Should QAnon be labeled as a terrorist organization?

[Antiganon]

I don't honestly believe that was the motive. It's like when I poke fun at BLM wanting to just loot and commit arson sure a good chunk of them were bad actors but most of them were peaceful protesters.

They planted bombs in the Capitol and DNC headquarters. There are photographs of armed "protestors" with zip tie hand cuffs on their belts. They built a fucking gallows and called for the hangings of Pence, Pelosi, and others.

No, they weren't intending to hurt anyone though, strictly peaceful protest.

[Endus]

They planted bombs in the Capitol and DNC headquarters. There are photographs of armed "protestors" with zip tie hand cuffs on their belts. They built a fucking gallows and called for the hangings of Pence, Pelosi, and others.

No, they weren't intending to hurt anyone though, strictly peaceful protest.

Also beheadings of those they disagree with.

And for everyone who's gonna argue "that was just SOME of them", the rest sure had no problems whatsoever standing shoulder to shoulder with these violent lunatics as they screamed their intent into microphones and on video. Everyone there knew this violent intent was prevalent, because it was very loud and overt.

If you're in a bank and you see a guy start shouting that he's gonna kill everyone unless he gets the money, and your response is to jump up next to him and shout "Yeah! Give us all the money or die!" Congrats, you're a violent bank robber and complicit in the crime. Even if you're just jumping in opportunistically.

[Slant]

The difference is that you can separately judge them socially for the validity of their rhetoric. On which scale QAnon types are crazy for cocoa buffs and deserve nothing but derision, but Antifa have a really good point in opposing fascism. It's the difference between "crazy-ass nonsense you'd have to be an idiot to fall for" and "a really solid, justifiable argument, on which action is taken too far."

For me it's much simpler. Sure, ideologically antifa's stance of being literally anti-fascist is probably beyond criticism. But if you smash windows, you broke the rules and have to face the consequences. And I don't care why you broke the window or why you ran a car over someone. The story ends there for me. The stupid bickering of who smashed the window more angry couldn't concern me less.

But then, apparently I'm not getting it. I can't even take these alt-right people serious. If you're asking me for my honest opinion, they're a bunch of anarchist kids who like to play with fire and have absolutely no concept of what it actually means. I would say the same for antifa, but when you talk to them, their point of opposing a fascist idea is probably not the worst cause you can have. Their problem, however, is that they blur the lines and think everyone's a fascist who's not agreeing with them. At least in Germany. And of course they - just like the alt-right imbeciles - have militant blocs that there is just no talking with.

What is hard to get into their brains, either side, is that they are a tiny, yet very disruptive, minority in society and everyone else would rather both of them just shut up and learn to function in the real world for a change. I don't need the news of a dude driving over a dozen people at a rally with his dumbass redneck car. Neither do I need my local shopping mall being in rubble because someone decided that since a big bank sponsored the foyer decorations, it's a sign of wall street corruption and needs to be shattered.

And of course my general being offended at people just being stupid and insulting my intelligence with the most inane bullshit they rip off third-party blogshitpages and expect me to take them seriously. Which I try sometimes, but it's so much time invested into trying to understand their crazy so you can get at the argument from an angle their tiny minds can understand.

@QAnon fans, leftists and miscellaneous conspiracy nutters: Yes, that was me being condescending. I don't give a shit, deal with it.

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Except as far as everyone is aware, Antifa doesn't have a leader, but Qcumbers have a leader, and we know who they are now.

QAnon is one militant block. Antifa has the black bloc as well in Germany. If you want to talk about antifa, you need to talk about the alt-right or whatever fancy name they give themselves this week in the US, not just QAnon. Don't let them dictate what you're discussing. If they muddle the waters, you need to make sure everyone understands what the topic is. It's either the black bloc/QAnon (both very, very criminal groups) or it's antifa/alt-right... where the shade is more of a grey blob of bad taste rather than the rather binary "Did you just attack/invade and occupy the seat of Government of the US or not?"

Sorry, I just made life more difficult for you, but there you go, stuff is complicated and simple answers are usually not as helpful as people initially think.

[Adam Jensen]

Also beheadings of those they disagree with.

And for everyone who's gonna argue "that was just SOME of them", the rest sure had no problems whatsoever standing shoulder to shoulder with these violent lunatics as they screamed their intent into microphones and on video.

There is a dinner party. Ten people are dining. 7 of them are proud and loud Nazis. Everyone knows this. How many Nazis are dining?

Ten.

If you're not disavowing the dangerous and vile men within your social or political groups, you're one of them.

[Ihavewaffles]

It's not an organization, there's no unity amongst conspiracy theorists for the simple reason they see conspiracies amongst themselves, they can't agree cuz they distrust each other as being fake.
If they didn't, they wouldn't be conspiracy theorists in the first place.

[Dezerte]

Seems pointless. Similar to how labelling Antifa a terrorist organization would be (I'm of course not blind to the fact that many people get falsely labelled as Antifa in the US but that is another topic).

From what I've seen and heard, there are many beliefs that they profess - some ideas might be deemed crazy by one QAnon but not another QAnon. QAnons are just straight crazypants-town, it's not just another political view but a whole different fantasy world they live in.

[Mihalik]

sip

Right, so the thing is, not all forms of political violence are equally bad.


Scenario 1. Kristalnacht.
Scenario 2. The Romanian Revolution of 1989 (a relatively recent event in a European nation.)

Both were politically motivated, both were bloody and messy events, and both had public murders.

One produced a genocidal regime that lead to a war that rampaged across the world and killed hundreds of millions.

The other produced (after much pain) a functioning and stable democracy with a multi ethnic state with a fairly decent future outlook. That's after the televised execution of a dictator and his wife and nation wide violence, looting and destruction of public and private property.

There is a point where political violence is ultimately not just acceptable but necessary.

Punch the fascist loudmouth today so he can't put you and millions of others into death camps tomorrow.

Create havock in the streets to force institutional reform today before the police and justice system become extensions of your local Nazi party.

The past 4 years the US has become uncomfortably close to sliding down on the slippery slope of fascism and action had to be taken, in some cases radical action to oppose public displays of radicalism and to at least force some law enforcement and local governance reforms.

I don't know if you have noticed, but the severity of Antifa's actions is directly proportional to the scale of the imminent threat (at least in the US). Police killings, Fascist public displays like Charlottesville (I'd argue the Unite the Right rally, even without the car rampage was an act of political violence meant to intimidate and to normalize public displays of fascism and white supremacy) triggered the most virulent reactions.

That one sad lone Trump supporter who made it to pro Trump rally on inauguration day wasn't swamped and beaten senseless, nor did rioters trash the national mall demanding police reform.

It's very easy to get rid of Antifa. Get rid of the fascists.

[Felya]

It's not an organization, there's no unity amongst conspiracy theorists for the simple reason they see conspiracies amongst themselves, they can't agree cuz they distrust each other as being fake.
If they didn't, they wouldn't be conspiracy theorists in the first place.

You are making shit up... Do they magically appear at dodgers stadium yesterday, to halt vaccine distribution? They magically, without agreement, just appeared there? Their social media asking those who gathered to not mention Trump or Q, so they pass for normies, also not organized?

They shut down vaccine distribution for an hour...

[Ihavewaffles]

You are making shit up... Do they magically appear at dodgers stadium yesterday, to halt vaccine distribution? They magically, without agreement, just appeared there? Their social media asking those who gathered to not mention Trump or Q, so they pass for normies, also not organized?

They shut down vaccine distribution for an hour...

Aren't u the ones who denies antifa being an organization? If organizing some shit is all it takes then antifa isn't just an idea if one goes by ur description.

[Bodakane]

Q is not an organization. Its soul crushingly stupid, but its not an organization.

All these white guy militias? They are organizations and they should be classified as terrorists.

We can't fall down the stupid Trump hole and just name random things terrorist organizations, like they did with antfa.

[Felya]

Aren't u the ones who denies antifa being an organization? If organizing some shit is all it takes then antifa isn't just an idea if one goes by ur description.

Uhm... Organizing some shit? Where is Antifa staging protests against vaccines? Are the conspiracy theories these people follow, just a logical conclusion based on real world experience?

The idea that government is going fascist, with expanding authoritarianism, is a logical conclusion anyone can come to. The idea that Gates and Clinton’s are putting micro chips, that do no exist in our reality, into vaccines... is not an idea you just independently reach. You are told... being told, requires leadership, to be told what to think.

- - - Updated - - -

We can't fall down the stupid Trump hole and just name random things terrorist organizations, like they did with antfa.

What rabbit hole? Classifying QAnon as a terrorist organization, would inhibit their ability to organize. If they are not an organized group as they claim... what’s lost? They will just get new members, because it’s a logical conclusion that everyone can come to with enouph research? With enough research QAnon will gain members, because anyone can tell JFK jr was a hidden agent that trusted Trump with the future of America... do your research...

[Bodakane]

What rabbit hole? Classifying QAnon as a terrorist organization, would inhibit their ability to organize. If they are not an organized group as they claim... what’s lost? They will just get new members, because it’s a logical conclusion that everyone can come to with enouph research? With enough research QAnon will gain members, because anyone can tell JFK jr was a hidden agent that trusted Trump with the future of America... do your research...

They aren't organizing. The militias and the Proud Boys, etc, are the ones organizing, go after them and go after them hard. QAnon isn't an organization just like antifa isn't. The repubs started this shit with War on Terror.....we have to stop the nebulous crap and go after the concrete things....like Proud Boys or the Bundys for example.

[Felya]

They aren't organizing. The militias and the Proud Boys, etc, are the ones organizing, go after them and go after them hard. QAnon isn't an organization just like antifa isn't. The repubs started this shit with War on Terror.....we have to stop the nebulous crap and go after the concrete things....like Proud Boys for example.

How about we meet in the middle... They make QAnon a terrorist organization, so they can catch QAnon militias, while leaving the law abiding ones alone? Switching targets to be more generic, doesn’t help your point...

Also, unless you are willing to claim that democrats are coming for white people... I’d suggest not using ‘Republicans started’ in this context. There is no white people ban, to stop QAnon terrorist, until we figure out what’s going on.

[Bodakane]

How about we meet in the middle... They make QAnon a terrorist organization, so they can catch QAnon militias, while leaving the law abiding ones alone? Switching targets to be more generic, doesn’t help your point...

Also, unless you are willing to claim that democrats are coming for white people... I’d suggest not using ‘Republicans started’ in this context. There is no white people ban, to stop QAnon terrorist, until we figure out what’s going on.

Yeah no.

What you're doing is like being angry about the systemic pedophilia of Catholic priests so you want to go after "Christianity" instead of the Vatican. QAnon is terrible, but its not an organization. The different groups that actually organize are the terrorists.

Your second paragraph doesn't make any sense to me at all. Republicans started this whole making a nebulous concept a concrete thing. They did it with terrorism and the media and antifa, and now you guys want to do it with QAnon.

Go after the actual groups and label them terrorists because they are and make the QAnon crap taboo the same way the n-word is.

[Felya]

What you're doing is like being angry about the systemic pedophilia of Catholic priests so you want to go after "Christianity" instead of the Vatican. QAnon is terrible, but its not an organization. The different groups that actually organize are the terrorists.

No... I said we only go after QAnon militias... you used the generic militias. QAnon is not a subset of a greater whole, unless that whole is GOP... and I am not saying to go make GOP a terrorist organization. Just the QAnon subset, that are actually terrorist.

Your second paragraph doesn't make any sense to me at all. Republicans started this whole making a nebulous concept a concrete thing. They did it with terrorism and the media and antifa, and now you guys want to do it with QAnon.

What do you consider the start of the nebulous concept of terrorist, by Republicans, if not the Muslim fear mongering? You think it’s Antifa? Good luck with that... I’m sure they will arrest the Watkins equivalent of Antifa, any second now. lol

Go after the actual groups and label them terrorists because they are and make the QAnon crap taboo the same way the n-word is.

Okay... I am going after QAnon groups... since I want QAnon to be labeled terrorist... any group that labels them selfs QAnon... is what? Labeling them selfs... what?

Edit: I am sorry... QAnon, as the new N-word? Can you expand on that...

[Ivanstone]

Go after the actual groups and label them terrorists because they are and make the QAnon crap taboo the same way the n-word is.

The problem with Qanon is that its not anything new. Its just the conservative conspiracy theory du jour. The KKK is "taboo" but there are still adherents to the actual thing and a lot more people who are sympathetic to it. How many discussions have we had here about removing Confederate statues?

People with shitty thoughts will just latch on to something to reinforce their beliefs rather than give up their shitty thoughts.

[Bodakane]

No... I said we only go after QAnon militias... you used the generic militias. QAnon is not a subset of a greater whole, unless that whole is GOP... and I am not saying to go make GOP a terrorist organization. Just the QAnon subset, that are actually terrorist.



What do you consider the start of the nebulous concept of terrorist, by Republicans, if not the Muslim fear mongering? You think it’s Antifa? Good luck with that... I’m sure they will arrest the Watkins equivalent of Antifa, any second now. lol



Okay... I am going after QAnon groups... since I want QAnon to be labeled terrorist... any group that labels them selfs QAnon... is what? Labeling them selfs... what?

Edit: I am sorry... QAnon, as the new N-word? Can you expand on that...

You just aren't making sense.

QAnon is a concept not an organization. There's nothing in and of itself to label a terrorist organization. Just like Antifa. Go after the QAnon spouting and believing militias as they are tangible organizations. And that can be done by declaring them individually as terrorist organizations.

You can't declare war on a concept. Terrorism is nebulous. Declaring war on AQ or ISIS is one thing, declaring war on a nebulous concept like terrorism is boundary less and without those boundaries can easily be abused. This is how they brainwash their base, by creating concrete entities out of nebulous things....like "the media". If it is nebulous then it is malleable and can be used for whatever they want it to.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with Qanon is that its not anything new. Its just the conservative conspiracy theory du jour. The KKK is "taboo" but there are still adherents to the actual thing and a lot more people who are sympathetic to it. How many discussions have we had here about removing Confederate statues?

People with shitty thoughts will just latch on to something to reinforce their beliefs rather than give up their shitty thoughts.

People are stupid. Always have been. We cannot legislate thoughts, we can, however, legislate action. QAnon concepts should be turned into a social pariah and anyone that takes action based on QAnon, like storming capitals or making threats, should be gone after by the law.

[Slant]

Right, so the thing is, not all forms of political violence are equally bad.


Scenario 1. Kristalnacht.
Scenario 2. The Romanian Revolution of 1989 (a relatively recent event in a European nation.)

Both were politically motivated, both were bloody and messy events, and both had public murders.

One produced a genocidal regime that lead to a war that rampaged across the world and killed hundreds of millions.

The other produced (after much pain) a functioning and stable democracy with a multi ethnic state with a fairly decent future outlook. That's after the televised execution of a dictator and his wife and nation wide violence, looting and destruction of public and private property.

There is a point where political violence is ultimately not just acceptable but necessary.

Punch the fascist loudmouth today so he can't put you and millions of others into death camps tomorrow.

Create havock in the streets to force institutional reform today before the police and justice system become extensions of your local Nazi party.

The past 4 years the US has become uncomfortably close to sliding down on the slippery slope of fascism and action had to be taken, in some cases radical action to oppose public displays of radicalism and to at least force some law enforcement and local governance reforms.

I don't know if you have noticed, but the severity of Antifa's actions is directly proportional to the scale of the imminent threat (at least in the US). Police killings, Fascist public displays like Charlottesville (I'd argue the Unite the Right rally, even without the car rampage was an act of political violence meant to intimidate and to normalize public displays of fascism and white supremacy) triggered the most virulent reactions.

That one sad lone Trump supporter who made it to pro Trump rally on inauguration day wasn't swamped and beaten senseless, nor did rioters trash the national mall demanding police reform.

It's very easy to get rid of Antifa. Get rid of the fascists.

You're oversimplifying the problem and consequently missing the point. Nobody here is talking about a revolution in an authoritarian regime that violent protest doesn't have its place. What you're glossing over is that Romania had one of the brutal dictatorships. The amount of violence in response to Romania's regime in the end doesn't nearly outweigh the violence that was done to the Romanian people before.

In Germany, however, there was zero violence that wasn't instigated by Nazis themselves. The Capitol attack? In response to zero oppression, zero violence done to Trump supporters. Quite the opposite, the constitution that they were attempting to overthrow was protecting them right up until the very end when they started trespassing.

It seems to me that you still do not understand the point that is being made by many posters here. Both QAnon and the militant blocs of Antifa frequently break the law of countries that are considered free, democratic and just, by an overwhelming majority of their populations and legal science. Both sides have a right to say whatever bullshit comes into their mind (within the framework of the law, incitement is well outside the allowed framework). Both are a danger to society when they start breaking property or even hurt people. Antifa's position is in general just as retarded as the alt-right in that they are a reactionary movement creating the fascist enemy image whenever they don't agree with something, to legitimise their "protests" against what everyone else considers are normal, if boring, democratic institutions and rulesets.

The original "modern" Antifa spawning in Germany out of the student movements of '68 had a legitimate reason to protest against ex-Nazi people still remaining in executive and directorial functions at Universities. That cause has long ago run its course due to age and Nazis mostly being dead by now.

So, do not glorify either side, they are both destructive forces in society. Albeit, as it turns out, Antifa is less destructive in that by and large their damage is limited to property. The alt-right however seems to know no limit. Human lives do not matter to them any more than the actual constitution of what most people would consider the first modern democracy on the planet.

The proper way to deal with extremists is through the law. Creating havoc in the street and causing disturbances makes you part of the problem. LITERALLY you are no better than the forces you protest against. Have a peaceful protest with tens of thousands of participants and no one would complain. Heck, I might even join you. But if you can't attract more than a few hundred because your cause is not relevant anymore, then don't start smashing things up just to get attention. Which is exactly the strategy of the black bloc in Antifa. Heck, even worse... recently I have noticed the trend of what I like to call "chaos tourism" where people join a cause, any cause, just to be violent and hide in the crowd. And both sides are guilty of that. Those ex-military guys in the Capitol run? They don't give a shit about Trump or the cause. They just wanted to be violent, they have issues. They need to be institutionalized.

And let me be very clear. YOU DO NOT HAVE FASCISM IN THE US! It takes a special kind of retard to pretend Antifa even makes sense in the US. Your people have seen the fun we have every Mayday in Europe and they wanted to copy it. Naturally, lacking imagination, they copied everything, including the justification and the cause, without checking if it even makes sense in the US.

You have your own civil liberty movements, you have probably more valid causes than anyone in Europe. We just protest and smash things up out of tradition at this point. DON'T USE WORDS YOU DON'T KNOW THE MEANING OF. Literally, Antifa in the US is an oxymoron.

[Bodakane]

You're oversimplifying the problem and consequently missing the point. Nobody here is talking about a revolution in an authoritarian regime that violent protest doesn't have its place. What you're glossing over is that Romania had one of the brutal dictatorships. The amount of violence in response to Romania's regime in the end doesn't nearly outweigh the violence that was done to the Romanian people before.

In Germany, however, there was zero violence that wasn't instigated by Nazis themselves. The Capitol attack? In response to zero oppression, zero violence done to Trump supporters. Quite the opposite, the constitution that they were attempting to overthrow was protecting them right up until the very end when they started trespassing.

It seems to me that you still do not understand the point that is being made by many posters here. Both QAnon and the militant blocs of Antifa frequently break the law of countries that are considered free, democratic and just, by an overwhelming majority of their populations and legal science. Both sides have a right to say whatever bullshit comes into their mind (within the framework of the law, incitement is well outside the allowed framework). Both are a danger to society when they start breaking property or even hurt people. Antifa's position is in general just as retarded as the alt-right in that they are a reactionary movement creating the fascist enemy image whenever they don't agree with something, to legitimise their "protests" against what everyone else considers are normal, if boring, democratic institutions and rulesets.

The original "modern" Antifa spawning in Germany out of the student movements of '68 had a legitimate reason to protest against ex-Nazi people still remaining in executive and directorial functions at Universities. That cause has long ago run its course due to age and Nazis mostly being dead by now.

So, do not glorify either side, they are both destructive forces in society. Albeit, as it turns out, Antifa is less destructive in that by and large their damage is limited to property. The alt-right however seems to know no limit. Human lives do not matter to them any more than the actual constitution of what most people would consider the first modern democracy on the planet.

The proper way to deal with extremists is through the law. Creating havoc in the street and causing disturbances makes you part of the problem. LITERALLY you are no better than the forces you protest against. Have a peaceful protest with tens of thousands of participants and no one would complain. Heck, I might even join you. But if you can't attract more than a few hundred because your cause is not relevant anymore, then don't start smashing things up just to get attention. Which is exactly the strategy of the black bloc in Antifa. Heck, even worse... recently I have noticed the trend of what I like to call "chaos tourism" where people join a cause, any cause, just to be violent and hide in the crowd. And both sides are guilty of that. Those ex-military guys in the Capitol run? They don't give a shit about Trump or the cause. They just wanted to be violent, they have issues. They need to be institutionalized.

And let me be very clear. YOU DO NOT HAVE FASCISM IN THE US! It takes a special kind of retard to pretend Antifa even makes sense in the US. Your people have seen the fun we have every Mayday in Europe and they wanted to copy it. Naturally, lacking imagination, they copied everything, including the justification and the cause, without checking if it even makes sense in the US.

You have your own civil liberty movements, you have probably more valid causes than anyone in Europe. We just protest and smash things up out of tradition at this point. DON'T USE WORDS YOU DON'T KNOW THE MEANING OF. Literally, Antifa in the US is an oxymoron.

Black people are being murdered by the police without facing any legal consequences.

That is facsim.

[Slant]

Black people are being murdered by the police without facing any legal consequences.

That is facsim.

It's not. Never has been. It's the old problem of slavery/racial discrimination that the US still hasn't actually solved. Don't distract from the problem by giving it a fancy label that gets you all excited and shit. Your Government is very much not fascist. Your state Governments are very much not fascist. Your police force is badly trained in some areas, it has systemic screening problems in other areas... there is a whole list of things that are going wrong and glossing over them with one sweeping and scandalizing label does not solve the problem. It creates more problems and you're not working on the issue.

See, here's what's happening... you talk about black people, but where are they in this alt-right/antifa discussion? That's right, they are not part of it. This is a purely white bullshit problem that white people use to distract themselves from the actual systemic problem of racial injustices. "Oh no, he's so fascist!" - "Oh, he's such a leftist" Yeah, yeah, nobody gives a shit... both sides are responsible for black people being mistreated by the police. Both sides are just too happy with the social inequality when it suits them, and when they are the poor trailer park rednecks, it's about THEM being poor, not the black.

So no, the US is not fascist. The US is... many things, complicated mostly, a bit naive at times and has a hard time looking itself squarely in the eyes to confront its shortcomings.... but that doesn't make the US political system fascist. So stop that bullshit.