Should QAnon be labeled as a terrorist organization?

[Bodakane]

It's not. Never has been. It's the old problem of slavery/racial discrimination that the US still hasn't actually solved. Don't distract from the problem by giving it a fancy label that gets you all excited and shit. Your Government is very much not fascist. Your state Governments are very much not fascist. Your police force is badly trained in some areas, it has systemic screening problems in other areas... there is a whole list of things that are going wrong and glossing over them with one sweeping and scandalizing label does not solve the problem. It creates more problems and you're not working on the issue.

See, here's what's happening... you talk about black people, but where are they in this alt-right/antifa discussion? That's right, they are not part of it. This is a purely white bullshit problem that white people use to distract themselves from the actual systemic problem of racial injustices. "Oh no, he's so fascist!" - "Oh, he's such a leftist" Yeah, yeah, nobody gives a shit... both sides are responsible for black people being mistreated by the police. Both sides are just too happy with the social inequality when it suits them, and when they are the poor trailer park rednecks, it's about THEM being poor, not the black.

So no, the US is not fascist. The US is... many things, complicated mostly, a bit naive at times and has a hard time looking itself squarely in the eyes to confront its shortcomings.... but that doesn't make the US political system fascist. So stop that bullshit.

I mean you're wrong.

If you are black american then this:

fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Applies pretty much on the nose.

[Endus]

I mean you're wrong.

If you are black american then this:



Applies pretty much on the nose.

It's a knee-jerk response based on emotion, not reason. I made a similar argument when Trump was put in office; he hit pretty much every single one of Umberto Eco's 14 points that define fascism. The one he didn't (#11; "everyone is educated to become a hero"), at the time, he'd met by the time he left office, and the January 6th insurrection demonstrated that in spades.

The entire counter-argument boils down to "But fascism is bad. My country isn't bad. I like my country. Therefore it can't be fascism."

That's obviously not an argument at all.

The entire argument completely ignores what fascism actually is, to present it as a shadowy meaningless monster, just so you can hand-wave the argument being made.

The USA has not only been fascism-adjacent for a very long time, many of its legal structures were explicitly used by fascists in forming their own fascist horrors; the Nuremberg transcripts in which the Nazi Reich developed their approach to race laws explicitly cites the USA's Jim Crow laws as one of their chief inspirations and building blocks.

If you want to argue that the USA is obviously not-fascist, you're gonna need to make an effort to be objective about it, and qualify your arguments regarding an actual academic definition of fascism. Not just "but they're the baddies. We're not the baddies, are we?"

[Dezerte]

I think the US has something that could become fascism, but it's not there yet thankfully. You could call it neo-fascism, fascism-lite or something I guess?

By the definition linked above, it meets some of the criteria but not all of them. You still have a democracy in the US, even if it's not perfect (like any other country), individualism is also fairly strong in the US. That said I don't mean to downplay what is happening in the US, and the best parallel might be early 1930s Germany (before Hitler took power). You should still be very much concerned and fight this.

[Bodakane]

I think the US has something that could become fascism, but it's not there yet thankfully. You could call it neo-fascism, fascism-lite or something I guess?

By the definition linked above, it meets some of the criteria but not all of them. You still have a democracy in the US, even if it's not perfect (like any other country), individualism is also fairly strong in the US. That said I don't mean to downplay what is happening in the US, and the best parallel might be early 1930s Germany (before Hitler took power). You should still be very much concerned and fight this.

One more time....if you are a Black American, that definition fits completely.

[Dezerte]

One more time....if you are a Black American, that definition fits completely.

I don't see how it fits completely.

[Slant]

I mean you're wrong.

If you are black american then this:



Applies pretty much on the nose.

It's a knee-jerk response based on emotion, not reason. I made a similar argument when Trump was put in office; he hit pretty much every single one of Umberto Eco's 14 points that define fascism. The one he didn't (#11; "everyone is educated to become a hero"), at the time, he'd met by the time he left office, and the January 6th insurrection demonstrated that in spades.

The entire counter-argument boils down to "But fascism is bad. My country isn't bad. I like my country. Therefore it can't be fascism."

That's obviously not an argument at all.

The entire argument completely ignores what fascism actually is, to present it as a shadowy meaningless monster, just so you can hand-wave the argument being made.

The USA has not only been fascism-adjacent for a very long time, many of its legal structures were explicitly used by fascists in forming their own fascist horrors; the Nuremberg transcripts in which the Nazi Reich developed their approach to race laws explicitly cites the USA's Jim Crow laws as one of their chief inspirations and building blocks.

If you want to argue that the USA is obviously not-fascist, you're gonna need to make an effort to be objective about it, and qualify your arguments regarding an actual academic definition of fascism. Not just "but they're the baddies. We're not the baddies, are we?"

Ok, let me have a go at this. I'll make this easy and take your definition:

fascism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Let's remove some of the obvious waste and trim it down to what I think applies to our situation the best:

- A political movement or regime

Sure, the US is a political "regime" if you want to call it that in the sense that a regime is "a form of Government". I'd agree with this.

- that exalts nation and often race above the individual

Now, we're talking about plain nationalism here. While I'm the first to accuse Americans of drowning in their own nationalism, I know for a fact that most US Americans view themselves as strong individuals and living in a country that promotes their individualism. This is evidenced by the fact that the US does not have a federal identification system like an ID card that is required by law to be owned by every US citizen. It is further evidenced by the catalogue of civil liberties strengthening specifically the individual's rights and freedoms against the state.

I would strongly disagree with this point applying to the US. If nothing else, the second amendment very much gives the individual the legitimised power to overthrow a tyrannical Government. While I'm not familiar with the details of the legal discussion, I am fairly certain the question of whether or not this applies only to external Governments or the US Government itself is still open for debate.

As far as race goes, I've kept that in because I wanted to make a point of it. The official position of the US Governement is that all men are created equal. BY DEFINITION the US already falls out of the pattern for "fascist" on this point. You have lost the debate.

But let's continue for funsies:

- A centralized autocratic Government

The US is a federal democracy. The way I understand the political system, the original plan was to have pretty much all authority lie with the state Governments. The Federal Government has assumed more and more of these authorities, so if I wanted to be nice to you, I'd even let you have the "centralised" part.

If I was having a bad day, I'd point out the relative independence of the 50 states to you. The fact that the US has codified division of power in the executive, legislative and judiciary branch with oversight and control... what you guys call checks and balances.

If nothing else, this item is negative simply because the US is not an autocracy. There is no ABSOLUTE POWER for the US Government. An Autocracy by definition requires an absolute, centralised form of Government. The US does NOT have that. Not even a little bit.

The US falls out of this definition on two counts now.

Let's continue.

- headed by a dictatorial leader

Nope. Just no. Even Trump on his worst day. Nope, nuh-uh. No way, Jose. No Chance, Lance. The President of the US is a powerful political figure. He is NOT a dictator. By definition, dictionary, legal, every day definition. He is the head of the executive branch. He "dictates" exactly one third of what exerts power in the US. And as we can see in Trump perfectly, he is checked and balanced just fine.

Your claim now fails on three counts. Let's see how many more we'll find.

- severe economic and social regimentation

Do I need to talk you through this? If anything, the US suffers from a LACK of sensible regulation.

Four counts.

- and forcible suppression of opposition

Ah, this one... surely. This is the whole reason why you're even talking about fascism. I know you weren't aware of it because your favourite blogshitpage doesn't walk you through concepts properly, but this is what your argument essentially boils down to.

Forcible suppression of opposition. Which opposition would that be? Because, the two major parties are very much not oppressed. That is opposition in a political sense. Now, you're thinking about blacks, right? We're talking about politics, not social issues. But let's play along, my argument is that their opposition is to being oppressed. That is not what this is about. They are not oppressed for opposing the Government. They aren't being oppressed by the Government at all. And even if I let you have this one, WILD AND RIDICULOUS claim that the US Government actively pursues and oppresses the black man, by your own logic it is done because of their RACE not their political stance/opposition.

By my count, this is strike number five.

Even if I let the last one slide, the US doesn't fullfil four counts, anyone of which makes it impossible for you to apply the label to the US. And the last one is contentious and I could probably argue a solid case why it doesn't apply here.

So no, the US is not fascist. I've just spent 20 minutes spelling this shit out for you that you ought to know yourself if you are at all interested in politics. So would you please cut the crap and address the issue instead of throwing buzzphrases around that you CLEARLY do not understand properly.

[Mihalik]

It's not. Never has been.

WHOA THERE. I'm sorry man, but you are stunningly off the base right there. You need take a haaaaard fucking step back and consider that you are MASSIVELY missing the context.

There's a lot to unpack in what you are missing.

One, is that the popular perception of legality and fairness has exactly zero to do with what is morally just. Slavery was legal, and fair, according to most people up to a certain point in time. Segregation was legal and fair according to most people up to a certain point in time. Institutional racism, border concentration camps, private prisons, targeted repression of minority communities remains legal and fair according to a significant number of the population.

What fascists do is that they gradually shift the Overton window in what is perceived as legal and fair. Nazis in Germany didn't start with Auschwitz. Auschwitz was the final inevitable conclusion of a gradual shift in the Overton window. The point of Antifa, even in its most radical incarnation is the recognition that without active resistance liberal democracy is simply ill equipped to halt the march of fascism due to the fascists willingness to use the mechanisms of liberal democracy to dismantle liberal democracy.

Ironically, considering your position, modern Germany has come to the same exact conclusion, that's why Germany has things like hate speech laws. The US democracy lacks the mechanisms to protect itself from being dismantled from within.

The second issue you are having is that you are engaging in a very narrow definition of what is fascism. I know you are not a fascist or have any sympathies of that sort, but fascism isn't just that authoritarian state thing like Augusto Pinochet or Mussolini or Francisco Franco. Fascism can take other forms, it's why fascism is such a fucking horribly difficult to pin down political ideology. A racist justice system/society might not be fascism from your point of view, if you are not on the receiving end of that racism.

For the migrant child sitting in his own feces in a cage in a concentration camp the constitutionality of his situation is irrelevant. He's being treated like an animal by armed authoritarian thugs who are shielded from repercussion by the legality of what they are doing.

The same applies to a black man in Baltimore, who had the misfortune to be born into a destitute red lined community (a ghetto), went to an underfunded school, and was in the prison system or worse probably by the time he was a teenager, being forced with millions of others of his racial and ethnic background to work for the benefit of a private prison system or a state. Nearly every interaction with the state and law enforcement carries a significant risk of death, bodily harm or unfair imprisonment. For him, the notion that the US isn't a fascist state is...frankly dumb. And this extends to other ethnic, racial, sexual orientation minorities.

I would have to write a 900 page essay just to scratch the surface of how the US is both politically and institutionally heavily leaning towards fascism. And this is not a recent development, we were doing fascism before the word was invented.

You are projecting a whole lot of modern Germany onto the US when the two are very distinct. This is a very strange hill for you to die on, just because you can't wrap your head around something like the necessity of Antifa in the US.

[Slant]

WHOA THERE. I'm sorry man, but you are stunningly off the base right there. You need take a haaaaard fucking step back and consider that you are MASSIVELY missing the context.

There's a lot to unpack in what you are missing.

One, is that the popular perception of legality and fairness has exactly zero to do with what is morally just. Slavery was legal, and fair, according to most people up to a certain point in time. Segregation was legal and fair according to most people up to a certain point in time. Institutional racism, border concentration camps, private prisons, targeted repression of minority communities remains legal and fair according to a significant number of the population.

What fascists do is that they gradually shift the Overton window in what is perceived as legal and fair. Nazis in Germany didn't start with Auschwitz. Auschwitz was the final inevitable conclusion of a gradual shift in the Overton window. The point of Antifa, even in its most radical incarnation is the recognition that without active resistance liberal democracy is simply ill equipped to halt the march of fascism due to the fascists willingness to use the mechanisms of liberal democracy to dismantle liberal democracy.

Ironically, considering your position, modern Germany has come to the same exact conclusion, that's why Germany has things like hate speech laws. The US democracy lacks the mechanisms to protect itself from being dismantled from within.

The second issue you are having is that you are engaging in a very narrow definition of what is fascism. I know you are not a fascist or have any sympathies of that sort, but fascism isn't just that authoritarian state thing like Augusto Pinochet or Mussolini or Francisco Franco. Fascism can take other forms, it's why fascism is such a fucking horribly difficult to pin down political ideology. A racist justice system/society might not be fascism from your point of view, if you are not on the receiving end of that racism.

For the migrant child sitting in his own feces in a cage in a concentration camp the constitutionality of his situation is irrelevant. He's being treated like an animal by armed authoritarian thugs who are shielded from repercussion by the legality of what they are doing.

The same applies to a black man in Baltimore, who had the misfortune to be born into a destitute red lined community (a ghetto), went to an underfunded school, and was in the prison system or worse probably by the time he was a teenager, being forced with millions of others of his racial and ethnic background to work for the benefit of a private prison system or a state. Nearly every interaction with the state and law enforcement carries a significant risk of death, bodily harm or unfair imprisonment. For him, the notion that the US isn't a fascist state is...frankly dumb. And this extends to other ethnic, racial, sexual orientation minorities.

I would have to write a 900 page essay just to scratch the surface of how the US is both politically and institutionally heavily leaning towards fascism. And this is not a recent development, we were doing fascism before the word was invented.

You are projecting a whole lot of Germany onto the US when the two are very distinct.

I know you get all kinds of tickled by WW2 and nazis, but you have got to let go of that topic. I'll point out when you're in danger of becoming Hitler Nation 2.0, rest assured. But if you read my response to the other dude, you'll see what fascism actually is and why the term actually does not apply to the US, actually. I'm not projecting anything, I'm just pointing out that you are using the wrong label, you are confused and distracting yourself from a very homegrown problem in the US by pretending it's not an all-Americal all-star convention of bad stuff happening.

And I'd be careful arguing with me about German legislation, because while I'm happy to school you on your own constitution, I REALLY know German legal and historical context. That's not a rollercoaster ride you want to take with me. But I'm always happy to provide, so just feel free to test me...

[Ivanstone]

Forcible suppression of opposition. Which opposition would that be? Because, the two major parties are very much not oppressed. That is opposition in a political sense. Now, you're thinking about blacks, right? We're talking about politics, not social issues. But let's play along, my argument is that their opposition is to being oppressed. That is not what this is about. They are not oppressed for opposing the Government. They aren't being oppressed by the Government at all. And even if I let you have this one, WILD AND RIDICULOUS claim that the US Government actively pursues and oppresses the black man, by your own logic it is done because of their RACE not their political stance/opposition.

By my count, this is strike number five.

Even if I let the last one slide, the US doesn't fullfil four counts, anyone of which makes it impossible for you to apply the label to the US. And the last one is contentious and I could probably argue a solid case why it doesn't apply here.

So no, the US is not fascist. I've just spent 20 minutes spelling this shit out for you that you ought to know yourself if you are at all interested in politics. So would you please cut the crap and address the issue instead of throwing buzzphrases around that you CLEARLY do not understand properly.

1. The US actively suppresses black people to this day. Latinos too. Other races get a "pass" but only if they're polite to white people. Since the racist party (GOP) actively suppresses race they will also actively suppress the opposition party who people of colour typically vote for. Most GOP voting laws are passed to suppress Democrat voters specifically.

2. The US is full of people who would like the idea of living under a fascist government. Even if the US government doesn't actively have most features of a fascist state in its present (or even past) forms, that doesn't mean there aren't people who want it and those people need to be dealt with.

[Slant]

1. The US actively suppresses black people to this day. Latinos too. Other races get a "pass" but only if they're polite to white people. Since the racist party (GOP) actively suppresses race they will also actively suppress the opposition party who people of colour typically vote for. Most GOP voting laws are passed to suppress Democrat voters specifically.

2. The US is full of people who would like the idea of living under a fascist government. Even if the US government doesn't actively have most features of a fascist state in its present (or even past) forms, that doesn't mean there aren't people who want it and those people need to be dealt with.

1. No. You being very emotional about it all and thinking everything is so fucking unfair doesn't make it legal reality. Feel free to show me active laws that are still being enforced and not overthrown by the Supreme Court that actively discriminate against race, specifically against blacks or Latinos. Show me the legal regulation that gives other "races" a "pass". And only if they're polite to white people? Show me the party program for the GOP that describes them as a "racist" party. How are they suppressing the Democrats? The Democrats just won the election, they own congress. I mean, I think the GOP is a pretty incompetent bunch, but this is just beyond sucking at their job if their job is to oppress the opposition. It was a GOP Vice President that presided and ultimately approved the electoral count and made Biden's Presidency a legal reality. Man, they really, really suck at oppression.

2. A country being "full" of people liking the idea of a fascist Government does not make a fascist Government. And let's be clear, the VERY VAST MAJORITY of US citizens do not want a fascist Government. We're talking 90% or so here. You grossly misrepresent the political landscape of the US because you ignore the big ass moderate center.

You need to calm the fuck down and stop making shit up, otherwise you're making it too easy for the other side to dismiss you. You're just as crazy as the ultra-orthodox conservatives or alt-right dreaming up wild conspiracy theories about Jews ruling the world and trying to usurp the US with Mexicans so they can turn the US into a communist utopia...

[Bodakane]

Ok, let me have a go at this. I'll make this easy and take your definition:



Let's remove some of the obvious waste and trim it down to what I think applies to our situation the best:

- A political movement or regime

Sure, the US is a political "regime" if you want to call it that in the sense that a regime is "a form of Government". I'd agree with this.

- that exalts nation and often race above the individual

Now, we're talking about plain nationalism here. While I'm the first to accuse Americans of drowning in their own nationalism, I know for a fact that most US Americans view themselves as strong individuals and living in a country that promotes their individualism. This is evidenced by the fact that the US does not have a federal identification system like an ID card that is required by law to be owned by every US citizen. It is further evidenced by the catalogue of civil liberties strengthening specifically the individual's rights and freedoms against the state.

I would strongly disagree with this point applying to the US. If nothing else, the second amendment very much gives the individual the legitimised power to overthrow a tyrannical Government. While I'm not familiar with the details of the legal discussion, I am fairly certain the question of whether or not this applies only to external Governments or the US Government itself is still open for debate.

As far as race goes, I've kept that in because I wanted to make a point of it. The official position of the US Governement is that all men are created equal. BY DEFINITION the US already falls out of the pattern for "fascist" on this point. You have lost the debate.

But let's continue for funsies:

- A centralized autocratic Government

The US is a federal democracy. The way I understand the political system, the original plan was to have pretty much all authority lie with the state Governments. The Federal Government has assumed more and more of these authorities, so if I wanted to be nice to you, I'd even let you have the "centralised" part.

If I was having a bad day, I'd point out the relative independence of the 50 states to you. The fact that the US has codified division of power in the executive, legislative and judiciary branch with oversight and control... what you guys call checks and balances.

If nothing else, this item is negative simply because the US is not an autocracy. There is no ABSOLUTE POWER for the US Government. An Autocracy by definition requires an absolute, centralised form of Government. The US does NOT have that. Not even a little bit.

The US falls out of this definition on two counts now.

Let's continue.

- headed by a dictatorial leader

Nope. Just no. Even Trump on his worst day. Nope, nuh-uh. No way, Jose. No Chance, Lance. The President of the US is a powerful political figure. He is NOT a dictator. By definition, dictionary, legal, every day definition. He is the head of the executive branch. He "dictates" exactly one third of what exerts power in the US. And as we can see in Trump perfectly, he is checked and balanced just fine.

Your claim now fails on three counts. Let's see how many more we'll find.

- severe economic and social regimentation

Do I need to talk you through this? If anything, the US suffers from a LACK of sensible regulation.

Four counts.

- and forcible suppression of opposition

Ah, this one... surely. This is the whole reason why you're even talking about fascism. I know you weren't aware of it because your favourite blogshitpage doesn't walk you through concepts properly, but this is what your argument essentially boils down to.

Forcible suppression of opposition. Which opposition would that be? Because, the two major parties are very much not oppressed. That is opposition in a political sense. Now, you're thinking about blacks, right? We're talking about politics, not social issues. But let's play along, my argument is that their opposition is to being oppressed. That is not what this is about. They are not oppressed for opposing the Government. They aren't being oppressed by the Government at all. And even if I let you have this one, WILD AND RIDICULOUS claim that the US Government actively pursues and oppresses the black man, by your own logic it is done because of their RACE not their political stance/opposition.

By my count, this is strike number five.

Even if I let the last one slide, the US doesn't fullfil four counts, anyone of which makes it impossible for you to apply the label to the US. And the last one is contentious and I could probably argue a solid case why it doesn't apply here.

So no, the US is not fascist. I've just spent 20 minutes spelling this shit out for you that you ought to know yourself if you are at all interested in politics. So would you please cut the crap and address the issue instead of throwing buzzphrases around that you CLEARLY do not understand properly.

I love how people from other countries are going to tell me what its like in my own country.

Once again, if you are a BLACK AMERICAN, that definition is on the money. You not being able to understand or relate to that has no bearing on the truth of it.

[Slant]

I love how people from other countries are going to tell me what its like in my own country.

Once again, if you are a BLACK AMERICAN, that definition is on the money. You not being able to understand or relate to that has no bearing on the truth of it.

How about you don't appropriate labels from other countries then if you don't want them involved and especially if you don't know what those terms mean. And you can't subsume everything you want into a new label just because you lack the words to actually describe what your issue is about. Rofl.

Or did you mean your complete lack of knowledge of how your political system works and what's in your constitution? Yeah, I can see how that is a bit embarassing.

I mean, I get it, Americans have a hard time with complicated things like "speaking english" sometimes, but really, your tendency to redefine words to mean whatever the fuck you want it to mean is becoming increasingly irritating. Use the words properly, that is the whole point of communication.

[Bodakane]

How about you don't appropriate labels from other countries then if you don't want them involved and especially if you don't know what those terms mean. And you can't subsume everything you want into a new label just because you lack the words to actually describe what your issue is about. Rofl.

I mean, I get it, Americans have a hard time with complicated things like "speaking english" sometimes, but really, your tendency to redefine words to mean whatever the fuck you want it to mean is becoming increasingly irritating. Use the words properly, that is the whole point of communication.

lol, yeah, i'm the guy that started calling them Antifa here in the US.

Again, I didn't redefine a fucking thing. I used the actual goddamned definition.

You getting butthurt doesn't create in me a sense of obligation to agree with your wrongheaded bullshit.

[Mihalik]

I know you get all kinds of tickled by WW2 and nazis, but you have got to let go of that topic. I'll point out when you're in danger of becoming Hitler Nation 2.0, rest assured. But if you read my response to the other dude, you'll see what fascism actually is and why the term actually does not apply to the US, actually. I'm not projecting anything, I'm just pointing out that you are using the wrong label, you are confused and distracting yourself from a very homegrown problem in the US by pretending it's not an all-Americal all-star convention of bad stuff happening.

And I'd be careful arguing with me about German legislation, because while I'm happy to school you on your own constitution, I REALLY know German legal and historical context. That's not a rollercoaster ride you want to take with me. But I'm always happy to provide, so just feel free to test me...

You're being very weird about this.

Again one more time.

Fascism doesn't spring into existence from zero to 100 in a snap of a fucking finger. It's a gradual process.

The US from the moment it came into existence has always leaned more towards fascism than towards democracy. You cite the whole "All men are created equal bit". That offers no real protection, even assuming people apply the principle, because you can just define people out of "men" which we have done for hundreds of years of our history. Then you can redefine what "equal" is... which we have done, and continue doing right now (The Equal Rights Amendment for example or Voter suppression, hell, even the Electoral College).

Then for example your other hot take on this one

- severe economic and social regimentation

Do I need to talk you through this? If anything, the US suffers from a LACK of sensible regulation.

You are missing the point of what "severe economic and social regimentation" means in the US context. We are not talking about sensible regulation or its absence or a command economy.

We are talking about things like legal protections corporations and in some cases things like police departments or branches of the US government receive from being sued by the public. Protections that prevent black people from suing banks that discriminate based on race when handing out loans. Or laws that protect state run, tax payer funded job placement agencies from being sued when they discriminate against people of color or gays.

Or systems like the private for profit prison system which is allowed to work prisoners for profit and in turn can legally lobby law makers to pass targeted laws that affect minority groups more severely to increase prison populations.

Again, I'm not getting into the rest of your points in your reply to Endus, I'm just going to tell you on the friendliest terms that I can, you are completely missing the context on every single one of your points and the conclusions are coming to are just wrong.

[Slant]

lol, yeah, i'm the guy that started calling them Antifa here in the US.

Again, I didn't redefine a fucking thing. I used the actual goddamned definition.

You getting butthurt doesn't create in me a sense of obligation to agree with your wrongheaded bullshit.

So you don't know what you're talking about. Glad we got that sorted out. It's frankly a bit disgusting to see you being such a bad champion for your cause, but I guess the blacks will have to do with people like you. Explains why they're in such a bad position, to be quite frank with you...

- - - Updated - - -

You're being very weird about this.

Again one more time.

Fascism doesn't spring into existence from zero to 100 in a snap of a fucking finger. It's a gradual process.

The US from the moment it came into existence has always leaned more towards fascism than towards democracy. You cite the whole "All men are created equal bit". That offers no real protection, even assuming people apply the principle, because you can just define people out of "men" which we have done for hundreds of years of our history. Then you can redefine what "equal" is... which we have done, and continue doing right now (The Equal Rights Amendment for example or Voter suppression, hell, even the Electoral College).

Then for example your other hot take on this one

You are missing the point "severe economic and social regimentation". We are not talking about sensible regulation.

We are talking about things like legal protections corporations and in some cases things like police departments or branches of the US government receive from being sued by the public. Protections like prevent black people from suing banks that discriminate based on race when handing loans. Or laws that protect state run, tax payer funded job placement agencies from being sued when they discriminate against people of color or gays.

Or systems the private for profit prison system which is allowed to work prisoners for profit and in turn can legally lobby law makers to pass targeted laws that affect minority groups more severely to increase prison populations.

Again, I'm not getting into the rest of your points in your reply to Endus, I'm just going to tell you on the friendliest terms that I can, you are completely missing the context on every single one of your points and the conclusions are coming to are just wrong.

Hi, ignoring legal and political realities and wishing Hitler Nation 2.0 into being just because you're bored and or displaying a very, very disgusting fascination with Nazis (something I only observe in the British and Americans, interestingly) does not make a fascist state.

The US has never EVER leaned towards fascism. Not even a little bit. This is the type of empty headed bullshit you tell each other to make stuff more interesting, but it really doesn't work like that. It's a FULL BLOWN PROPER DEMOCRACY. No matter how often some knuckleheads tell each other the myth that a Republic can't be democratic. Some outrageously stupid stuff that is. And that "bit" is the first major civil rights bullet point in your constitution. Read it, it's worth it.

Blablabla, you are not happy about the situation. I get it, I understand it... but you would have much more success addressing the actual problems rather than philosophising about fascism because you JUST LOVE to talk about Nazis. God you can't get enough. Would be fun to live in actual Naziland, wouldn't it, so you could actually see how it is. It's shit. If you think you are in any way shape or form oppressed by an autocratic Government, I'd like you to take a long hard look at ACTUAL fascist states.

Did you get executed by a court because you threw some flyers down the University steps? Do you knwo anyone being charged, convicted and executed for anything like that? I'm not talking about police malpractice, I'm talking about ALL GOVERNMENT BRANCHES working together to legally END YOUR LIFE because you chose to disagree with the regime?

Is that happening in the US? Do you have an actual law that PUNISHES YOU WITH DEATH for dissent, with the police apprehending you because the fucking Janitor ratted on you, and a middle-aged, amiable judge calmly announcing your DEATH because legally you dissented and therefore do not deserve to live anymore? Did you have your parents escorted to the prison in a calm manner, because that is how proceedings go to say goodbye before your head is chopped off because you happen to disagree with the Government? No? Then stop fucking talking about things you know nothing about.

There is no "We're almost fascist, so let me have it" argument. End of story.

You are a living insult to everyone that died to actual fascism. And at the same time you are distracting from the problems black people in the US face on a daily basis. While you pretend to "have done your part" by doing a bullshit argument about fascism that ultimately either only serves to entertain you and tickle your fancy or to portray you as a victim yourself.

Please, don't get into my points. I've wasted enough time on you and I doubt you have the mental capacity to actually follow an actual legal argument if I showed you a map to go along with it. Bye now.

- - - Updated - - -

One last thing before I leave... none of y'all would be having this conversation if y'all lived in a fascist regime. You'd be shutting up and/or cowering in some cellar hiding your political position as well as you can. This thread is in itself enough proof of the hilarious fallacy of US fascism. Be grateful and make sure you never let fascism rule the US, but I'm very happy to attest that you are very, very much far away from being fascist. Now stop this silliness.

[Bodakane]

So you don't know what you're talking about. Glad we got that sorted out. It's frankly a bit disgusting to see you being such a bad champion for your cause, but I guess the blacks will have to do with people like you. Explains why they're in such a bad position, to be quite frank with you...

Really, at this point, I cannot decide if you're taking the stupid position you're taking because:

- You're uber right wing.

Or

- You're doing the whole, "If you think your X is great/awful, you should how much better/worse my X is".

Of course, i'm aware those choices don't have to mutually exclusive.....

[Mihalik]

One last thing before I leave... none of y'all would be having this conversation if y'all lived in a fascist regime. You'd be shutting up and/or cowering in some cellar hiding your political position as well as you can. This thread is in itself enough proof of the hilarious fallacy of US fascism. Be grateful and make sure you never let fascism rule the US, but I'm very happy to attest that you are very, very much far away from being fascist. Now stop this silliness.

Holy fuckballs dude. You have went full ballistic off your rockers. And every single fucking thing you've just said before this is factually wrong. What the fuck are you on about? Even fucking Ben Shapiro and Steven Crowder would think you went waaay too far on Kool Aid.

The reason why we haven't quite went full fucking Nazi is because people constantly fucking struggle against the tendency to do so!

That's what the fuck the Civil War was, that's what the Civil Rights movement was, that's what Antifa and BLM are. Because if we would have just all went "Shut up and be grateful" we would have went fucking full nazi 15 times over and half of the people living in North America today would have went the way of the Native Americans ages ago.

What the shit. I was horrifyingly wrong about you. You're right up there with Theo and the rest, I just don't think in your case it's malice, it just think it's a scary combination of pure ignorance and unwillingness to challenge your own biases.

[Felya]

QAnon is a concept not an organization. There's nothing in and of itself to label a terrorist organization. Just like Antifa. Go after the QAnon spouting and believing militias as they are tangible organizations. And that can be done by declaring them individually as terrorist organizations.

Can you explain to me, how ones comes to concepts like QAnon, without leadership? You think a bunch of people who have no awareness of each other, looked at the data, to conclude that JFK jr intrusted Trump with a global conspiracy? This isn’t a doomsday prophecy... there are goals as it pertains to overthrowing government and installing their version of government.

As I pointed out already, Antifa is a repeated and understandable reaction to authoritarianism, as it starts to look like fascism.

You can't declare war on a concept. Terrorism is nebulous. Declaring war on AQ or ISIS is one thing, declaring war on a nebulous concept like terrorism is boundary less and without those boundaries can easily be abused. This is how they brainwash their base, by creating concrete entities out of nebulous things....like "the media". If it is nebulous then it is malleable and can be used for whatever they want it to.

The nebulous nature of QAnon is your ignorance. There is nothing different between a group in US that wants to overthrow the US government on behalf of Taliban and a group that wants to overthrow the government to install Trump.

[Ivanstone]

1. No. You being very emotional about it all and thinking everything is so fucking unfair doesn't make it legal reality. Feel free to show me active laws that are still being enforced and not overthrown by the Supreme Court that actively discriminate against race, specifically against blacks or Latinos. Show me the legal regulation that gives other "races" a "pass". And only if they're polite to white people? Show me the party program for the GOP that describes them as a "racist" party. How are they suppressing the Democrats? The Democrats just won the election, they own congress. I mean, I think the GOP is a pretty incompetent bunch, but this is just beyond sucking at their job if their job is to oppress the opposition. It was a GOP Vice President that presided and ultimately approved the electoral count and made Biden's Presidency a legal reality. Man, they really, really suck at oppression.

2. A country being "full" of people liking the idea of a fascist Government does not make a fascist Government. And let's be clear, the VERY VAST MAJORITY of US citizens do not want a fascist Government. We're talking 90% or so here. You grossly misrepresent the political landscape of the US because you ignore the big ass moderate center.

You need to calm the fuck down and stop making shit up, otherwise you're making it too easy for the other side to dismiss you. You're just as crazy as the ultra-orthodox conservatives or alt-right dreaming up wild conspiracy theories about Jews ruling the world and trying to usurp the US with Mexicans so they can turn the US into a communist utopia...

1. The US doesn’t have a lot of standards. For example, if you’re arrested for a specific crime there’s no set way of handling it. Which is why white people will often get less or no bail for a crime and a shorter sentence in the less likely event they get convicted. It’s what’s the whole religious belief laws are about. A particular group of people get a pass on being shitty to others because of their religious beliefs.

As for voter rights in particular Biden and the Dems barely won.
The Presidency is a rigged game in favour of the GOP. The electoral college was set up to protect less populated slave states and it still works to this day to favour rural white voters.
The Dems barely won the house because of gerrymandering and voter suppression. It is illegal to do these things on the basis of race. It’s not illegal to do this on the basis of party and that’s precisely what happens. The last voting standard set up in the US was tossed out by a partisan Supreme Court. I am not in the least slightest bit being hyperbolic about this.
The Senate is another rigged game. You can’t gerrymander the senate but voter suppression still happens and the senate gives disproportionate power to the same rural white states that are empowered by the electoral college. The Dems barely got both Georgia seats and immediately after their victory the GOP controlled state government started drafting laws to further suppress the vote.

The Dems need to have much stronger turnouts to get anything accomplished.

PS Pence’s job was strictly ceremonial. Even if he said no, it would’ve happened.

2. 74 million people voted for a proto-fascist. Loudly proclaiming you’re for freedom doesn’t mean you actually believe in it.

[Bodakane]

Can you explain to me, how ones comes to concepts like QAnon, without leadership? You think a bunch of people who have no awareness of each other, looked at the data, to conclude that JFK jr intrusted Trump with a global conspiracy? This isn’t a doomsday prophecy... there are goals as it pertains to overthrowing government and installing their version of government.

As I pointed out already, Antifa is a repeated and understandable reaction to authoritarianism, as it starts to look like fascism.



The nebulous nature of QAnon is your ignorance. There is nothing different between a group in US that wants to overthrow the US government on behalf of Taliban and a group that wants to overthrow the government to install Trump.

Yes I do. I think one person spouts something and it gets caught in the echo chamber of Facebook or forums. It is no more a concrete organization than Dallas Cowboys fans. Are there cowboy fan organizations? Yes. Does the nebulous "being a fan of the cowboys" make you part of an organization? No. This isn't a hard concept and you're not usually stupid so i don't know why you're struggling so hard.

The only thing ignorant is your stance on this and your rebuttal with Antifa. I love the antifa movement and hope its always here. I'm not arguing its merits though. I'm arguing it is not a concrete organization. Neither is QAnon. If there was QAnon Believers of New Hampshire, for example, and they are doing terrorist shit, go after them specifically.