View Poll Results: Should they be labeled as a terrorist organization?

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  • No [I'm Conservative]

    8 13.33%
  • Yes [I'm Liberal]

    33 55.00%
  • Yes [I'm Conservative]

    2 3.33%
  • No [I'm Liberal]

    17 28.33%
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  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    Like the term racism and sexism I think people are starting to throw the term terrorist and terrorism around too loosely now. What should we call BLM and ANTIFA since they were the ones "peacefully protesting" by setting fires and destroying property, defacing historical monuments, and harrassing innocent people on the streets? These are also the people who are nominated for Nobel Peace prize. What kind of peace did these people make?

    So not that I'm defending qanon but when have you seen any of them march in the streets causing chaos and destruction like the ANTIFA and BLM rioters have? No one seems to want to put any accountability on them because they're black and oppressed.

    Also where's people's proof that this qanon organization/group or whatever "incited" this violence? They've already caught some BLM/antifa people down there. Videos were shown of some handing out weapons to other people and some actually putting on Trump shirts and hats and posing as Trump supporters but you never hear of them. Must be a "conspiracy theory" too I guess since everything that isn't a liberal/democrat opinion is these days.
    You might have the beginnings of a point with regards to Antifa, but your inclusion of BLM in there demonstrates that you yourself are a radical extremist who opposes racial equity and justice, ideologically. BLM is not responsible for rioting or property destruction. That's a simple fact, and your attempt to blame them is meritless.

    While some such violence happened at a tiny fraction of BLM protests, it was largely instigated by right-wing counter-protestors, by the police themselves, or by criminals using the protest as a cover.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    So not that I'm defending qanon
    Your entire post certainly reads otherwise.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post

    So not that I'm defending qanon (I honestly don't even know a lot about them only that they're this group of radical conspiracy nuts liberals and democrats keep talking about) but when have you seen any of them march in the streets causing chaos and destruction like the ANTIFA and BLM rioters have? No one on the left seems to want to put any accountability on them because they're black and oppressed.
    I think you need to be careful about distinguishing between BLM and Antifa. And I would also like to point out that most of the rioting that I saw was Antifa, I even saw black protesters telling Antifa types to leave (this was really early on), they didn't want their help, I presume this is because they know what it would end up looking like. And in most of the footage I saw of questionable behaviour by BLM protesters, it was overwhelmingly white people, many of whom I suspect turn out for Antifa. Just as Antifa is overwhelmingly white people (a good chunk of those I reckon could just as easily show up for a proud boys rally, e.g. it is just an excuse to wreck stuff).

    Now this isn't to say that I have saw footage of all the riots, I admit this, but the picture I got was that it wasn't mainly black people wrecking stuff, it was mainly white people. And I share your annoyance at the gaslighting and hand waving that goes on in large parts of the left with regards to Antifa, and part of me is glad to see this come apart a little bit in the lights of BLM protests, that we have on video BLM people telling Antifa types to go away (I was so glad and relieved to see this happen), it is harder for their apologists to dismiss their behaviour as a far right moral panic or as pro fascism (the amount of morons who argue that because they are called anti fascist, it means everything they do must be good, simply because of the name is astounding), and have been forced in some cases to acknowledge that some of the tactics and antics of Antifa are actually rather damaging, or at least to tone down some of the gaslighting. This is mainly because they see BLM as having moral superiority, so they can't just write them off as far right nutters. That many in BLM see what many on the moderate left (and others) see when looking at Antifa is a credit to the BLM movement and is a hammerblow to the foundational claims of their apologists that criticism of Antifa is evidence of being a Nazi, they simply cannot use this tactic in the same way they did as that would mean telling BLM people that they are supporting Nazis. I am just hoping it wakes more people up, that following a group of extremists and anarchists maybe isn't the best, or only way, to be against fascism. And certainly that to be against QAnon (I genuinely don't know whether to laugh or be afraid of them, a bit of both I suppose), you don't need to be a violent anarchist.

    I would also say there is a difference between the movement of BLM and the organisation. The organisation had some really out there stuff on their web site in relation to their end goals, some of which I think were taken down as it certainly raised some eyebrows (the whole abolishing the nuclear family stuff was certainly out there). Some of the big picture ideas I can get behind (police brutality and accountability, racialised legal systems etc), but you don't need to support the organisation to support the movement. Some of those involved in the organisation are Marxists and want to promote a form of Marxism (a party, I can't remember if directly representing, or just inspired by, was in the process of being formed in the UK, not sure where they got to, but they had some heavy Marxist shit in their manifesto), however I suspect most supporters of the movement and on the street aren't, and you certainly don't need to be a fan of Marx to support the big picture ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  4. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehealadin View Post
    I think you need to be careful about distinguishing between BLM and Antifa. And I would also like to point out that most of the rioting that I saw was Antifa, I even saw black protesters telling Antifa types to leave (this was really early on), they didn't want their help, I presume this is because they know what it would end up looking like. And in most of the footage I saw of questionable behaviour by BLM protesters, it was overwhelmingly white people, many of whom I suspect turn out for Antifa. Just as Antifa is overwhelmingly white people (a good chunk of those I reckon could just as easily show up for a proud boys rally, e.g. it is just an excuse to wreck stuff).

    Now this isn't to say that I have saw footage of all the riots, I admit this, but the picture I got was that it wasn't mainly black people wrecking stuff, it was mainly white people. And I share your annoyance at the gaslighting and hand waving that goes on in large parts of the left with regards to Antifa, and part of me is glad to see this come apart a little bit in the lights of BLM protests, that we have on video BLM people telling Antifa types to go away (I was so glad and relieved to see this happen), it is harder for their apologists to dismiss their behaviour as a far right moral panic or as pro fascism (the amount of morons who argue that because they are called anti fascist, it means everything they do must be good, simply because of the name is astounding), and have been forced in some cases to acknowledge that some of the tactics and antics of Antifa are actually rather damaging, or at least to tone down some of the gaslighting. This is mainly because they see BLM as having moral superiority, so they can't just write them off as far right nutters. That many in BLM see what many on the moderate left (and others) see when looking at Antifa is a credit to the BLM movement and is a hammerblow to the foundational claims of their apologists that criticism of Antifa is evidence of being a Nazi, they simply cannot use this tactic in the same way they did as that would mean telling BLM people that they are supporting Nazis. I am just hoping it wakes more people up, that following a group of extremists and anarchists maybe isn't the best, or only way, to be against fascism. And certainly that to be against QAnon (I genuinely don't know whether to laugh or be afraid of them, a bit of both I suppose), you don't need to be a violent anarchist.

    I would also say there is a difference between the movement of BLM and the organisation. The organisation had some really out there stuff on their web site in relation to their end goals, some of which I think were taken down as it certainly raised some eyebrows (the whole abolishing the nuclear family stuff was certainly out there). Some of the big picture ideas I can get behind (police brutality and accountability, racialised legal systems etc), but you don't need to support the organisation to support the movement. Some of those involved in the organisation are Marxists and want to promote a form of Marxism (a party, I can't remember if directly representing, or just inspired by, was in the process of being formed in the UK, not sure where they got to, but they had some heavy Marxist shit in their manifesto), however I suspect most supporters of the movement and on the street aren't, and you certainly don't need to be a fan of Marx to support the big picture ideas.
    Since you seem to be the only reasonable person to respond to which is refreshing to see honestly I'll reply to you. I'll agree with the point that it wasn't ALL BLM just like the capitol raid wasn't ALL Trump supporters but everyone on the left side seem to think so and go as far as to even call all of them "terrorists". I'll even go as far to say that at one point I might've supported BLM in that they were being racially discriminated against by the few bad apples in the police department but they completely changed from a group promoting racial equality to racial superiority where every white person is racist and deserves to be treated as a lesser human being as a way to "get revenge". But I'm glad there is at least someone out there who supports some of BLM's ideas but also sees the bullshit going on. Sees both sides of the coin. If only there were more people like you.

    A little off topic but what gets me though is that the left accuses the right of just being a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists and terrorists but they seem to forget for 4 years they were accusing Trump of colluding with Russia and impeached him for it all with no evidence (to which he was found innocent). That wasn't a conspiracy? How about for 4 years they kept calling Trump an illegitimate president refusing to accept the results but when obvious questionable activity happens in the 2020 election they're the ones telling everybody who questions the results to accept them and shut up and deal with it. Not only that but they call them terrorists and want to actually strip their freedom of speech away because it doesn't go along with the mainstream narrative. Then they sit there and say this is democracy. What kind of democracy silences people with different opinions? That's straight up communist tactics (China). Saying if you don't believe in our opinions then you're an enemy who has to be dealt with. It's scary to be honest. All because it somehow "incites violence" and is "harmful" to the American people by questioning the election results. Because you know the government are the ones to decide what is good and what is bad for you. What you should be allowed to read/watch and what you shouldn't be allowed to read/watch. And they want to accuse conservatives as being radical? I mean the hypocrisy is strong with the left.
    - "If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black" - Jo Bodin, BLM supporter
    - "I got hairy legs that turn blonde in the sun. The kids used to come up and reach in the pool & rub my leg down so it was straight & watch the hair come back up again. So I learned about roaches, I learned about kids jumping on my lap, and I love kids jumping on my lap...” - Pedo Joe

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    Since you seem to be the only reasonable person to respond to which is refreshing to see honestly I'll reply to you. I'll agree with the point that it wasn't ALL BLM just like the capitol raid wasn't ALL Trump supporters but everyone on the left side seem to think so and go as far as to even call all of them "terrorists". I'll even go as far to say that at one point I might've supported BLM in that they were being racially discriminated against by the few bad apples in the police department but they completely changed from a group promoting racial equality to racial superiority where every white person is racist and deserves to be treated as a lesser human being as a way to "get revenge". But I'm glad there is at least someone out there who supports some of BLM's ideas but also sees the bullshit going on. Sees both sides of the coin. If only there were more people like you.

    A little off topic but what gets me though is that the left accuses the right of just being a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists and terrorists but they seem to forget for 4 years they were accusing Trump of colluding with Russia and impeached him for it all with no evidence (to which he was found innocent). That wasn't a conspiracy? How about for 4 years they kept calling Trump an illegitimate president refusing to accept the results but when obvious questionable activity happens in the 2020 election they're the ones telling everybody who questions the results to accept them and shut up and deal with it. Not only that but they call them terrorists and want to actually strip their freedom of speech away because it doesn't go along with the mainstream narrative. Then they sit there and say this is democracy. What kind of democracy silences people with different opinions? That's straight up communist tactics (China). Saying if you don't believe in our opinions then you're an enemy who has to be dealt with. It's scary to be honest. All because it somehow "incites violence" and is "harmful" to the American people by questioning the election results. Because you know the government are the ones to decide what is good and what is bad for you. What you should be allowed to read/watch and what you shouldn't be allowed to read/watch. And they want to accuse conservatives as being radical? I mean the hypocrisy is strong with the left.
    Not one single thing you said in this wall of text is accurate.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    Since you seem to be the only reasonable person to respond to which is refreshing to see honestly I'll reply to you. I'll agree with the point that it wasn't ALL BLM just like the capitol raid wasn't ALL Trump supporters but everyone on the left side seem to think so and go as far as to even call all of them "terrorists". I'll even go as far to say that at one point I might've supported BLM in that they were being racially discriminated against by the few bad apples in the police department but they completely changed from a group promoting racial equality to racial superiority where every white person is racist and deserves to be treated as a lesser human being as a way to "get revenge". But I'm glad there is at least someone out there who supports some of BLM's ideas but also sees the bullshit going on. Sees both sides of the coin. If only there were more people like you.

    A little off topic but what gets me though is that the left accuses the right of just being a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists and terrorists but they seem to forget for 4 years they were accusing Trump of colluding with Russia and impeached him for it all with no evidence (to which he was found innocent). That wasn't a conspiracy? How about for 4 years they kept calling Trump an illegitimate president refusing to accept the results but when obvious questionable activity happens in the 2020 election they're the ones telling everybody who questions the results to accept them and shut up and deal with it. Not only that but they call them terrorists and want to actually strip their freedom of speech away because it doesn't go along with the mainstream narrative. Then they sit there and say this is democracy. What kind of democracy silences people with different opinions? That's straight up communist tactics (China). Saying if you don't believe in our opinions then you're an enemy who has to be dealt with. It's scary to be honest. All because it somehow "incites violence" and is "harmful" to the American people by questioning the election results. Because you know the government are the ones to decide what is good and what is bad for you. What you should be allowed to read/watch and what you shouldn't be allowed to read/watch. And they want to accuse conservatives as being radical? I mean the hypocrisy is strong with the left.
    Wrong and Cope.
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  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by TheramoreIsTheBomb View Post
    QAnon has incited things other than the recent insurrection but as far as labelling the Parkland shooting as a "false flag" and as well as taking children from orphanages, pizza parlors such as Comet Pizza and Pizza Hut, barbershops, some luxury retail stores/brand such as Offwhite and child care in fear of them being involved in sex trafficking. Some bombs were found the other day along with ammo to be used. This stuff has gone too far. Should Joe Biden & admin label them officially as a domestic terror organization?
    qanon is not an organization, it is a conspiracy theory that a group of disorganized people just believe.

    There is no leader, there are no cells, there is no funding, there is nothing because it is just a conspiracy theory.

    It is not a terrorist organization because it is not an organization. There may be people who simply believe that reptilian people eat babies and dominate the world and that is not why they can be classified as a terrorist group.

    If I believe that an effort should be made to educate the people of the South, ignorance and inbreeding is the main problem
    Last edited by Rhlor; 2021-02-06 at 08:13 PM.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    that they were being racially discriminated against by the few bad apples in the police department but they completely changed from a group promoting racial equality
    I am not even sure that some of the incidents, especially the large trigger incidents were explicitly about racial discrimination to be honest. Do we have confirmation that the George Floyd killing was because he was black? I appreciate how sensitive this still is. I also appreciate that for much of US history, we could be certain that an incident like this had a very real racial motivation. I know this will upset some, however I think the claim that things have improved in US policing with regards to race is not an unreasonable one. However given the history that black people in the US have had, I understand why they would default to a racial motive, historically this has been the right assumption to make. I have seen slight variations on the narrative, that this is primarily about race, or that it is primarily about police brutality and a lack of accountability in general. Given that this shit happens to white people, I personally think the latter is how it should be looked at, and more likely to result in action, however I can't blame black people for being very suspicious and feeling uniquely victimised, as historically they have been. I mean, I am not woke, but only someone ignorant of history can argue against that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    to racial superiority where every white person is racist and deserves to be treated as a lesser human being as a way to "get revenge".
    I have to say that I am not totally seeing what you are seeing, at least not as strongly. I have seen and heard some who are clearly racial supremacists and who want something akin to racial revenge. I can't say that I have witnessed much of this however, and again most of what I have seen has been from usually middle class white people with extreme cases of white guilt. Like the white people who were bowing before black people and shining their shoes as a display of submission. I am not convinced that the majority of BLM supporting black people want this- they want a change to policing and police accountability. Same when several media companies jumped the gun, nuking episodes or even entire shows from their online catalogues. As best as I could tell, hardly anyone, if indeed any at all, were asking for this.

    I have heard of cases in some places, such as Portland, where people who are supposedly BLM supporters were basically shaking down businesses, as well as demanding white home owners gift their homes to black people etc. I have seen some footage of these kinds of antics. I only saw a few bits of this, it was pretty much all white people as far as I could remember. As to them being BLM, that is much harder to determine, especially in places like Portland where Antifa types have been highly active for years, I suppose this is one of the drawbacks of decentralised movements, anyone can fly the banner. I am more inclined to put this down to crazy white people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    A little off topic but what gets me though is that the left accuses the right of just being a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists and terrorists but they seem to forget for 4 years they were accusing Trump of colluding with Russia and impeached him for it all with no evidence (to which he was found innocent). That wasn't a conspiracy?
    I think some of the reaction to the 2016 election poisoned the waters. Regardless of FB ads and Russian attempts at interfering, as you said Trump got cleared (though I don't think he is as clean as his supporters think), and I have yet to see compelling evidence that Russian bots on FB can have a meaningful impact on electoral outcomes. And I agree that some have a cheek in slamming Trumpsters for not accepting the election results when they couldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    How about for 4 years they kept calling Trump an illegitimate president refusing to accept the results but when obvious questionable activity happens in the 2020 election
    You will need to enlighten me on that one. What was the suspicious activity? I can't say I have went and deeply investigated any of Trump's claims, mainly because I inherently don't trust him. If I am right in thinking he had someone investigate, they found no evidence, he fired the guy. I find it far more likely that there was no dodgy activity and that he just wanted to cling to power by any means he could. I find it hard to believe when no courts have backed up his claims. So I am not sure that there is a direct comparison in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    Not only that but they call them terrorists
    I am not 100% on what things you are referring to, but it is worth noting that a mob stormed the Capitol and murdered a police officer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    All because it somehow "incites violence" and is "harmful" to the American people by questioning the election results. Because you know the government are the ones to decide what is good and what is bad for you. What you should be allowed to read/watch and what you shouldn't be allowed to read/watch. And they want to accuse conservatives as being radical? I mean the hypocrisy is strong with the left.
    In regards to Trump, I think he has a case to answer for incitement. I would argue that refusing to accept election results with what are so far baseless accusations are harmful to democracy. I would say just as some on the left did when Trump won in 2016. Though I do think they have a stronger claim when it comes to interference, he was cleared of directly colluding but we do know that the Russians were trying to interfere. I just question how effective it really was. So I don't think it was as bad in 2016 as their claims had a much stronger foundation.

    As for the government deciding what is good or bad for people, I am not 100% sure where you are going with that one, until very recently Trump was still the president, it was still his government, are you conflating tech platform policy with government policy? I have a degree of sympathy with the tech platforms, and to be honest I am conflicted. I think Trump was dangerous, I think there is a strong case for incitement, and the tech companies wanted to cover their arses and not allow it on their platforms, I totally see the sense in this. On a wider note though, it does worry me the power that unelected private companies have when it comes to gatekeeping public discourse. Given the monopoly a few companies have, and the importance of the online space, I don't buy the "its a private company bruh, they can do what they like" argument some like to use selectively when they shut up people they don't like, I think an honest debate needs to be had about the power they now have.

    I would also say that some on the left being radical doesn't mean the right can't have it, clearly both sides do. You have someone trying to impeach Biden before he has even done anything. You have people in the Republican party spreading QAnon bullshit. There are plenty of valid criticisms to be made against the more insane right wingers. That isn't to say that the left doesn't have its crazies, it certainly does (they annoy me more because I am on the left and I think certain characters, within formal politics and in the wider media are toxic to left causes), though as I have said for a while, they worry me far less, at least at this moment in time, as I think their capacity for harm isn't as great.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gelannerai View Post


    Remember, legally no one sane takes Tucker Carlson seriously.

  9. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    Like the term racism and sexism I think people are starting to throw the term terrorist and terrorism around too loosely now.
    If going into a parliament building using violence and destruction to seek to intimidate/threaten the politicians into acting in a specific way does not count as terrorism then i am unsure if anything does..

  10. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grubenwolf View Post
    Since you seem to be the only reasonable person to respond to which is refreshing to see honestly I'll reply to you. I'll agree with the point that it wasn't ALL BLM just like the capitol raid wasn't ALL Trump supporters
    It wasn't BLM at all.

    Meanwhile, the January 6th insurrection was pretty much 100% Trump supporters.

    but everyone on the left side seem to think so and go as far as to even call all of them "terrorists".
    If they were part of the group that violently assaulted the Capitol on January 6th? Yes. They were domestic terrorists. Definitively. They were domestic, rather than foreign. And they were seeking to effect political change through the use of fear and intimidation by way of use of force and violence. Literally terrorism.

    I'll even go as far to say that at one point I might've supported BLM in that they were being racially discriminated against by the few bad apples in the police department but they completely changed from a group promoting racial equality to racial superiority where every white person is racist and deserves to be treated as a lesser human being as a way to "get revenge".
    Literally none of that is true. It's white supremacist fearmongering, nothing more.

    Speaking as a white person who's never been attacked by anyone among BLM, either in person or on the Internet, nor been called racist just for being white. That shit is imaginary nonsense you are making up.

    A little off topic but what gets me though is that the left accuses the right of just being a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists and terrorists but they seem to forget for 4 years they were accusing Trump of colluding with Russia and impeached him for it all with no evidence (to which he was found innocent).
    Collusion was proven. Not by Trump personally, but by multiple people who were part of his campaign. It's all in the Mueller Report.
    The first impeachment wasn't even about collusion.
    And Trump was found guilty in that impeachment. The House proceedings determines guilt or innocence. The Senate proceedings determine sentence.

    That wasn't a conspiracy?
    Not even a little bit, no. In fact, claiming it's a conspiracy inherently requires you to be pushing a conspiracy theory. Irony.

    How about for 4 years they kept calling Trump an illegitimate president refusing to accept the results
    Didn't happen, outside of some random nobodies screaming into the void. There was never any support for the idea that the 2016 election was illegitimate, and Democrats never contested the results.

    but when obvious questionable activity happens in the 2020 election
    That's a straight-up lie. There was no such "questionable activity".

    Not only that but they call them terrorists and want to actually strip their freedom of speech away because it doesn't go along with the mainstream narrative.
    No one's freedom of speech has been attacked.

    No one has even been attacked because they didn't go along with the "mainstream narrative".

    You are again making shit up.

    Then they sit there and say this is democracy. What kind of democracy silences people with different opinions? That's straight up communist tactics (China).
    It also did not happen at any point during this election. In fact, the only people who've made arguments that could have led to free speech concerns was Trump and the Republicans, in their attacks on the media. Nobody has been "silenced". Stop making shit up.

    Saying if you don't believe in our opinions then you're an enemy who has to be dealt with. It's scary to be honest.
    Republicans have been using that language to describe Democrats for decades.

    All because it somehow "incites violence" and is "harmful" to the American people by questioning the election results. Because you know the government are the ones to decide what is good and what is bad for you. What you should be allowed to read/watch and what you shouldn't be allowed to read/watch. And they want to accuse conservatives as being radical? I mean the hypocrisy is strong with the left.
    Nothing you've brought up here has been real. It's all been some flavour of disinformation, propaganda, persecution complex, and fearmongering. It's a distorted fiction, not reality. That's what makes those who believe it "radical".

    It isn't even that you're conservative, because there are plenty of conservatives who don't believe these delusions.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Fascism != Holocaust. I mean, I want to comment on that, but I can't, cos fucking @Rozz is going to ban me if I talk to you any longer. Instead, I'll have fucking @Rozz explain to you why they are not the same and why the basis of your post is ludicrous. Go ahead @Rozz, explain that shit to him...
    Uh excuse me? You were one who asserted that what makes fascism fascism is by the number of victims at the hands of authoritarianism, and I contested that.

    So if the basis of my post is ludicrous then maybe you should reflect on what you said, because I was only referring to what you said.

    Like, are you even okay? Am I talking to someone who has a problem with split personalities?
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  12. #332
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    Going to close this now, as discussion is just bouncing between topics that are either forbidden or inappropriate.
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