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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    Mandalorian is made by people who actually understand why the franchise is popular and successful, they don't have to make an effort to cater to fans because they are fans themselves.

    That's what Star Trek needs, the current show runners don't understand Star Trek at all, with the exception of Lower Decks.
    I put off watching Lower Decks for ages because after the trailer I assumed I'd hate it. It is actually solid Trek though. Some of the humour does try too hard (especially in the first episode) but I really think it finds its stride and feels a lot more like StarTrek than other current Trek. It embraces what Starfleet is and ideals, while also heavily criticising it and its inconsistencies. When they just let the jokes roll off Trek cannon then it's a blast. (Finale was great especially).
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    The Star Wars sequel trilogy is just poorly done Star Wars. So was the prequel trilogy. All of Star Wars is overly nostalgic action adventure in space. That latter part's fine. Mandalorin just demonstrated that you can still make good quality live action Star Wars. It wasn't treading new ground.

    DSC S1 had interesting elements that makes it Trek. Saru is the first distinctly non-human crew ever as a main cast (Klingons and Bajorans don't count). A ship with experimental technology. A unique look into the Federation's criminal justice system. Better production to bring it all to life.

    And they used it all to have over-the-top fight scenes. Sigh.
    "Mandalorin just demonstrated that you can still make good quality live action Star Wars."

    That is precisely what people are meaning when they say Star Wars needs a mandalorian. There needs to be a show that can prove you can still make good star trek.

    STD has a number of good ideas, but its execution has left the fanbase feeling disinterested and spiteful to the franchise.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    DSC S1 had interesting elements that makes it Trek. Saru is the first distinctly non-human crew ever as a main cast (Klingons and Bajorans don't count). A ship with experimental technology. A unique look into the Federation's criminal justice system. Better production to bring it all to life.

    And they used it all to have over-the-top fight scenes. Sigh.
    I feel after Lorca died, the whole military structure and discipline and authority faded more and more, and I didn't realise how important that was to a series feeling like Star Trek. By series 3 the crew just feels like an obnoxious work clique who just do whatever they want without any real consequences.

    What Discovery writers have forgotten is that you have to ground it in something real and with logical consequences, or this leads to decisions that just make it increasingly frustrating and unbelievable (which says a lot for a ship in an alien world).

    Picard would never have promoted Ensign Wesley Crusher as Captain over all the other more qualified bridge crew (who've actually taken Command training) because that would have been completely fucking mental and ridiciculous. Discovery though is so far from believability or grounding in reality that they can do the same with Ensign Tilly without raising objections.
    Last edited by rogueMatthias; 2021-02-04 at 07:11 PM.
    BASIC CAMPFIRE for WARCHIEF UK Prime Minister!

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    "Mandalorin just demonstrated that you can still make good quality live action Star Wars."

    That is precisely what people are meaning when they say Star Wars needs a mandalorian. There needs to be a show that can prove you can still make good star trek.

    STD has a number of good ideas, but its execution has left the fanbase feeling disinterested and spiteful to the franchise.
    People need to say: "We need better Star Trek." No referencing other shows. Especially Star Wars. Because the problem with DSC is they tried to turn Trek into a Star Wars show.

    I enjoyed the Killjoys (more than I like Mando). But I don't say DSC needs to be good like the Killjoys because they're not really the same kind of show. Honestly I'm not sure what I could compare Trek to. Tennant Dr. Who is probably a much better objective for DSC to aim for than anything Star Wars related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogueMatthias View Post
    Picard would never have promoted Ensign Wesley Crusher as Captain, over all the other more qualified bridge crew (who've actually taken Command training) because that would have been completely fucking mental and ridiciculous. Discovery though is so far from believability or grounding in reality that they can do the same with Ensign Tilly without raising objections.
    Picard did nominate a young inexperienced civilian character to Acting Ensign because he felt it would be a good experience.

    Saru nominated an Ensign to Acting First Officer for similar reasons. Its admittedly more of a stretch but the reasoning was the same. The actual mistake was Tilly not deferring to the Second Officer when the shit hit the fan. No, I don't know who the second officer is. Which is another mistake.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    "Mandalorin just demonstrated that you can still make good quality live action Star Wars."

    That is precisely what people are meaning when they say Star Wars needs a mandalorian. There needs to be a show that can prove you can still make good star trek.

    STD has a number of good ideas, but its execution has left the fanbase feeling disinterested and spiteful to the franchise.
    Yeah he's still not getting it for some reason.

    Making a show that honors the legacy and doesn't insult the fans, with lots of attention to detail. Once you've repaired the damage, THEN you can move forward to something new.

    Picard could have been this but wasn't. It was just...something. Incompetently executed. The sequel trilogy is a good comparison.

  6. #46
    Look at that, it's turning into another bitching about Discovery thread. How surprising.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Look at that, it's turning into another bitching about Discovery thread. How surprising.
    Disc being the most recently aired
    Gen-3 trek it’s to be expected, and I prefer it being here instead of the show thread because the sentiment keeps getting repeated. So allow me to pivot:

    Know what I couldn’t stand about Picard? Well one of the things? Romulans? These guys, again? Ugh. I mean at least it’s not the Klingons but I think we’re bound to get more of them in Picard S2 and I fear disc s4 will focus on humans on earth. Give me a break. At least we have LD!

    Know what I loved about DS9? Klingons? A bit. Romulans. Some, not a ton. I felt neither was overused. We got to see a lot of the Cardassians, Bajorans, ferrengi, The dominion, you know, new stuff. It’s hard to argue against Dukat as one of the all time great trek villains, and Garek is the best supporting character in all of Trek, CMV. That’s what I want from gen-3 trek. Moving forward with the federation and not focusing an inordinate amount of time on the races we already know quite well.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoirFaire View Post
    Know what I loved about DS9? Klingons? A bit. Romulans. Some, not a ton. I felt neither was overused. We got to see a lot of the Cardassians, Bajorans, ferrengi, The dominion, you know, new stuff. It’s hard to argue against Dukat as one of the all time great trek villains, and Garek is the best supporting character in all of Trek, CMV. That’s what I want from gen-3 trek. Moving forward with the federation and not focusing an inordinate amount of time on the races we already know quite well.
    I can fully agree that I'd like to explore alien races and what they say about ourselves much more. I'd like to see Discovery explore the Kelpiens and Barzans more than they have already. Like you, I'd love to see Picard have more to do with anyone other than the Romulans and the Borg. Ossyra was a good villain, but only lasted just over half a season. That's a bit of a waste. Same with Lorca in season 1, man would I like to see him back.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    I can fully agree that I'd like to explore alien races and what they say about ourselves much more. I'd like to see Discovery explore the Kelpiens and Barzans more than they have already. Like you, I'd love to see Picard have more to do with anyone other than the Romulans and the Borg. Ossyra was a good villain, but only lasted just over half a season. That's a bit of a waste. Same with Lorca in season 1, man would I like to see him back.
    Mirror Lorca is dead. Prime Lorca’s disappearance was never resolved. That I wouldn’t mind seeing.

  10. #50
    Merely a Setback Sunseeker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoirFaire View Post
    Know what I loved about DS9? Klingons? A bit. Romulans. Some, not a ton. I felt neither was overused. We got to see a lot of the Cardassians, Bajorans, ferrengi, The dominion, you know, new stuff. It’s hard to argue against Dukat as one of the all time great trek villains, and Garek is the best supporting character in all of Trek, CMV. That’s what I want from gen-3 trek. Moving forward with the federation and not focusing an inordinate amount of time on the races we already know quite well.
    Well, inevitably every Star Trek series has "the Ferengi problem". Sure, we can introduce a new species, we can see how they're a new challenge for the Federation to deal with buuuuuut.....there's no guarantee that they're going to catch on as characters the viewers want to see as primary antagonists recurring throughout the series. TNG tried the Ferengi, and found ground with the more existential threat of the Borg.

    DS9 tried the Cardassians and it found traction, but then they introduced the Dominion as a Borg-esque existential threat, which IMO was arguably just neo-Klingons(the Jem'Hadar) and neo-Romulans(Vorta) and the Changelings (IMO) were wholly uninteresting as villains.

    Voyager tried the Kazon(hey look we're doing the Klingon thing again!) and found ground with a "monster of the week" TNG vibe and then fell back on the Borg as the big baddies.

    Enterprise tried...things and we got the Xindi and the Temporal War. Fucking christ...when people when about DSC, excuse me, do you have a moment to talk about the Xindi?

    I'm not saying you're wrong, only that sometimes it takes a while for a show to really nail down a "good villain".

    Personally, I think DSC should have stuck with the Mirror Universe as the main antagonists. So far it's been the one redeeming element of the series, that for all the leather clad Kira's and "havind a goatee means you're evil" counterparts, DSC's presentation of the Mirror Universe has been one of the best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    "That's my style; I like to kick 'em when they're down!"
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunseeker View Post
    excuse me, do you have a moment to talk about the Xindi?
    Go for it! Vent your spleen.

    I didn't mind ENT S3 but you're more than welcome to shit on it. Just don't dis Phlox. He might actually be my favourite CMO.

  12. #52
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the game View Post
    So in Star Trek First contact when the federation was fighting the borg cube. Worf decided to make a suicide run on the cube when he ran out of torpedos. However the Defiant's nose is an armed launchable warhead. So why didn't he use that? I understand that they lose their navigational deflector when they launch it but if he was already willing to make a suicide run on the cube you'd think he would've used the warhead first.
    A warp core exploding will do a LOT more damage than shooting the deflector dish at them

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    I think their assholeness kind of made sense as an extension of the prime directive though. Just because a species can achieve warp, doesn't mean they can be trusted with all your technology.

    You could consider anyone following the prime directive an asshole for not helping a primitive civilization with diseases and natural disasters too, afterall.
    Especially considering Humans, in the last 150 years before first contact had experienced so many wars including 3 world wars....the eugenics wars. It's understandable that the Vulcans were cautious
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  13. #53
    I admit I kinda like Discovery.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by bulutooth23 View Post
    I admit I kinda like Discovery.
    I think the show has a number of good ideas. I don't mind the spore drive (Time period is kind of bad for it to originate in but whatever). I like the concepts of the characters. I like Saru, especially as the first non-human captain of the main ship. The klingon war could have been done well. Similarly, I think moving trek into another time period like TNG did is good at this point.

    Really my problem is just the execution of all these broad ideas, and the logic (or lack there of) they use to prop them up. I feel like their brainstorm sessions are on point, but they don't seem to be able to translate that to the screen properly.

    In my opinion at least.

  15. #55
    RIP Christopher Plummer


  16. #56
    For those of us old enough to remember, TNG was hated even before it aired and for a long time afterward. It was a number of seasons before it got good and loved.

    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    For those of us old enough to remember, TNG was hated even before it aired and for a long time afterward. It was a number of seasons before it got good and loved.
    Some people can’t handle something new. I always wondered what old USENET Trek groups would post about TNG/VOY/DS9. There are some archives available but it’s not complete. I did dig this up from 21st Century Usenet (aka Reddit):
    https://www.reddit.com/r/StarTrekDis..._1993_why_the/

    Here’s a line from a 1993 DS9 review:
    “It cost $12 million dollars, and starts a whole new era in the Trek universe. If this episode is anything to go by, the series has a lot of potential. Now all they need to do is not throw in lots of morals, ignore social conscience and find some good science fiction plots.”

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Some people can’t handle something new.
    My favorite bit from that article is where they describe LeVar Burton as "The New Spock". Can you imagine the butthurt on the internet if that happened today? It'd be "woke" this, and "SJW" that
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    For those of us old enough to remember, TNG was hated even before it aired and for a long time afterward. It was a number of seasons before it got good and loved.

    [IMG]https://scontent-den4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/145824597_4120102571343052_9156636403561670366_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ ohc=vD9ITK1frKEAX9taw8r&_nc_ht=scontent-den4-1.xx&oh=8473ab335be6012477f3a50c40da9542&oe=6044550D[IMG]
    "LeVar Burton - the new Spock"

    Not quite! If anyone's the new Spock, it'd be Data

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathwell View Post
    "LeVar Burton - the new Spock"

    Not quite! If anyone's the new Spock, it'd be Data
    RIGHT?! How can anyone pick any other crew member *but* Data when you're talking about "The new character associated with pure logic as counter to humanity." (That right there would make me discount anything else the reviewer said since they clearly don't understand the characters they are talking about.) But in any case... (lol)

    But yes - every new show in a franchise (be it Trek, or any other franchise) is usually met with much resistance from 'old fans'. Its not necessarily to do with the show itself - but the human resistance to change.

    That's why I usually try to have enough awareness of my own resistance (as a human) to change and new things and give new shows (and other new things) a bit more time to get their feet under them before I decide if I like it or not. I know as a human I'm biologically programmed to be resistant and suspicious of change and 'new', so I keep that in mind.

    So yea, every new Trek Show is always going to have a portion of old fans who outright will never like it from day one - because its new, and they don't want the change. Some of those shows come into their own and are seen as 'worthy' next generation shows, and some of those shows don't (or won't). Truly only time and hindsight will be the 'truth' when it comes to those shows.

    And it means for the rest of us - to give things time 'to grow on us' and to get past the 'new' feeling before we jump on any immediate show-hating bandwagons after only the first episode or something. Yes, a show can be objectively bad of course - regardless of whether its new or not. But if you haven't even given yourself time to get over the resistance to the change, then you aren't giving a show (or anything else) the chance on its own.

    Humans have many patterns - this is just one of them. (lol)
    Koriani - Guardians of Forever - BM Huntard on TB; Kharmic - Worgen Druid - TB
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