weren't aware of it because your favourite blogshitpage doesn't walk you through concepts properly, but this is what your argument essentially boils down to.

    Forcible suppression of opposition. Which opposition would that be? Because, the two major parties are very much not oppressed. That is opposition in a political sense. Now, you're thinking about blacks, right? We're talking about politics, not social issues. But let's play along, my argument is that their opposition is to being oppressed. That is not what this is about. They are not oppressed for opposing the Government. They aren't being oppressed by the Government at all. And even if I let you have this one, WILD AND RIDICULOUS claim that the US Government actively pursues and oppresses the black man, by your own logic it is done because of their RACE not their political stance/opposition.

    By my count, this is strike number five.

    Even if I let the last one slide, the US doesn't fullfil four counts, anyone of which makes it impossible for you to apply the label to the US. And the last one is contentious and I could probably argue a solid case why it doesn't apply here.

    So no, the US is not fascist. I've just spent 20 minutes spelling this shit out for you that you ought to know yourself if you are at all interested in politics. So would you please cut the crap and address the issue instead of throwing buzzphrases around that you CLEARLY do not understand properly.
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  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    It's not. Never has been.
    WHOA THERE. I'm sorry man, but you are stunningly off the base right there. You need take a haaaaard fucking step back and consider that you are MASSIVELY missing the context.

    There's a lot to unpack in what you are missing.

    One, is that the popular perception of legality and fairness has exactly zero to do with what is morally just. Slavery was legal, and fair, according to most people up to a certain point in time. Segregation was legal and fair according to most people up to a certain point in time. Institutional racism, border concentration camps, private prisons, targeted repression of minority communities remains legal and fair according to a significant number of the population.

    What fascists do is that they gradually shift the Overton window in what is perceived as legal and fair. Nazis in Germany didn't start with Auschwitz. Auschwitz was the final inevitable conclusion of a gradual shift in the Overton window. The point of Antifa, even in its most radical incarnation is the recognition that without active resistance liberal democracy is simply ill equipped to halt the march of fascism due to the fascists willingness to use the mechanisms of liberal democracy to dismantle liberal democracy.

    Ironically, considering your position, modern Germany has come to the same exact conclusion, that's why Germany has things like hate speech laws. The US democracy lacks the mechanisms to protect itself from being dismantled from within.

    The second issue you are having is that you are engaging in a very narrow definition of what is fascism. I know you are not a fascist or have any sympathies of that sort, but fascism isn't just that authoritarian state thing like Augusto Pinochet or Mussolini or Francisco Franco. Fascism can take other forms, it's why fascism is such a fucking horribly difficult to pin down political ideology. A racist justice system/society might not be fascism from your point of view, if you are not on the receiving end of that racism.

    For the migrant child sitting in his own feces in a cage in a concentration camp the constitutionality of his situation is irrelevant. He's being treated like an animal by armed authoritarian thugs who are shielded from repercussion by the legality of what they are doing.

    The same applies to a black man in Baltimore, who had the misfortune to be born into a destitute red lined community (a ghetto), went to an underfunded school, and was in the prison system or worse probably by the time he was a teenager, being forced with millions of others of his racial and ethnic background to work for the benefit of a private prison system or a state. Nearly every interaction with the state and law enforcement carries a significant risk of death, bodily harm or unfair imprisonment. For him, the notion that the US isn't a fascist state is...frankly dumb. And this extends to other ethnic, racial, sexual orientation minorities.

    I would have to write a 900 page essay just to scratch the surface of how the US is both politically and institutionally heavily leaning towards fascism. And this is not a recent development, we were doing fascism before the word was invented.

    You are projecting a whole lot of modern Germany onto the US when the two are very distinct. This is a very strange hill for you to die on, just because you can't wrap your head around something like the necessity of Antifa in the US.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2021-02-02 at 05:33 PM.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    WHOA THERE. I'm sorry man, but you are stunningly off the base right there. You need take a haaaaard fucking step back and consider that you are MASSIVELY missing the context.

    There's a lot to unpack in what you are missing.

    One, is that the popular perception of legality and fairness has exactly zero to do with what is morally just. Slavery was legal, and fair, according to most people up to a certain point in time. Segregation was legal and fair according to most people up to a certain point in time. Institutional racism, border concentration camps, private prisons, targeted repression of minority communities remains legal and fair according to a significant number of the population.

    What fascists do is that they gradually shift the Overton window in what is perceived as legal and fair. Nazis in Germany didn't start with Auschwitz. Auschwitz was the final inevitable conclusion of a gradual shift in the Overton window. The point of Antifa, even in its most radical incarnation is the recognition that without active resistance liberal democracy is simply ill equipped to halt the march of fascism due to the fascists willingness to use the mechanisms of liberal democracy to dismantle liberal democracy.

    Ironically, considering your position, modern Germany has come to the same exact conclusion, that's why Germany has things like hate speech laws. The US democracy lacks the mechanisms to protect itself from being dismantled from within.

    The second issue you are having is that you are engaging in a very narrow definition of what is fascism. I know you are not a fascist or have any sympathies of that sort, but fascism isn't just that authoritarian state thing like Augusto Pinochet or Mussolini or Francisco Franco. Fascism can take other forms, it's why fascism is such a fucking horribly difficult to pin down political ideology. A racist justice system/society might not be fascism from your point of view, if you are not on the receiving end of that racism.

    For the migrant child sitting in his own feces in a cage in a concentration camp the constitutionality of his situation is irrelevant. He's being treated like an animal by armed authoritarian thugs who are shielded from repercussion by the legality of what they are doing.

    The same applies to a black man in Baltimore, who had the misfortune to be born into a destitute red lined community (a ghetto), went to an underfunded school, and was in the prison system or worse probably by the time he was a teenager, being forced with millions of others of his racial and ethnic background to work for the benefit of a private prison system or a state. Nearly every interaction with the state and law enforcement carries a significant risk of death, bodily harm or unfair imprisonment. For him, the notion that the US isn't a fascist state is...frankly dumb. And this extends to other ethnic, racial, sexual orientation minorities.

    I would have to write a 900 page essay just to scratch the surface of how the US is both politically and institutionally heavily leaning towards fascism. And this is not a recent development, we were doing fascism before the word was invented.

    You are projecting a whole lot of Germany onto the US when the two are very distinct.
    I know you get all kinds of tickled by WW2 and nazis, but you have got to let go of that topic. I'll point out when you're in danger of becoming Hitler Nation 2.0, rest assured. But if you read my response to the other dude, you'll see what fascism actually is and why the term actually does not apply to the US, actually. I'm not projecting anything, I'm just pointing out that you are using the wrong label, you are confused and distracting yourself from a very homegrown problem in the US by pretending it's not an all-Americal all-star convention of bad stuff happening.

    And I'd be careful arguing with me about German legislation, because while I'm happy to school you on your own constitution, I REALLY know German legal and historical context. That's not a rollercoaster ride you want to take with me. But I'm always happy to provide, so just feel free to test me...
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  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Forcible suppression of opposition. Which opposition would that be? Because, the two major parties are very much not oppressed. That is opposition in a political sense. Now, you're thinking about blacks, right? We're talking about politics, not social issues. But let's play along, my argument is that their opposition is to being oppressed. That is not what this is about. They are not oppressed for opposing the Government. They aren't being oppressed by the Government at all. And even if I let you have this one, WILD AND RIDICULOUS claim that the US Government actively pursues and oppresses the black man, by your own logic it is done because of their RACE not their political stance/opposition.

    By my count, this is strike number five.

    Even if I let the last one slide, the US doesn't fullfil four counts, anyone of which makes it impossible for you to apply the label to the US. And the last one is contentious and I could probably argue a solid case why it doesn't apply here.

    So no, the US is not fascist. I've just spent 20 minutes spelling this shit out for you that you ought to know yourself if you are at all interested in politics. So would you please cut the crap and address the issue instead of throwing buzzphrases around that you CLEARLY do not understand properly.
    1. The US actively suppresses black people to this day. Latinos too. Other races get a "pass" but only if they're polite to white people. Since the racist party (GOP) actively suppresses race they will also actively suppress the opposition party who people of colour typically vote for. Most GOP voting laws are passed to suppress Democrat voters specifically.

    2. The US is full of people who would like the idea of living under a fascist government. Even if the US government doesn't actively have most features of a fascist state in its present (or even past) forms, that doesn't mean there aren't people who want it and those people need to be dealt with.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    1. The US actively suppresses black people to this day. Latinos too. Other races get a "pass" but only if they're polite to white people. Since the racist party (GOP) actively suppresses race they will also actively suppress the opposition party who people of colour typically vote for. Most GOP voting laws are passed to suppress Democrat voters specifically.

    2. The US is full of people who would like the idea of living under a fascist government. Even if the US government doesn't actively have most features of a fascist state in its present (or even past) forms, that doesn't mean there aren't people who want it and those people need to be dealt with.
    1. No. You being very emotional about it all and thinking everything is so fucking unfair doesn't make it legal reality. Feel free to show me active laws that are still being enforced and not overthrown by the Supreme Court that actively discriminate against race, specifically against blacks or Latinos. Show me the legal regulation that gives other "races" a "pass". And only if they're polite to white people? Show me the party program for the GOP that describes them as a "racist" party. How are they suppressing the Democrats? The Democrats just won the election, they own congress. I mean, I think the GOP is a pretty incompetent bunch, but this is just beyond sucking at their job if their job is to oppress the opposition. It was a GOP Vice President that presided and ultimately approved the electoral count and made Biden's Presidency a legal reality. Man, they really, really suck at oppression.

    2. A country being "full" of people liking the idea of a fascist Government does not make a fascist Government. And let's be clear, the VERY VAST MAJORITY of US citizens do not want a fascist Government. We're talking 90% or so here. You grossly misrepresent the political landscape of the US because you ignore the big ass moderate center.

    You need to calm the fuck down and stop making shit up, otherwise you're making it too easy for the other side to dismiss you. You're just as crazy as the ultra-orthodox conservatives or alt-right dreaming up wild conspiracy theories about Jews ruling the world and trying to usurp the US with Mexicans so they can turn the US into a communist utopia...
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  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, let me have a go at this. I'll make this easy and take your definition:



    Let's remove some of the obvious waste and trim it down to what I think applies to our situation the best:

    - A political movement or regime

    Sure, the US is a political "regime" if you want to call it that in the sense that a regime is "a form of Government". I'd agree with this.

    - that exalts nation and often race above the individual

    Now, we're talking about plain nationalism here. While I'm the first to accuse Americans of drowning in their own nationalism, I know for a fact that most US Americans view themselves as strong individuals and living in a country that promotes their individualism. This is evidenced by the fact that the US does not have a federal identification system like an ID card that is required by law to be owned by every US citizen. It is further evidenced by the catalogue of civil liberties strengthening specifically the individual's rights and freedoms against the state.

    I would strongly disagree with this point applying to the US. If nothing else, the second amendment very much gives the individual the legitimised power to overthrow a tyrannical Government. While I'm not familiar with the details of the legal discussion, I am fairly certain the question of whether or not this applies only to external Governments or the US Government itself is still open for debate.

    As far as race goes, I've kept that in because I wanted to make a point of it. The official position of the US Governement is that all men are created equal. BY DEFINITION the US already falls out of the pattern for "fascist" on this point. You have lost the debate.

    But let's continue for funsies:

    - A centralized autocratic Government

    The US is a federal democracy. The way I understand the political system, the original plan was to have pretty much all authority lie with the state Governments. The Federal Government has assumed more and more of these authorities, so if I wanted to be nice to you, I'd even let you have the "centralised" part.

    If I was having a bad day, I'd point out the relative independence of the 50 states to you. The fact that the US has codified division of power in the executive, legislative and judiciary branch with oversight and control... what you guys call checks and balances.

    If nothing else, this item is negative simply because the US is not an autocracy. There is no ABSOLUTE POWER for the US Government. An Autocracy by definition requires an absolute, centralised form of Government. The US does NOT have that. Not even a little bit.

    The US falls out of this definition on two counts now.

    Let's continue.

    - headed by a dictatorial leader

    Nope. Just no. Even Trump on his worst day. Nope, nuh-uh. No way, Jose. No Chance, Lance. The President of the US is a powerful political figure. He is NOT a dictator. By definition, dictionary, legal, every day definition. He is the head of the executive branch. He "dictates" exactly one third of what exerts power in the US. And as we can see in Trump perfectly, he is checked and balanced just fine.

    Your claim now fails on three counts. Let's see how many more we'll find.

    - severe economic and social regimentation

    Do I need to talk you through this? If anything, the US suffers from a LACK of sensible regulation.

    Four counts.

    - and forcible suppression of opposition

    Ah, this one... surely. This is the whole reason why you're even talking about fascism. I know you weren't aware of it because your favourite blogshitpage doesn't walk you through concepts properly, but this is what your argument essentially boils down to.

    Forcible suppression of opposition. Which opposition would that be? Because, the two major parties are very much not oppressed. That is opposition in a political sense. Now, you're thinking about blacks, right? We're talking about politics, not social issues. But let's play along, my argument is that their opposition is to being oppressed. That is not what this is about. They are not oppressed for opposing the Government. They aren't being oppressed by the Government at all. And even if I let you have this one, WILD AND RIDICULOUS claim that the US Government actively pursues and oppresses the black man, by your own logic it is done because of their RACE not their political stance/opposition.

    By my count, this is strike number five.

    Even if I let the last one slide, the US doesn't fullfil four counts, anyone of which makes it impossible for you to apply the label to the US. And the last one is contentious and I could probably argue a solid case why it doesn't apply here.

    So no, the US is not fascist. I've just spent 20 minutes spelling this shit out for you that you ought to know yourself if you are at all interested in politics. So would you please cut the crap and address the issue instead of throwing buzzphrases around that you CLEARLY do not understand properly.
    I love how people from other countries are going to tell me what its like in my own country.

    Once again, if you are a BLACK AMERICAN, that definition is on the money. You not being able to understand or relate to that has no bearing on the truth of it.

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