Opposite schools of magic cancel each other?

[Varaben]

Mage is so stupid, you are fire, but still use frost nova and arcane blink, or in combustion you can hide yourself in ice block. So stupid.
But not only that, mages use arcane to do magic, they get their power from order, just like warlocks get it from chaos.
Why frost and fire even exists? This is beyond stupid, we have shamans on the position of element weilders already, we don't need some second-hand copy who uses arcane to create artificial fire and frost (yes this is what mages are).
So so lame. Shaman should be all about elements and mage should focus on arcane. Arcane dps spec as it is now, heal spec, which uses titan reverse time magic to heal and tank spec blood elf wc3 melee unit style, who was immune to magic dmg (adapt to MMO obviously).

So for mages specifically, they have been pretty clear at least in some expansions that you're the CLASS before you're the spec. You're not "FIRE", you're a "FIRE MAGE." So you specialize in Fire, but you still have your basic mage abilities. Same with Ret Paladin. You do damage, but you're a Paladin before you're Ret, so you can still heal and provide utility in blessings.

I agree though that it would be kinda cool to see Mage be more like the WC3 style, but I think we're too far down the path for something like that.

[Thrif]

Real RPGs like Divinity: Original Sin has mechanics like this, if a unit is wet it takes less damage from fire, it freezes easier, it is electrocuted easier, and if it freezes you need to be careful with fire spells because it will break it free.

Wow isn't an RPG anymore though so it can't have interesting and realistic interactions between abilities. The people who have grown accustomed to the skinner box gameplay of wow would just be confused about having to think about things.

[Razion]

Much like balance druids swapping between the two schools of magic I take it?

Mechanically in my head it was more similar to Unholy breaking Wounds. Conceptually one could think of examples like Frostfire Bolt. Lightning volcanoes, etc.

[mickybrighteyes]

That's more or less the same logic I had back in vanilla when innocently little me asked my brother: why is it that exorcism and holy wrath don't work on undead players? They're undead!

well that's just it...but between pally griefers and the totally unexected side effect of what being undead ALSO rendered you immune to (sap, disorients, polymorph, fear...) things had to change.


IMO if people want to get technical. burns might actually be made WORSE by exposure to extreme cold effects (and the same is true for reversing cold to hot) so opposites wouldn't technically cancel by nature of being opposites.

[Piplupzero]

Sure. Just let you be completely immune to a spec because you play a different spec. Seems balanced. While we're at it why not just let warriors and rogues kill you in one weapon swing cause, come on... you get slashed by a sword while wearing a dress and walk away with only 5% hp damage. Thats unrealistic

[TbouncerT]

Lol at people that say Paladin exorcism or Turn Evil worked on players, it never did in retail. It existed briefly in alpha and beta but anyone claiming it existed in actual release version is talking out of big gaping asshole.

LOL way to make yourself look like this "asshole" you speak of. It did work on players in retail.

[mickybrighteyes]

Mage is so stupid, you are fire, but still use frost nova and arcane blink, or in combustion you can hide yourself in ice block. So stupid.
But not only that, mages use arcane to do magic, they get their power from order, just like warlocks get it from chaos.

i think this is more a side effect of focusing on specc over class for basically a decade. As for the order and chaos thing... I'd have a lore argument on that but for gameplay it doens't matter.

Why frost and fire even exists? This is beyond stupid, we have shamans on the position of element weilders already, we don't need some second-hand copy who uses arcane to create artificial fire and frost (yes this is what mages are).

Because when frost and fire were making their dps position known... elemental was a half assed healing spec that couldn't get into a raid AND was faction restricted!

So so lame. Shaman should be all about elements and mage should focus on arcane. Arcane dps spec as it is now, heal spec, which uses titan reverse time magic to heal and tank spec blood elf wc3 melee unit style, who was immune to magic dmg (adapt to MMO obviously).

I think DK and surv hunter reimaginings would be a good indication of why not to do this.

[Triceron]

If they made a Warcraft themed action-adventure RPG like Breath of the Wild, I'd be all over it.

Otherwise World of Warcraft is way too rigid to have this sort of niche element/magic school system in place.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Real RPGs like Divinity: Original Sin has mechanics like this, if a unit is wet it takes less damage from fire, it freezes easier, it is electrocuted easier, and if it freezes you need to be careful with fire spells because it will break it free.

Wow isn't an RPG anymore though so it can't have interesting and realistic interactions between abilities. The people who have grown accustomed to the skinner box gameplay of wow would just be confused about having to think about things.

WoW was never an RPG that tried to emulate elemental damage to the degree some P&P games might have done it in the past or some CRPGs try to emulate. WoW's combat is also not turn based and designed for larger groups, hence why it's way closer to ARPGs and the like.

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IMO if people want to get technical. burns might actually be made WORSE by exposure to extreme cold effects (and the same is true for reversing cold to hot) so opposites wouldn't technically cancel by nature of being opposites.

Technically you would have to overcome the temperature difference first, so you'd need to apply a flat damage reduction based on the temperature gradient and then apply a bonus for the remainder of the damage due to the weaked structual state of the target. But that is just a ludicrous amount of depth in a game as simple as WoW and would make the combat system even more obscure than it already is.

- - - Updated - - -

Why frost and fire even exists? This is beyond stupid, we have shamans on the position of element weilders already, we don't need some second-hand copy who uses arcane to create artificial fire and frost (yes this is what mages are).

The second hand copy is actually shaman, because originally shaman were the shit tier uneducated tribal mages of the orcish horde that couldn't wield arcane sufficiently enough that they needed to make a deal with the elements to carry their sorry asses.

[mickybrighteyes]

Technically you would have to overcome the temperature difference first, so you'd need to apply a flat damage reduction based on the temperature gradient and then apply a bonus for the remainder of the damage due to the weaked structual state of the target. But that is just a ludicrous amount of depth in a game as simple as WoW and would make the combat system even more obscure than it already is.

i think that's ignoring ice wedging or pressure fluctuation resultant from temp swings. Not simply just a weakened structure. getting a layer of frost reverted to steam right in your face sounds like a good way to induce burns to your lungs (a VERY unpleasant way to go). But really I don't think this dmg reduction to overcome temp difference is really at all the thing to stand on

[Dwimmerlaik]

Well, pretty much everyone in this thread has shown a fundamental lack of knowing how magic works in WoW.

Mages don’t have a “fire” school and a “frost” school - it’s all inherently arcane. They focus on harnessing arcane energy to effect the element they want in the real world. Another point of contention is that, for example, fire and frost wouldn’t cancel each other out unless the mage on each end was the exact equal of the other. If the opposing fire mage is slightly stronger than the frost mage then the fire mage’s spells would overpower the frost mage’s, and vice versa.

If you’re looking for more explanation, https://blizzardwatch.com/2016/12/09...magic-azeroth/ does a great job of explaining it.

[Irian]

Lol at people that say Paladin exorcism or Turn Evil worked on players, it never did in retail. It existed briefly in alpha and beta but anyone claiming it existed in actual release version is talking out of big gaping asshole.

Depends on what you mean. As a demo lock PvPer for several expansions I can definitely confirm turn evil did work and it absolutely sucked ass.

[Cosmic Janitor]

i think that's ignoring ice wedging or pressure fluctuation resultant from temp swings. Not simply just a weakened structure. getting a layer of frost reverted to steam right in your face sounds like a good way to induce burns to your lungs (a VERY unpleasant way to go). But really I don't think this dmg reduction to overcome temp difference is really at all the thing to stand on

My point was more according to the original idea of the guy a fire dot should be extinquished, and that would be the state of someone being on fire. To do so you either need to deprive the flame of oxygen first to stop the reaction or you need to take the energy out of it so that the reaction stops itself. The obvious idea here being that one cast is a fixed amount of energy that vaguely correlates to damage. Either way, the main takeaway is that it's just way too complicated to accurately simulate physics in your damage model, especially when you could first introduce more enviromental interactions instead to increase immersion.

[Dreyen]

For gameplay consistency, it's not very acceptable unless the spell is meant to remove effects (Dispels, divine shield, etc). Those kind of mechanics are better left to games where balance is not as important and fantasy is more.

[TbouncerT]

Depends on what you mean. As a demo lock PvPer for several expansions I can definitely confirm turn evil did work and it absolutely sucked ass.

Haha, it did feel good to be on the other side of the fear for once XD

[ohwell]

That's more or less the same logic I had back in vanilla when innocently little me asked my brother: why is it that exorcism and holy wrath don't work on undead players? They're undead!

I think it did in the beta or something of vanilla.

On topic, it's just like HS they don't want to make it more complicated for players but at least unlike hs it's more like the complication will just lead to a "best" that they want to avoid. Also it shouldn't be cancel each other out rather than X beats X but is weak to X or something like opposing forces like fel beats arcane but not vice versa apparently according to lore.

[erifwodahs]

Could make sense, but it would be very bad gameplay and would only affect some classes and inconsistencies would just ruin any logic behind it. Better leave it for DnD

[TheFirstOnes]

"Opposite schools of magic cancel each other?" No. Doesn't happen in Lore (Though, it also depends on the persons power, as Gul'dan (Pre-Tomb empowered) and Khadgar cancelled each-others magics out in the ToS Audio Drama since they were practically equal), nor does it happen in game. Would be a stupid idea of it were implemented anyway.

[procne]

I can totally see a frost mage "healing" the main tank who is taking beating from a fire enemy, by casting frostbolts and cancelling enemy fire spells. Hilarious

[Melusine]

Cancelling each other? See, if we're talking a shaman casting riptide on a player debuffed with flame shock and it removed it, I guess that would be one thing. For the sake of this, I'm just going to use shaman since it's the class I'm most familiar with, and say, if you riptide someone with frost shock, would that then also slow that player even more? You have to take the good with the bad, right? Although one thing I would like to see if where if there is a bunch of fire all over the ground, and I cast healing rain on it, that the patch of fire goes away because it got rained on, and that would be intuitive game play, but I doubt we'd ever see this. Now, if you're talking a frost mage casts a frostbolt at me and I cast lava burst at him, that both spell should cancel out, then I would say no to that.